26 FebEpisode 42 | Let’s talk about dog breeding with Cherrie Mahon of River Valley Doodles

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A few years ago, after years of volunteering at rescue organizations and owning both shelter pups and purebred dogs, Cherrie Mahon, a professor of business in Rochester, New York, did something that'd change her life forever: She got a Goldendoodle. Cherrie fell in love with the breed, and pitched an idea to her mother, a school bus driver who was looking for a retirement career: Maybe they could start a family business breeding doodles? In the years since, Cherrie, her mother, her sisters and a few cousins have been in the business of bringing fluffy dreams to life for hundreds of happy families. But there are plenty of moments that haven't been so... golden. Cherrie and Annie have an honest discussion about the way people acquire dogs, the science of good breeding, and the emotional rollercoaster of rearing puppies.

Transcript:

Annie:

Hi, my name is Annie Grossman and I'm a dog trainer. This podcast is brought to you by School for the Dogs, a Manhattan based facility I own and operate along with some of the city's finest dog trainers. During this podcast, we'll be answering your questions, geeking out on animal behavior, discussing pet trends, and interviewing industry experts. Welcome to School for the Dogs podcast.

**music**

Hello humans. Thank you for listening. I am here with my seven week old baby, Magnolia. Again, I've tried to figure out times where I could podcast where she is not going to interrupt with adorable baby noises, but I've decided to just go with it. And so, I now have a little grunting cooing, occasional co-host who might just be the youngest podcast host out there. Also, perhaps the only nonverbal one. If you're enjoying School for the Dogs’ podcast, please do subscribe on iTunes while you're there. Leave a review and give us a five star rating. It's a good way to let other people know that this is something worth listening to. And if you're on Instagram tag us in your stories or in your feed, send a DM. We love to hear from you.

Today, I am talking to a breeder of golden doodles. Now, I don't really know that much about breeders. Most of the time when we get dogs, puppies at School for the Dogs, they are no longer with the breeder, of course, they're in their forever homes. So I had lots of questions on the brain about breeding, and I wanted to pose them to the right breeder. And this led me to see about having a conversation with Cherrie Mahon who is the owner, or one of the owners of River Valley Doodles. I first discovered River Valley Doodles because, and this happens occasionally where at School for the Dogs, we'll have one dog after another of a certain breed who is just a fabulous dog. Just one sort of adorable, smart, easily trained dog after another.

And this happened with River Valley Doodles. I think the first dog that we had from River Valley was Neptune who is a large, very sweet dog who we've actually done a bunch of commercial work with. I'll link to more about Neptune in the show notes. And gosh, who else did we have? Then we had Bo who is a golden doodle who belonged to a client who actually had an older golden doodle that they got from a different breeder and had had some issues with and specifically, I think sought out the best golden doodle breeder they could find. And then, gosh, off the top of my head, we had the dog named Bedford who was wonderful, Luna, Jules, we've had–anyway, we've just had a lot of great dogs from River Valley Doodles and I thought, you know, this is a breeder who must be doing something right. Or maybe she's just really lucky. I didn't know. But it was after we started getting all these doodles from River Valley who were so great that at some point, I reached out to Cherrie and said, please make sure to refer us if you have any River Valley Doodle clients in the New York city area because we love working with your dogs.

So I think what you're about to hear will be really interesting to you if you're interested in golden doodles of course, but also if you're just interested in why someone would become a breeder and what that involves. Now, I refer to golden doodles as a breed. I should say technically they're not a breed in that most people think about breeds as purebreds. Now, of course, all dogs have been bred from a variety of other kinds of dogs. So it's sort of a misnomer to call any dog, a purebred dog or “pure” breed. But there are AKC registered breeds, most of the breeds that you've heard of are AKC registered breeds–Scotties, Westies, poodles, corgis, et cetera. And, every year some new breeds are welcomed in by the AKC. The golden doodles and, and as far as I know, all the dogs that are poos and doodles, cavapoos, shihpoos, Labradoodles et cetera, have more recently been called designer dogs.

But I think all dogs are basically designer dogs in that they were created from two different kinds of dogs with different backgrounds, genetic backgrounds, breeding different crosses. Golden doodles are not considered a breed. Cavapoos, all these doodle poos are not considered official breeds. That doesn't, in my experience, makes them any less coveted. There are lots of reasons why people like to have these poodle mixes and it's possible that one day they will be so sort of indoctrinated into our society and into our dog's society that they will be considered breeds. But at the moment they are not. And I mention this mostly just because in this conversation we refer to the dogs that Cherrie breeds as dogs of a certain breed. So I wanted to explain that they technically are not a breed of dog.

Also, I think that a conversation about breeding with a breeder who breeds dogs that are one of these AKC acknowledged breeds would probably be a very different conversation. Cherrie–and we do touch on this a little bit–isn't breeding dogs that are meant to conform to a certain standard. Some of her golden doodles and the other kind of doodles she breeds are larger than others, smaller, darker, lighter. They often have different kinds of hair and fur, but because there is no breed standard, this is not an issue to her or to the people who buy dogs from her. Breeds that are AKC registered breeds have breed standards, which means it's written down in a book. This dog needs to be, have ears of this kind and hair of this kind and a nose that is shaped like this and ears that are shaped like this, et cetera, et cetera, in order to, be considered part of this breed, at least from what I understand, part of this breed that is good enough to continue the line of Dobermans, or border collies, or whatever. So those are just some points that I wanted to mention and I'm, I'm glad to be sharing this conversation with you.

Cherrie Mahon:
Hi, I'm Cherrie Mahon, and I am one of the owners of River Valley Doodles, which is a doodle breeder in Rochester, New York. And it's a family operation.

Annie:
And how long have you been the mama?

[laughing]
Cherrie:
The mama, yeah, mama see, probably six and a half years now. Almost seven.

Annie:
So you breed golden doodles but also other kinds of doodles too, right?

Cherrie:
Mostly golden doodles, but we just started sheepadoodles, which is sheepdogs and poodles.

Annie:
Okay. And about how many puppies do you put into families a year, would you say?

Cherrie:
Anywhere, probably around 50. And we have been doing it for six or seven years, so we have quite a nice community.

Annie:
And how many dogs do you have that are yours or–Do you have dogs that are yours and dogs that you breed or?

Cherrie:
Yes. Yeah. So I have, everybody's a pet, so we don't have anybody in a kennel facility. Everybody lives in one of our homes, so it is a family affair, so there's seven of us. Everybody has a different number, but, I have three. My mom has eight, and the sisters are about that number too. So I'm really just trying to manage, you know, who gets along the best with each other. And of course you have to be careful about having males and females together with cycles and whatnot.

Annie:
So how did you get into this world?

Cherrie:
It started out as just a small hobby to help my mother out. She wanted to retire. So she was a school bus driver and she also painted houses. So, you know, a lot of physical work that was just getting too much for her. So I got a golden doodle and I was in love with him and he's 10 now. And I've always had rescues, and then I had a Great Dane and a couple of boxers. So having a golden doodle with, you know, not as much vacuuming was really a huge thing, but plus, you know, super smart. And just a joy to have around. So I talked her into starting this as something to do to help supplement and help her into retirement. And it just, then all of a sudden the sisters got interested and involved, and my two cousins, so everybody jumped on. You know, this is in the very beginning was only just two foundation dogs. So this is grown quite a bit over the course of six, seven years. So.

