08 JanEpisode 111 | School For The Dogs’ Trainer Em Beauprey on conformation, cats, bespoke dog walking and training trainers
Em Beauprey came to School For The Dogs in 2017 when he was working as a vet tech and running his own dog walking business. He started out as an apprentice, and went on to build SFTD's walking program from scratch, and to helm our professional program. These days, when he isn't putting the finishing touches on Born To Behave, our forthcoming free and open-source course for aspiring professional dog trainers, Em can be found doing virtual training with puppies and walking his cat on the streets of Portland, OR. Em and Annie discuss a youth spent training dogs for conformation trials, why knowledgeable dog walkers are so valuable, cat training, and more.
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Mentioned on this episode:
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Annie's 2005 NY Times article on part-time pets
School for the Dogs Apprenticeship Program
Green Grass Feeder by Northmate
Transcript:
[Intro and music]
Annie:
I am here with the wonderful, peerless Em Beauprey. Em came to us as an apprentice. What was it? Gosh, four years ago
Em Beauprey:
That was…yeah, I think it was 2016, pretty sure. 27 to 2017.
Annie:
2017, 2016. Gosh, that is almost four years.
Em:
It's, all my years in New York have been kind of just a big blur that involves a lot of dogs. So it's hard for me to put it at a specific time.
Annie:
[laughs] Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now? As far as School for the Dogs goes. And then we can maybe work backwards in time and talk about how you got to this point.
Em:
Yeah, so right now I have a couple of capacities with School for the Dogs. I am an associate trainer with School for the Dogs. So I am seeing clients. I am doing so exclusively virtually because, surprise, surprise, I am currently living in Portland, Oregon. So I am School for the Dogs I believe first fully remote trainer. Fully remote by necessity trainer.
Annie:
To be clear, we would like to have you be doing actual sessions in Portland, but because of lockdown.
Em:
Because of the pandemic, right. The eventual plan is for me to actually get some sessions on the ground and be able to do some more one-on-one training, which is great. Portland's got a lovely dog training community and I'm hoping to get more involved in it once it's safe to do so.
Annie:
And then School for the Dogs will be officially bi-coastal.
Em:
Yeah. We're going to do School for the Dogs West. But then also I am, as a former member of the apprenticeship program, I have also taken on the job of managing the School for the Dogs apprenticeship program, which I did for the first time at the beginning of this year and has been extremely educational for me. And a really interesting experience.
Prior to that, I was doing some other program management. This is the first time that I really had kind of a team of students. And we have had a fantastic team of apprentices this year. So it's been really a pleasure to see them learn and grow.
Annie:
How would you describe the School for the Dogs apprenticeship program to those who don't know about it?
Em:
So the apprenticeship program is a program that's tailored towards people who want to — it's basically any for anybody who wants to learn more about reinforcement-based animal training. It doesn't even necessarily have to be for dogs. It's for anybody who's got an interest in the science of animal training, the way that we do things at School for the Dogs.
It's a six month program. It's intended to be done both remotely and onsite, depending on where people are located. This was the first year that we had to do it completely remotely because of course our apprentice class came in right at the beginning of the pandemic. But we've done — I say this as somebody who helped to work on it — we've done, I think, a very good job of adjusting the program to be something that can map to the fully remote format.
We've been able to get a lot of really good experience for our apprentices on board. Our training team collaborates very closely with the apprenticeship programs. So our apprentices are able to shadow trainers at their remote sessions. They're able to remotely sit in on classes, they're able to even help co-teach in some circumstances in remote sessions, which has been really good.
And at this point, I mean, I'm a huge proponent of virtual learning for everybody, not just dog trainers and those who need them. But for everybody. And I'm pretty excited that we're starting to really tailor this apprenticeship program to be something that can be done by anybody all over the world. So that's my brief summary there.
Annie:
Yeah. I'm excited too, because, well, from the beginning we kind of wanted there to be a standalone online component, and a free standalone online component. That was always part of the idea. And I feel like the one upside of mass mayhem and pandemic in general has been that it's pushed us to kind of like finally get that together. And we're doing it, man.
Em:
We're doing it. We are making dog training accessible to anybody who needs to train their dog or who, for anybody to train anybody's dog. Really.
Annie:
Yeah. So maybe by the time actually this episode is up, that will actually be available. This dream project that you and I have been working on.
Em:
We’ve been working very hard to make this into something that's accessible to the whole world.
Annie:
Yeah. I mean, it is accessible to everybody, but I think it's really the Born to Behave, which is the online component that could be done remotely, and could be done separate from the rest of the apprenticeship which is going to involve more hands-on stuff. I mean, it's really, for people who are either wanting to become professional dog trainers, or are just completely super nerdy about it, I would say, right. Like, it's not definitely — I don't think your average dog owner would necessarily want to dig into it.
Em:
Probably not. Yeah, it's definitely tailored for people who, as you put it either have an interest in entering dog training as a career, or just happen to be fascinated by the science of dog training, or both which is great. Obviously.
I actually fell into the latter category, which is why it's kind of fun that I ended up becoming a trainer. Because when I entered into the program, I didn't really necessarily think that I wanted to be a trainer professionally. I just knew that I wanted to learn more about what I had been already doing for a long time. And I wanted to learn new techniques. I wanted to learn more about why the things worked that I knew worked. I knew a lot of the how, but I didn't know a lot of the why.