Annie:
So how did, like how do you start out like, okay, I'm going to breed dogs. Where do you get the first Adam and Eve dog?

Cherrie:
Well I, I studied first. I've read a bunch of books, just about everything I could get my hands on. You would be surprised how much breeders know over vets when it comes to neonatal and understanding bloodlines, because they were studying poodle bloodlines before anyone even understood differences of, you know, mixing European lines and American lines and inbreeding and things like that. There's also a lot of breeder forums and it's gotten better and better with the advent of more technology and social media where information is shared. And anything that comes up that's an issue–it's really, for the ones that are working hard to do a good job, they're really interested in issues that come up and how they can make breeds better.

Annie:

So you really kind of had to give yourself like a mini education in genetics it sounds like.

Cherrie:
Yes. Yeah. Oh, I think it's really, really, really important. There's so many things that you can eliminate from your bloodlines if you just did a DNA test and tested for any diseases that can be tested for, that are inheritable. For example, PRA–Progressive Retinol Atrophy. If you breed a carrier to carrier, 25% of your puppies are gonna have eye issues by the time they're five years old and it's, you know, a $75 test, why wouldn't do it to not just protect your bloodlines, but also protect your reputation?

Annie:
And that's something any breeder could be doing.

Cherrie:
Yes, yep. And a lot of breeders that are putting forth the effort to study and to be on the forums and to learn are starting to understand the importance of genetic testing. And they're really, really trying to push also the testing companies to just start testing, having tests for more things that dogs could have. You know, there's not a test for cancer, but I think the Embark test now covers 168 inheritable diseases amongst dogs.

Annie:
So you got your mom involved and then your sisters and cousins and nieces and nephews, right? But you were saying before we started recording, you were saying that in your earlier life you had been very interested in rescues.

Cherrie:
Yup.

Annie:
So how did you make that transition and how do you–I ask cause I think there are a lot of people listening who would probably be surprised by that. I think that rescue and breeding or are and you know, opposites of each other.

Cherrie:
Yeah. I started out working with rescues by doing transports. I also had adopted a couple of rescue dogs. They were young–

Annie:
Transports is transporting from like the South to here?

Cherrie:
Yes. Yep. Helping drive.

Annie:
From [inaudible] kill shelters, too?

Cherrie:
Right. Exactly. I also adopted a couple of rescue dogs and they were great. I had a lot of fun with it. It was really my first dog without the family. And I learned a lot. I went to the trainer, I went to training classes and things that I never did before with family dog. Never actually went to training classes with the family dog. So, it was really, really great experience. But volunteering exposed me to some of the background on the rescues that kind of put a bad taste in my mouth about working with them. So.

Annie:
Working with the rescue dogs or working with the rescue groups?

Cherrie:
The rescue groups. And I felt sometimes they were misleading on the rescue dogs and you know, assessing personalities and things like that. For the most part it's really, really well intentioned people. But they, with that said, they want these dogs to have homes. So they won't always be honest if the dog has a bite issue. So probably I’ve been bit a dozen times by rescue dogs. And for me it just wasn't something I wanted to work with between, you know, the people and also the heartbreak sometimes of the dogs in their situations.

Annie:
OK. I can appreciate that. I know as a trainer, I see often the extremes of either a rescue group, or of a dog who, yeah, all the information isn't being disclosed or it's not necessarily a good match. The dog maybe shouldn't be in the city, the dog shouldn't be in a home where the dog is going to be left alone, or the dog has special needs and things aren't being disclosed because there's just eagerness to get the dog into a home. And then the owner falls in love with the dog and now has to become basically a dog trainer in order to deal with the dog’s issues, or has to, you know, embrace some serious lifestyle changes.

Or the other side is, like too many hoops that they make an owner have to–I mean, I think, I think that it's a bell curve and there's lots of good rescues, right? Good stories like in the middle. But on the extremes I'm talking about, you know, the other side is rescues that set up so many hurdles, that they don't want a home that doesn't have a yard or they don't want children or a home that has children or they don't want this, that or the other, where maybe the dog really would be better off, especially when it's puppies, I often feel like the dog would probably be better off in a home, rather than in a kennel somewhere waiting for a home. Even if it's not, you know, the absolute perfect home that the rescue group is dreaming of. Better off getting them in a place early.

But I've certainly seen plenty of dog owners who've suffered from either side of the extreme, and often who just end up, you know, going to a pet store. “We didn't want to be on a waiting list for the breeder, and we couldn't get a dog from a rescue. And, and so we just went for, you know, the cute pup at the pet store.”

Cherrie:
Yes. That's interesting. I didn't think about that, about why people buy at pet stores.

Annie:
Well, it's quick and easy, and I think you feel like… I mean, I got my dog at a pet store. It was 14 years ago. I think it's not the choice I would make now being, you know, a professional. A dog professional. [laughs]

I mean, I know at the time that what I told myself, which I'm sure lots of people tell themselves is “this dog needs a home as much as any other dog needs a home.” And now I see that the problem is more that it's supporting an industry. Its not so much about the dog that I got–the money I paid. The problem is a larger problem having to do with an industry that's not necessarily treating animals right. But anyway. We got sidetracked. You were talking about how you were working in rescue and then…

Cherrie:
Yep. Was working in rescue, raising a couple of rescue dogs, having a lot of fun with it. And I think that was my aha moment of how a crazy dog person I was and how obsessed I had come to be anyway with dogs. Certainly had family dogs growing up, but these were my dogs. So, I went in all away. And when they passed away, I actually got a couple of purebred, I got a Great Dane.

Annie:
What made you get a purebred after that experience? And did you go to a breeder?

Cherrie:
I did. Yup. I wanted a really big dog. I really, I've always admired Great Danes. And he was great. But of course they don't live long enough, you know, being a large breed.

Annie:
How long did he live?

Cherrie:
Eight years. Yeah. I was hoping for a lot more than that, but he was a great dog. But that exposed me to the idea that pure breeds tend to be susceptible to certain diseases or issues within that breed. So, the vet folder I had on him was probably five times the size of any rescue, which were mixes, dogs. And then my boxer, the same thing. Was always going to the vet. And I don't think it was, you know, poor breeding or anything like that. I think it was just, just, things that run in the breed. And you can't make the fact go away, that a Great Dane, it's highly unusual and rare to live over 10 years old.

Annie:
Well, if you picked, I mean even with humans, there have been cases in humans of inbreeding. Basically any time you pick one thing, one criteria, one physical criteria to breed for whether it's size or eye color or, I mean if you tried to breed, humans that looked exactly like Gwenyth Paltrow, [laughing] by breeding closely related humans, eventually you would get weirdness, right?

Cherrie:
Right.

Annie:
Isn't that kind of what's happening? I mean the amount of inbreeding you need to get to get dogs of every generation that look the same as well.

Cherrie:
There are some breeds that have big issues with inbreeding, for example, poodles in the US. A lot of it's because people will want to breed with the same champion. So you know, so and so won one champion this, and that's the one stud that they want to breed with. So, you know, X amount of poodles, then will be bred with those lines, and then you know bred to one that's super similar, and they have issues with inbreeding for sure. But they do also have reporting within the AKC section of poodles. They have to report that percentage on their AKC records.

Annie:
Okay. Huh. That's interesting.

Cherrie:
I am concerned about conformation for sure, because there's a longevity to it as well. So, you know, a great example would be corgis, stout bodies and short legs, and it's a lot of weight for those short legs to handle. And if you could be careful about how you breed a mommy and daddy to, you know, work towards a good conformation that has longevity to it, that has proportions. That's one of my goals, is making sure that there's a decent conformation in that aspect. But the con is–

Annie:
But not conformation to a certain breed standard.

Cherrie:
Right.

Annie:
Cause with doodles, there is no–

Cherrie:
There's no breed standard, right. Yep. So, you might look for something like a sport body, but I don't–the con is, when you have breeds that are breeding for really huge underbites, and they love that, you know, like the Bulldogs, these huge underbites. But then you get, they do it so much that they have dogs that have trouble chewing.

Annie:
Right.

Cherrie:
Or, exacerbating something that isn't for the longevity of the dog, is the con. Something that's purely for looks.

Annie:

And, so when you chose Goldendoodles as a breed to, or I guess they're not technically a breed, but. Let’s call it.

Cherrie:
We’ll call it one for now. [laughs]

Annie:
When you chose golden doodles, was part of it that you were trying to stay away from purebreds?

Cherrie:
Yes. Not that I don't love them because I do, you know, I love boxers and Great Danes, I always have a huge affinity for them. Certainly not longevity. I mean, boxers are known for bone cancer, Great Danes for all sorts of things. But that's what got into my mind was, you know, I didn't have any issues with my rescue mixes when it came to that and health. So I started looking into what was this thing called hybrid vigor and I learned an awful lot. There's a scientist that did studies on mixing wolves and poodles and she did this whole study on all these different lines of generations and it was really interesting.

Annie:
Wolves and poodles?

Cherrie:
Wolves and poodles. Yup. And another breed that I don't remember right now. And she got some really, really interesting results because each line that she bred differently showed a different manifestation of the genes. So like F1 is what we would call 50, 50, one parent being, we'll say golden retriever, one parent being poodle. You get a very consistent looking dog. It's very 50, 50 if you were to run DNA. But if you were to run other lines, so let's just say an F1 back to a poodle, you're going to have 75% poodle and 25% golden retriever. If you do the next line, which is called multi gen, some call it F 3, some throwing other numbers–

Annie:
It would be like F 1 to F 1

Cherrie:
Yep.

Annie:
Why is it F? I’ve heard of F1, F2, F3, but I never know what the F is for.

Cherrie:
Familial– F A M I L I A L, so it's a terminology for breeding lines and family.

Annie:
OK. So F one to F one would be like a Goldendoodle to a Goldendoodle? And then that would produce an F two?

Cherrie:
You got it. Yep. F2. When you throw in the B, that means a back cross. To usually a poodle, but some will back cross to golden retriever to get more retriever traits. But once you get into the multi gen line, that's where really interesting things happen because you don't get consistency anymore. And you can get some that look more poodle, within the same litter, look more poodle, and some that look more golden retriever. And if you were to run DNA, you're going to see slight differences even though they have the same parents. And studies have shown that the very first generation, so the F Ones, 50%, 50% have the highest level of hybrid vigor, because when you're mixing those lines of breeds, it's hard at that point to inherit issues that either one has because it's 50, 50. But once you get one that leans more towards the other, 75% we’ll say, or 65%, they have a higher likelihood to have the issues that each breed would have.

Annie:
So how do you define hybrid vigor? I've never heard that term before.

Cherrie:
Hybrid vigor means that your vet file is a lot smaller [laughing] when you have a mixed dog versus a purebred dog.

Annie:
Basically, another way of saying healthier?

Cherrie:
Yes. Yup. Healthier. I believe there's dozens of scientific studies done not just by this scientist, but other scientists that have shown that hybrid vigor–like I think it started with the vet saying, “Wow, this is amazing. We never see the mixes in here for anything.” And then, “We're always seeing Brittany Spaniels for this. We're always seeing boxers for bone cancer.” And once we start recognizing that pattern, they've started doing the studies and it really has shown to be a thing. Hybrid vigor.

Annie:
So are all your dogs then F1s?

Cherrie:
No, it's all different. So we have, a lot of breeder start with the foundation lines being F1s, golden retriever to poodle. And then the next one that they tend to, I would say graduate to, but that's not the right word. Move to, it would be F1b, and they'll back cross to a poodle. Because people asking for these dogs want the non shedding as much as possible. And F1s will lightly shed. Some will even–

Annie:
Isn't it true all dogs shed? That there’s no such thing as a totally non-shedding dog?

Cherrie:
It is true. No such thing as a hypoallergenic dog. There is no such thing as a non-shedding dog. Whether they have hair or fur, something's gonna fall off of them. So.

Annie:
And some people also are allergic to the dander, or the saliva.

Cherrie:
Or the saliva, right. Yep. So whenever I have somebody asking, then they mention, my son has allergy issues, my husband has allergy issues, and you know, that's why we want one of these dogs. I always say, wait a minute. As soon as I see on an application, that allergies are an issue in the house and that's why they want the dog, we have a conversation. And I see how severe the allergies are. And I've also tried to gauge a person's, a family's propensity to handle light allergies because most of us are allergic to something. Dogs bring in dirt, so, could be allergic to something like that. If I hear it’s severe allergies, I pretty much tell them, don't get a dog. Um, not even a poodle because you could be allergic to a poodle. With that said, I have had I think in six, seven years now, only one returned because of allergy issues. And there was a four year old in the house that they didn't know was severely allergic. And they had one that was 75% poodle, an F1b.

So it was very, very big surprise for all of us. And it was a terrible situation for all of us, including the puppy to get bounced around. The four year olds daughter cried, you know, the puppy had, it was behind all of a sudden, three, four weeks on training because he got bounced, and…

Annie:
Well, one thing that I tell people about choosing a breeder, and I'd love to get some thoughts from you on how people can vet a breeder. But one thing I tell people is you should have a breeder that's willing to take a dog back no matter what at any time in its life. Would you, would you say that that's–?

Cherrie:
I would say that that's true for the most part. I wouldn't say that it's always fair to the breeder though. It's not the breeder’s fault if you didn't get a trainer in the very beginning. It's not breeder's fault if you didn't socialize–

Annie:
I don’t mean that it’s the breeder's fault if anything goes wrong with your dog. But that it seems to me like most breeders would want to have their dog back before they have a dog put into a shelter, or…

Cherrie:
Absolutely, like that's always what I've done and what I would do, because we've definitely had people that called and say, wow, we didn't realize how hard it was to raise a puppy. You know, what do we do? And then I'll take the puppy back and find a home. With that said, it's only been six or seven years, but if somebody called me and said, I have a 12 year old dog, that's biting people. You know, yeah, I gotta take the dog back, but is it fair for me?

Annie:
Right. Right.

Cherrie:
You know, I didn't have the dog for 12 years. So I think for the most part, yes, absolutely. Something that a breeder should do, especially when you're talking about the first couple of years of a puppy's life, they should have a concern for their puppies, y

Annie:
So where did you get your first dogs then?

Cherrie:
A little breeder up in upstate New York, Willow Green. And then, Utah Annie's Puppies is the sheepadoodle lines. So we really love them.

Annie:
And they agreed that it was okay if you breed their dogs or?

Cherrie:
Yes. So we have the conversation in advance and we actually pay additional fees. So we pay a breeding rights fee.

Annie:
And what about your dogs or your dogs? Do you get people have to sign something saying they're not going to breed her dogs?

Cherrie:
I do. And it's not–some people, you know, might think that's a competition thing and that's not it for me. It's more, I want people to do it with–like educated, and, just don't think like, Oh, it's easy. I'm going to breed these dogs together and just get these cute puppies and sell them for X amount of dollars.

Annie:
Right. Well, I definitely want to talk about what is what's actually involved and in breeding puppies, but…how would you define different kinds of breeders? I've heard the term backyard breeders, commercial breeders. How would you define yourself? And other kinds of breeders.

Cherrie:
So backyard breeders are, in my definition, somebody that doesn't know much about breeding or the breeds that they're working with and says, “Oh, I want to try to make a little extra money. I'm going to breed my dog with the neighbor’s dog or my aunt's dog.” Without learning much about either breed, or about genetics and DNA. Commercial breeding, industrial, or puppy mills–large scale kennels, I'll say, which aren't necessarily puppy mills. In most of our views, they probably are, but, they might still take very good care of the dogs and still be a large kennel. They just have a ton of employees helping them out. You know, it wouldn't be my choice of a breeder to go to, but, for some people it's, you know, it's a lot of options and it gets them a dog now, they don't have to wait.

There's this mid level, I would say, that does like a lot of dogs that are in homes. And, whether their system is that they have guardian homes–

Annie:
Is this how you would define yourself?

Cherrie:
Yes. Yeah. There's quite a, I would say this is where the majority lie though. You know, we hear the bad stories about the puppy mills and, everybody gets their options, usually from the large, industrial kennels, we'll call them. But the ones that are really interested in learning about the breeds and seem to be also thinking about socialization and making connections with their customers are the mid-level type breeders, hobby breeders.

Annie:
Would you consider yourself a hobby breeder?

Cherrie:
I would, yes. Yes, I’m a hobby breeder.

Annie:
And you said that there is regulation, then, you get visited by the state?

Cherrie:
In New York state there's regulation on breeders, and you have to apply for a license and you get inspected several times a year without notice. So in New York state, they have that program, which is really great because there's also, they have standards for the care of adults and puppies in the house and, or kennel. And, it's everything from, you have to have bleach on hand to clean, the dog food has to be in closed containers, puppies can't be sitting in poop. Animals have to have an exercise plan. It includes cats too, that's why I said animals. So if people are breeding cats, you also have to have this license. If you breed more than, and sell more than 25, nine to 25 puppies a year, depending on where you fall at within their other regulations is, depends on if you have to have this license or not in your state. So I think it's really been great for New York breeders, even though it's, you know, a little bit of a pain, you gotta deal with the paperwork and people randomly showing up. It really, really, I think has helped keep puppy mills down in New York state. And other states don’t have that.

Annie:
Are there red flags, are there things people should look for to know that they shouldn't contact a specific breeder if they're doing a search that could tip them off to a being a puppy mill? Are there certain states people should avoid?

Cherrie:
Yeah, there's actually a puppy mill state list. If you Google it, it comes up with the top states for puppy mills–Pennsylvania, Missouri, off the top of my head are right up there. I wouldn't say all of the Amish listings are puppy mills, but they have been red flagged certainly for not having proper care of their animals. If I see an ad that says, you know, no calls on Sunday, that sort of is a red flag to me, you know, is this an Amish or Mennonite that, you know, can't take calls on Sundays.

Annie:
By and large, they have a bad rap in the breeding world?

Cherrie:
They do, especially Lancaster, Pennsylvania. It's been in the news quite a bit for the Amish Mennonite community in that area having puppy mills and just deplorable conditions. My stomach's actually turning thinking about some of it.

Annie:
It's interesting that that's a community that has taken on that industry, and not doing it well.

Cherrie:
Yeah. I've heard of some, I've met a lot of great dogs that came from Amish or Mennonite families, and I've heard of people who have been there and that they had a great experience. But I personally don't, you know, probably have the capability to go digging through their barn to see what they're hiding, to make a judgment on that. So I said, why bother even going to any of them?

Annie:
One thing I've told a dog owners is a red flag is if a breeder wants to meet you in a parking lot or meet you halfway on the highway.

Cherrie:
Yeah, that's interesting.

Annie:
It seems to me like you want to be able to go to a breeder’s home, see where the puppy was raised, meet the dog’s parents, if possible.

Cherrie:
Yeah. I mean, I understand that. And so if you can do that great. I would, there was, a good friend of mine was actually murdered, and they answered a puppy ad that she had and they came to her house and murdered her. And stole all her puppies. Yeah.

Annie:
Oh my God. In New York?

Cherrie:
No, no. Google it, it probably comes right up. And there's many breeders–

Annie:
So this is like a reason why you wouldn't want someone to come to your home.

Cherrie:
Right. And there's breeders now on the breeder forums that are starting to complain about, you know, people being really strange and showing up at the house. And there's people that have had dogs and puppies stolen. It’s…I totally get it, but I would, I would also understand if a breeder wasn't comfortable with having you come to their home. It's a tough balance. I mean, I don't have a great answer for it.

Annie:
No, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that side of it.

Cherrie:
Yeah. And it's getting worse. And I don't know if it's cause of, you know, Craigslist is actually having an active, like, I don't know people that buy puppies on Craigslist, but apparently it's a thing and you don't have to prove that you own the dogs at all. You have no relationship with that person. You call them up and you buy the puppy and they disappear. But they could have stolen them. And it's a real thing that's happening. And breeders are starting to get more scared.

The other thing is, if you have small puppies in the household, they're very, very susceptible to getting parvo or lepto or any colds or flus that people can bring in on their hands or shoes. And it's a real thing. I could–probably like 50% of my breeder friends have had young puppies that die and they had people visit the house.

Annie:
Do you have people come to your home then, or how, how do you deal with that?

Cherrie:
I do, but here's where I think that breeders could get better, I guess, more comfortable about it. I have an application and you have to fill it out before I'll even call or email. And it's a little bit of work, but address, name, phone number. And you really, really get to know their thought process. And if people were coming to steal the puppies, they’re probably not going to spend the time. It probably takes a good hour to fill out my application. There's easier targets than somebody that makes you fill out an application before they'll even get ahold of you. And I also, you know, it lets me get to know them and I figure, you know, if they're willing to share their home information, I'm going to share my home information with them. But I don't have my address or phone number on my website. I don't feel safe doing that at all.

Annie:
Do you have like security cameras in your home?

Cherrie:
I did two years ago when this happened to my friend, I installed security cameras at the house. It's scary.

Annie:

I hadn't thought about that. The Craigslist puppy thing that you're talking about, but that that's certainly one reason to avoid buying puppies on Craigslist, although I could think of some other reasons. Wow. So There almost needs to be like a another place where people can meet the puppies, like a YMCA or like a church basement!

Cherrie:
Yeah, yeah.

Annie:
But you also bring puppies to people's homes.

Cherrie:
Yes. Yep, I usually give people the option. Either, you know, come visit or we'll do a delivery option. So many people have met us by now that if you get a referral from your sister that met us and came to the house and saw everybody, you're probably more likely to get–

Annie:
You’re probably not an axe murderer.

Cherrie:
Yeah. You're more than likely to say, I'll take a delivery.

Annie:
And your puppies usually have waiting lists, right?

Cherrie:
Usually yes.

Annie:
So what's like a typical wait that somebody might have to expect to have to get one of your puppies?

Cherrie:
We used to be two years and managing those lists drove me crazy, so I stopped doing that. And I said–and I know most breeders here in New York state anyways, are doing waitlists out a year or two. And I said, I can't, I just can't manage it because things would happen. Mother nature would happen. And instead of six puppies that we’re expecting, maybe only one was born or maybe a breeding didn't work out. And then I was calling people that were on the list and ended up people crying or mad and, you know, things didn't work out. And it just kept breaking my heart to say, you know, something didn't work out. And they prepared, you know, they went and bought stuff and their kids were excited. And you had this waitlist that you manage that didn't work out for them. So now I only do the season before, so a couple of months. When I'm pretty sure somebody is pregnant and we're going to have puppies, I'll start a list. So the wait period right now is, two to six months.

Annie:
And the cost is around $3,000. Is that about right?

Cherrie:
It depends. Yeah. Anywhere from two to three. Our mini lines are more than our large standards.

Annie:
Okay. Another thing. And you can tell me what you think of the suggestion that I give to people is that if you are talking to a breeder and they're willing to haggle with you about the price, that that's probably a bad sign because it seems to me, and again, I've never raised puppies, but it seems to me like the profit margin for a good breeder–It's not huge.

Cherrie:
Yeah.

Annie:
It costs a lot to do it right.

Cherrie:
I have no idea how these–you know, I see the listings, Greenfield puppies, which is a puppy mill, a broker listing for Lancaster area. And they do a ton of puppy listings and like $800, $500. I have no idea how they do that. I mean, between like the healthcare for the parents, if you're feeding good dog food, good puppy food. If you're having people help you clean and you're keeping everything as clean as you can, it’s expensive, you certainly break it down by the hour, it's like pennies. I have no idea how they're doing it. Health testing too, and if you're being ethical and paying for breeding rights like you should, it's very, very costly.

Annie:
Like you said, you're a hobby breeder. I mean, I imagine it's kind of like my aunt who is a knitter and worked at a knitting store to help pay for her hobby.

[laughing]

Cherrie:
Yeah. That's how I feel sometimes, that the hobby pays for my dog life. Yes. My dog fund. But yeah, it's far more expensive than people realize if you're doing it in a way that, I wouldn't say that is good, but is premium. So, you know, good food, good healthcare. I have been to the emergency room a few times with neonatal puppies and I'm just so upset about them being sick or something. I'll be like here, take my money, and they’re just shocked because they don't ever see a lot of neonatals, you know puppies under six weeks old because breeders don't bring them in. So if you have a breeder that's willing to…

Annie:
They just let them die?

Cherrie:
Yup. Yep.

Annie:
That's, that's a whole part of breeding that I can't imagine handling, I mean, if you're breeding puppies, some puppies are gonna die. Right?

Cherrie:
Some puppies are going to die. Yeah. There's a percentage. It was 12% or I think it's 12… I don't know. I saw this percentage of, you know, how many puppies die within the first couple of weeks and it's, you know, it's, it's a real number. I always thought we're not going to be that number. We're never going to have that. And, you know, things happen and have puppy born, coming out backwards and it doesn't get, you know, the air.

Annie:
What's that like for you?

Cherrie:
It's really hard not to get emotional about it. I actually recently had a puppy get pneumonia at three, four weeks old and it was…it was terrible. I took her to emergency and I was sick to my stomach and I had her there and I just felt so helpless. I didn't feel like they were helping me there. And I was like, take my money, fix my puppy. And she had pneumonia. Um, and she, she passed away in two, three days and, um, I'm, I'm still upset about it. And it's been almost a month now. It's, it doesn't get easy. It really..it's, you know, it's an issue. I guess it's, if they're also one that you see that, you know, opens up their eyes and has a soul and was ready to take on the world,that's way harder than, um, stillborn. I mean, not that that still isn't hard. But it's, it's not easy. I actually, that's when I quit, I just tell my mom and my sisters, I'm like, I quit, I can't do this. And it's, it's the toughest part.

Annie:
Do you deliver the puppies yourself? Do you have a vet there? How does that work?

Cherrie:
Yep. We do ourselves. You know, my mom does hers and my sisters do theirs, but yeah, we don't do the vet. It's not standard. Nobody really does. If you have issues, then you go into the vet. But it's a very natural process for them. The aspect that, their hormones kick in and they have these natural instincts to take care of the puppies very quickly. If there's issues, you can go into the vet and get C-section and maybe have some help with bringing on contractions. But it's different for dogs. It's, you know, of course you're having, well say four to seven versus one! But it's not, you know, what we see of humans having dogs.

Annie:
Even a step before that, talk to me about how, how we get them pregnant. Is it all artificial insemination at this point? Is there like a sperm trade business?

Cherrie:
[laughs] There is actually! If you have a little daddy dog–you should always have a bigger mommy than a daddy.

Annie:
That makes sense, ok.

Cherrie:
[laughs] But if you have a little, little daddy, then you should probably do artificial insemination. So you don't, uh, hurt the little daddy. And, um, there, there are–

Annie:
You don't set up stools?

[laughing]

Cherrie:
No! And artificial insemination is exactly what you think it is. Um, maybe TMI, but you know, Turkey baster type things. And the vet can do that for you or sometimes breeders I know how to do it themselves. I don't do it. And it depends on what size you're aiming for, with your puppies. Dogs are different in that they don't have cycles every month. They either have a cycle every six months. It could be every eight months or it could be once a year. So they, that is also the only time that they can get pregnant. They cannot get pregnant in between there. So, it's a very, very limited window of just a few days a year.

Annie:
And do some of your dogs conceive naturally?

Cherrie:
Yes. Yeah. If they're about the same size, they conceive naturally and…

Annie:
So just put them in a room together and put on some nice music and…

Cherrie:
Yes! That's exactly what we do. Yup. And the, I don't know how other breeders’ daddy dogs are, but our daddy dogs are very considerate gentlemen, so.

[laughing]

It's romantic for them.

Annie:
[laughs] What does that mean?

Cherrie:
So we have like Winston, my mom's mini sheepadoodle, he’s like a mini medium-size, about 35 pounds, and he's such a lover [Annie laughs] and he's just gotta, you know, make out first before, and they have to go on a date and they have to play a little bit, and he sorta courts her, and they make out first and it's, it's really cute.

Annie:
Aww!

Cherrie:
Yeah.

Annie:
So after they're born, what's the next step? What are the first, I mean, usually people get their dogs. Do you, do you have a certain age, eight weeks, 10 weeks, 12 weeks?

Cherrie:
Usually eight to 10 weeks.

Annie:
How are those first eight weeks broken up for you?

Cherrie:
Yeah. This is actually really interesting to talk to you with, because…I always wonder like where trainers come up with some stuff. So, people will ask me, what's their personality trait, and they’ll ask me when the puppy is like three weeks old. And I'm like, well, the puppy hasn't done anything yet.

[laughing]

Annie:
He nurses.

Cherrie:
Yeah, sleeps and maybe waddles around a little bit, maybe. And then right around four weeks, they start waddling around a little and playing and they learn voices, but they still can't see you all the way. They look at you and you can tell, they just sort of look over your shoulder or something. And, you know, five weeks old are starting to become, you know, what I call “real” and by six weeks, I'm like, finally, you're like a real puppy. You're not a hamster or gerbil anymore. And I’ll have people that I'm talking with, they're interested in the puppies and they'll ask me questions such as, well, how much potty training do they have? And it's like, well, they really only poop and pee by themselves, before they go home, for about three weeks with us. So mommy helps them in the beginning.

Annie:
Licks their butts, cleans them.

Cherrie:
Yep. Yeah. So we, you know, we do the best we can, but we only have like this three week period that we can work on them with that. And it's, luckily they have a lot of natural instincts to, want to be clean. So that really helps with potty training naturally. But, we also have a balance of trying to be considerate with their health. So, it's not safe always for puppies to be outside. So to say, Oh yeah, we're going to, you know, have him fully potty trained outside by eight weeks old, you know, might not be practical, especially if it's February or January.

Annie:
Well also, your outside is not necessarily the outside of the home that they're going to, right? Like your dog might, your dogs might be house trained to go on the grass in your yard, but that's not necessarily going to translate on the streets of New York City. That's something that I have to tell dog owners a lot. You want a house trained puppy, you want a trained puppy, but it's not going to be trained to your home.

Cherrie:
Go down on the cement.

Annie:
Or anything in your home. I mean, unless you train it to understand what life is like in your home. Anyway. So yeah. So the first few weeks you were saying.

Cherrie:
Yeah, the first few weeks they don't really do much of anything.

Annie:
And how much care do you have to give them or is the mom kind of doing everything? The first few weeks.

Cherrie:
Yep. Mom's usually doing most of it. My job is to sit there and to play with them and pet them and make sure that they are nursing. If they're not nursing, then we have the bottle feed and if know, one looks to be like, you know, not doing so well, we have to be bottle feeding every two hours. We have to really be on top, which could get really exhausting. But.

Annie:
So what do you do when you go to work? Do your sisters pitch in or can they be alone for some time some parts of the day?

Cherrie:
Yep. If we have puppies at our house we pretty much don't leave. If they're, you know, under four weeks old. Anything could happen. I mean, once or twice, we've had puppies, even though they were four weeks old, you know, that got sat on by the mom. So pretty much don't leave–no trips, vacations or anything. You've got, you know, a very, very limited time period. You can put a camera on them, but it doesn't take long to accidentally sit on a puppy and suffocate. So.

Annie:
Do they, do you give them each alone time? I've heard, I've heard of that as something that's suggested. Is that a truth?

Cherrie:
Do you mean the mommies or the puppies?

Annie:
The puppies.

Cherrie:
Um, if I have them longer than eight weeks, I will start to do things like that. When they're puppies, I do things like play with their ears and their paws, handling them as much as possible. I'll play music. Once in a while, bang things, I'll even vacuum near them so they can get used to those noises.

Annie:
Well, I think just having them in your home, in your living room or wherever, like, even if you're not purposefully doing that kind of stuff, just the sound of the refrigerator opening and then people coming in and out, and the telephone ringing, all of that's invaluable.

Cherrie:
Yeah.Yeah. And they're also learning from each other at that time. Learning how to play, learning how to, um, what pain points are, because they're gonna be pretty rough with each other. And that's how they start to learn anyways, bite inhibition. So it's really great that they have that playtime with one another too. Um, alone time. If I have a puppy that I'm, you know, working on a little bit for somebody, I'll do in the evening for just a little bit at a time. But for the most part when they're eight weeks and under, it's just trying to get different experiences for them that are still safe.

Annie:
Do you ever take them out out of your home?

Cherrie:
I will have them in the yard if it's nice weather. I get nervous though nowadays taking them even to the vet. Parvo is a huge issue and it's very contagious. It's just like the flu. I mean, anybody could have it on their hands and touch a puppy or have it on their clothes and they get it. So I'm very nervous about taking young puppies anywhere. If I'm keeping one longer, I wait until after at least second set of shots. So that usually tends to be around 10, 12 weeks old. Which kind of goes a little bit against what, you know, some trainers say, some trainers are like get the puppy out immediately.

Annie:
Well, it’s a fine line, what we suggest, which is the American veterinary society of animal behavior suggestion, is getting them out early 10 days after their first round of shots. But to do it thoughtfully and to avoid places that are heavily trafficked by dogs unless, you know, like we sanitize specifically for puppies in our space before every puppy session. But Petco is not doing that in the aisles.

Cherrie:
Right.

Annie:
And even vet offices aren't doing that every hour.

Cherrie:
No, there's no way they are.

Annie:
So I suggest to people like, you should bring your puppy out, but most of the time they should be carried. They should be in a bag. If you are going to put your puppy down on the street, which I suggest, you should be, you know, making sure they're not licking things and you should wash their paws as soon as you come inside, you should take off your shoes when you come inside, wash your hands when you come inside. So it's, I suggest early socialization before the second round of shots, but with a lot of caveats.

Cherrie:
Yup. I do the same for people. I was just telling, um, so in about, you know, always carry the puppy in a bag or a case or something so they can see things, and do not put your puppy down on the floor at the vet, and do not put your puppy on the table if you haven't seen them disinfect it. So, and I've said if trainers–

Annie:
I think a lot of dogs get sick in the waiting room at the vet’s office.

Cherrie:
Yep, that’s usually where they get parvo. And if trainers don't ask, for group training, don't ask for your vaccination records, they're not asking anybody else. So don't use those ones.

Annie:
I think the best solution is bringing your dog out in a bag.

Cherrie:
Mhmm. Yup.

Annie:
Because you're, you're protecting them, but you're still exposing them to the sights and the sounds and everything that you want them to get used to. What are other breeder responsibilities would you say?

Cherrie:
You know, I would say the thing that especially that kind of makes my heart sink, I guess when I'm thinking about puppy mills…This is really, I think, you know, the reason why you should pick a breeder that has some thought process and care in their program because it's not just the puppies they care about, it's the adults. And you know, everybody's like, Oh, I got, you know, puppy from, but I didn't, you know, they have a barn full of puppies. And you know, I was like, well, you know, the parents could be stacked up in a bunch of cages in the barn. And, so as a breeder, like I feel like one of my number one things is the adults. And I actually had the vet recently ask me, you know, if you had to make a choice, if there was a labor, a dog having puppies that was going bad, do you want to save the mom or do you want to save the puppy? And, my heart started always twisting, and I'm like, I want my dog. You know, and a lot of breeders are like, I want my money, I want the puppy. And I want my dog.

So yeah, I mean, parent care, adult dog care, is huge. It's proper nutrition and making sure they have their vet visits. Are they on monthly heartwormer, because all those things also build immunity system of the puppies. So you have to have really good records too, keeping track of who's due for what.

Annie:
If someone's looking for a dog, do you suggest that they call rescue groups first? Shelters? Do you think they should go to a breeder first? What's your…

Cherrie:
Yep, good question. I think that they should call around for rescues first and visit the shelter.

Annie:
Are there like doodle rescue groups?

Cherrie:
Yup. There's doodle rescue groups. There's not many, and I believe the primary one has a lot of rules and regulations, so you have to have a fenced in yard. I believe kids can't be under the age of five in the household. You have to have carpeted stairs. Things like that, that are good for thinking about the safety of a puppy or a dog, but also, they don't want these dogs to be rehomed again. And I would say the few times I've had dogs rehomed, it's almost always people that have kids in the house because, you know, they don't understand like how hard it is. Puppies and kids together. And those puppy teeth and you know, kids don't have any idea yet of personal space, you know, on the dogs.

Annie:
So you would suggest going and rescue first and sort of seeing what's out there?

Cherrie:
Yep. See what's out there. I mean, cause you never know, what you're looking for might be available. I wouldn't say that it's often exactly what you're looking for will be available, but I mean, why not take a look first? Why be in a rush? You do have to, you know, have a conversation with the rescues about temperament, and perhaps even why the dogs in a rescue. But if something's there that you're looking for, I mean, certainly go that route, before, I mean, we don't want to fill shelters.

Annie:
What about shipping puppies? Is that something that you do or do you think it's not a good idea?

Cherrie:
I don't, I just don't see the reason why when you could come on a plane and take your puppy back with you, and then you get to meet me, and I get to meet you. And I also think that it's very questionable or what's going on in the cargo or the belly of the plane. And, I don't think I've ever shipped a puppy. I mean I get emails from people like, “Oh, I live in Brazil,” you know, “I'll send you money immediately if you send me a puppy.” And I'm like, no. Like I don't need to send my puppies out of the country either.

Annie:
And when people give you applications, are there things on the application that make you be like, no way Jose?

Cherrie:
So my application is stacked towards trying to get people to understand how hard it is for a puppy. So I'll ask questions like, are you able to take the first week off of work when you get a puppy? That doesn't totally, rule you out if you can't. But if you tell me you have a plan to take care of the puppy the first week and to help introduce the puppy to you, I'm more open minded to it. I just don't want to hear like, no, I can't make any sacrifices for getting a brand new puppy. The other thing is like, do you really have the capability to exercise a puppy or dog at least four times a day? And those are answers that I really listen to. And if I hear we just want a puppy that, you know, just snuggles was on the couch, I will say I just don't think it's gonna work.

Annie:
And you have a waiting list so you can be, you can afford to pick and choose I guess.

Cherrie:
Yeah, that's really, really helpful cause I've thought, I mean on the breeder forums I hear from other breeders complaining about the people that got their puppies, and I have to say like, it does matter if you have the ability, you have other people waiting so you can say no.

Annie:
Do you see yourself continuing doing this?

Cherrie:
Good question. In my family, like my mom and my sisters, my two cousins, are super interested, and they don't deal much with the people part. Um, I do most of that.

Annie:
Are you like the face of River Valley?

Cherrie:
I’m the people person.

Annie:
Where did the name River Valley come from?

Cherrie:
My mom where she lives, she has Genesee river in the back of her. So she lives in kind of like a little Valley. Yeah. My heart gets broken really easy and I… I quit all the time. “I can't do this anymore,” you know, if, if a puppy, you know, dies or, um, but yeah, I quit all the time. I am not quitting right now, but, three weeks ago I quit. I was, you know, upset a couple of weeks ago.

Annie:
Yeah. So it's interesting. I mean that as announcer, I would guess that losing puppies would be the thing that would push me over the edge. And it seems like that's, that's not so far from the truth.

Cherrie:
Yeah. I think the people part can make a lot of breeders want to quit too. Maybe not necessarily–luckily with doodles, I really think we get people that are looking for a specific type dog, but you know, rottweiler breeders might have other types of people.

Annie:
Do you think, I mean it seems like there's a doodle craze that's not going anywhere. It seems like–have you seen an expanded interest in doodles? Because like at School for the Dogs I would say half of our dogs are either French Bulldogs or doodles.

Cherrie:
Oh really? Interesting. Um, I haven't seen it slow down at all. I actually think people are starting to get more interested in different types of doodles. Whoodles–wheatens and poodles, you know, different, anything based off of a poodle mix, people are really getting interested in. The demand is there particularly in urban areas because you can get a size that makes sense for where you're living. And also, you know, you don't have to worry a ton about shedding. I wouldn't say no shedding. And for the most part, like they're happy go lucky puppies that really adjust well to the city. And so these people go to the dog park and they're chitchatting with everybody else there and comparing notes. And then next thing you know, the person that you talk to wants a golden doodle too, or, you know, another type doodle mix. So I think it's the nature of people meeting people that they like their dogs of.

Annie:
And they're good apartment dogs by and large.

Cherrie:
Yup. Yeah. Good apartment and good city dogs. It just shocks me, I have breeder friends that are like, I can't believe you sell your puppies to people in the city. It's terrible for puppies to be raised in the city. I'm like, those are the best owners! They take their dogs everywhere and they go out to the dog parks and dogs have such great lives. They go do weekend trips and yeah. So I think it's great.

Annie:
Yeah. I always say also if your dog can make it here, they can make it anywhere. Right? Because they're getting exposed to such a wide variety of sounds and sights and people and experiences. If you go from that to like living behind a white picket fence, you're better off doing that than in the other direction of a dog who, you know, has like suburban dog syndrome of never seeing other dogs or people, or rarely.

Cherrie:
Right. Another red flag. You mentioned some suburbs. I added the question. Somebody wrote an article that was really good, I’ll have to send it to you, but but she basically was saying that suburban dogs she felt were abused because sometimes it's families. Oftentimes their kids are in multiple sports, so they go to work all day and then they go to the kids' sports and then they come home and basically the dog's been home all day long.

Annie:
And it’s just like a piece of furniture.

Cherrie:
Piece of furniture, hasn't had any exercise, hasn't had any engagement. And that is another red flag that I look for. Do your kids play a lot of sports? If the answer is yes, what's your plan for the dog? So it's terrible to think, like that's great, they live in a nice, you know, maybe they live in a nice, beautiful big home in a great neighborhood with a great big backyard. It doesn't mean the dog's taken care of.

Annie:
Interesting. Do people want to pay more to have a dog that's like already trained?

Cherrie:
They do. Um, quite a bit, but I'm constantly having the conversation in the beginning that a puppy, even after a month of training is not a trained puppy. Puppy doesn't go home and isn't this perfectly trained puppy.

Annie:
Of course. Which is hard for people to understand because–I was just having this conversation with an owner where I said, you know, training, it's not one thing. It's kind of like saying, well I want a kid who's educated– like, well what does that mean to you? And you know, the breeder could be training the dog in the breeder's home, but that doesn't mean that any of it is necessarily going to translate to your home.

Cherrie:
Right, right. Yep. And I'm constantly educating on that. I never make any promises. We can get them started on some things. But you have to get a trainer. I always tell everybody, it's like, please, please have one, come to your house, your home, your apartment, whatever, and do group classes because that puppy is going to bond with you. When you're in those group classes. That's when the puppy focuses on you and you know, puppy doesn't even know you until then. That moment, that bonding moment. So.

Annie:
In the group classes?

Cherrie:
In the group classes. Yeah. So just because you know, you had a puppy at bootcamp or something for two, four weeks before you got the puppy, you and the puppy need to train together.

Annie:
Anything that we haven't hit on that you think is worth mentioning?

Cherrie:
I think that, I understand why people go to the different platforms you can go to to get a puppy. Definitely, you know, think long and hard about why you want a puppy. They're not easy. And if somebody tries to push a puppy on you, why? It's something to really, really think hard about because you are responsible for making that puppy. We can say it's the breeder's responsibility, it's the bloodlines temperaments and things like that. But in reality the breeder only has from the time that they're kind of hearing and seeing to the time that they go home, which could be, you know, three, four weeks. And I always tell everyone like, you're the one that's going to make your puppy. Like, yeah, I'm going to give you the base, but you could easily mess it up. So it's, it's a huge responsibility.

I think the other thing is–buying a puppy from a pet store. So I don't, we don't sell any of ours to pet stores. We know the people, we get applications to people, we know the people where we are sending our puppies. That's my choice. That's our choice. Our family, we want to know who's getting our puppies and we want to make sure they're well taken care of. I don't want to say it's bad for any breeder to sell their puppies to a pet store. I would just say, why? Don't you want to know the people that are getting your puppy? Don't you have that little extra care concern about where the puppy's going? You might have a great, and maybe the answer is you have a great relationship with the pet store owner and there's some really great pet store owners.

Annie:
Well it, it seems like from everything you're saying, and like I said, from my suspicion of it just being expensive to raise a puppy, that considering the price that people pay at pet stores, if there's some kind of figure it's a 50% markup. I mean, I'm guessing there, but it would mean that the breeder has to be doing a lot of volume in order to be making any money at all.

Cherrie:
Right, to do that pricing.

Annie:
Are there good sites online that people can look at? Are there sites that are basically online puppy mills that you know of?

Cherrie:
That's a good question. I don't know. I think that you can find good breeders on some of the curated aggregate type sites. But you really got to dig. And, it's definitely helpful if they have some type of presence, if they have a website or a Facebook or Instagram. A lot of them aren't, you know, they don't have the skills to do a website, so they do a Facebook page group. It's really not that hard to message somebody that follows their Facebook group that maybe got a dog from them and ask, you know, how was your experience? The same thing with Instagram. I get people all the time, I'm like, Oh, I asked so and so on Instagram about you.

Annie:
It’s a good idea.

Cherrie:
It's a great idea. Yeah. Please. Like if I, if you ask me for referrals and recommendations, I give you names, like I'm going to give you the people that I know, like, absolutely love me, so randomly reach out to somebody that I don't even give you the name of that um, you know, can give you their opinion. And I think that's the best way to get references and referrals and to understand if not just the experience at hand with the dog and the puppy, but the experience and the relationship that they had with the breeder.

Annie:
And you said it's hard sometimes to let go of the puppies.

Cherrie:
It is hard. Yeah. But I've tried to coach my sisters to stop crying when they go home cause it makes people feel bad. Sometimes I fail, but for the most part I'm happy. Like I get excited when people get their puppy.

Annie:
Well cause they're excited. I used to work on the show Too Cute: Puppies and Kittens, the Animal Planet show and I would have to watch footage of people picking up their puppies and leaving and like the mom being left behind. And I would cry every time. Even though I know the momma dogs are probably like, thank God there’s no puppy biting my ears anymore. I would still get so sad! To see the puppies having to leave their mommy.

Cherrie:
Yeah, some people get sad because they're leaving litter mates too. And I tell everybody like– true, I really think this is true. Like by eight weeks old, they're sick of each other. They want your attention. That's why when you walk in and they're all jumping up like pick me up, pick me up. It's cause they're tired of each other. They want a human.

Annie:
Yeah. But the number one thing I think that's good for puppies is playing with other puppies. We have puppy playtime every day and I think it's like, it's the most important thing we do, probably, for puppies.

Cherrie:
Yeah. Not only getting their energy out, but learning.

Annie:
Yeah. Learning, I mean it helps with nipping for sure. And they learn from each other in ways that we can't teach them. And then occasionally, because we have a lot of River Valley doodles, we'll have ones that actually ended up being siblings or they find out even that there's–

Cherrie:
I try to connect with, especially siblings, I try to connect to everybody so they can do sibling play dates if they want to.

Annie:
And you have the Facebook group for all your owners.

Cherrie:
Yea, I have a private owners–we have a public one, but we have a private one too, so they can schedule their own play dates if they want to. So yeah.

Annie:
Well thank you so much. This has been incredibly informative.

Cherrie:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Annie:
And if people want to learn more, what's the best way for them to find you?

Cherrie:
Our website’s RiverValleyDoodles.com. And I also have a lot of fun with our Instagram account too, which is also RiverValleyDoodles.

Annie:
Fun dog fact of the day. Actually two fun dog facts. One, I recently learned that golden doodles were originally bred to provide low shedding versions of golden retrievers to people who needed service dogs, which is kind of kind of a cool thing. Also in Australia they are sometimes referred to as “Groodles.” Which I had to think about for a second cause I was trying to figure out where the R comes in in Groodle, since golden doodles starts with a G-O and poodles doesn't have an R in it, [laughs] but, I think it's golden retriever, like G-R, poodle. Groodle. Anyway.

And our Woof Shout Out this week goes to a Frenchie. His name is Gary or, his nickname, is Gare-bear. He is a six month old foster Frenchie who is currently living with Sahu and Michelle. If you’ve listened to this podcast before, you might've heard me mention them and their dog, Suki. Gare-bear is their newest foster. He is adorable. You can see him if you go to their Instagram account, which is a buckysfostercrew. And if you're interested in adopting a young Frenchie, you can learn more there.

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