And the program was instrumental in giving me a better perspective on why these techniques work, why they're the best ones for our purposes. How to effectively teach them to clients and friends and other human beings in general. How to propagate them basically, and how to make training into something that is so much more mutually beneficial for dogs and humans than in my prior experience, it had been.
I came from a very, very old school training background and it was definitely enlightening to me to start using some of these techniques and just see how much different the training experience was.
Annie:
So that's a good segue. Let's hear about your history working with dogs because you used to show dogs when you were a kid, right?
Em:
Sure did. Yep.
Annie:
So how did you get into doing that? Was it like something your family did or was it just like a personal–
Em:
It was not, it was — basically the prevailing consensus in my family is that I was just kind of born obsessed with dogs. Nobody really knows quite why. There are photographs of me when I was younger than I can remember, like a tiny baby just reaching for dogs and attempting to get closer to dogs.
Annie:
I have a bit of a theory that it's like, cause you're the youngest of two, right?
Em:
Yeah.
Annie:
Tell me if you think this theory holds up. I think it has to do with being — I think often the youngest kid is the one who is interested in dogs. Cause it's like, they need a buddy and they need something to care for.
Em:
I think that that might have something to do with it. For me, it was also, so I was a homeschooled kid. And I was raised in a pretty rural area. So I didn't have a lot of interaction with other kids. I had my sibling, but I didn't really have a lot of kid friends around. But what I did have was animals. Everybody in our family had dogs and cats.
And so it was always dogs and cats, and it was a bit more natural, I think, for me to interact with the dogs and cats than it was to go try to seek out other school friends. Since I didn't really have a frame of reference for what school even was at that point. I was just very confused that all these other kids seem to go off somewhere for several hours a day.
Annie:
Wow. Were you whole homeschooled all the way through?
Em:
I was, I didn't go to school until I went to university when I was 17.
Annie:
Wow. That would have been like my dream.
Em:
Yeah, it was a wild ride. I got to tell you if you've never been in a classroom and then your first experience is in like a college classroom of 200 plus people? That’s flooding for you right there.
Annie:
Now you have to explain what flooding is to be people know don’t know.
Em:
Yes. Flooding is when you have a stimulus that you present at full force to a learner. So it might be something that's potentially alarming to them or potentially triggering to them, but you don't bother to set it at an intensity that they can deal with. You just go here it is! In all of its glory. Here is a college classroom, there are 200 people here. You've never been in a classroom before, but this is it. Go for it.
And that was definitely a pretty alarming experience for me. I do not recommend this technique for training!
Annie:
Was it your choice to be homeschooled? Was it your parents, did your parents do the schooling?
Em:
They did. Yeah. When I was little — obviously you know, you're not five years old and going, I've made a conscious decision to be homeschooled. But certainly by the time I got to be a little bit older, I did not have any interest really in attending. I went to theater school. So there was that. But theater school is not so much about the classrooms.
But it was definitely more of a — once I realized what was happening and what the difference was between my educational schema and that of other children my age, I was pretty comfortable with the setup that I had. Sounded a lot better than going to high school. Put it that way.
Annie:
Did you manage to still make friends and have a social life?
Em:
Theater school was very helpful for that. And actually so was dog showing. So I got into, I started — officially, I mean, I say officially because by the time I was four, I was already trying to train every dog that would come within five feet of me. But I think I started officially volunteering at the local shelter when I was 10, which is hilarious. They actually let ten-year-olds volunteer. This is what rural counties can do for you.
But I was able to go and just basically my job was go into the kennel, take the dog out to the dog run, throw a ball for them a few times, bring them back into the kennel. It was a high kill shelter. So it was pretty much, I would come once a week. And most of the dogs that I saw one week were not there the next week. And it was probably not because they had been adopted.
But I was very, I just liked being able to interact with the dogs and give them kind of some sort of bright spot in their day. And it was very interesting, even as a kid to see that when the volunteers who were there on the regular would come into the kennel area, the dog's body language would change completely. You would not have those frantic barking, spinning, or those anxious hiding behaviors that you would see when kind of members of the general public would come in because the dogs would recognize the people that they had seen every week.
And they would come right up to the front of their kennels and they would sit and there would be loose bodies and wiggly bodies and wagging tails and big happy facial expressions. And I think that was the first tip off to me that you could make connections for dogs even when you weren't really trying to do it. So that was very interesting as a ten-year-old.
And then from there I don't even really necessarily remember how it happened, but I remember that I got involved with somebody, one of my theater cohorts who was involved in 4-H. My family did not care for 4-H so they didn't really want me to do 4-H, but I begged and begged and begged.
And eventually I was allowed to go to — this person who did 4-H also went to a conformation handling class at a local training school. So I was allowed to go to that handling class and they said, all right, you can go and you can watch. And if you decide that it's something that you want to do, then we'll figure out some way that you can do it that's not 4-H.
So I went and of course, you know, it's a room full of dogs who are being touched by people, and I'm just sitting there like, I'm about to live the dream. I'm going to definitely be touching a lot of dogs. And that's really what I want to do with my life.
So we ended up getting in contact with a breeder of American pit bull terriers, who is in Southwest Washington. And she was also a coach who trained junior handlers for conformation handling. So she would usually have an apprentice or two at any given time of ages ranging from about 5 to about 15.
I think at the time that I got in touch with her, I was 12 or 13 and she just said, all right, great. You're going to work my dogs. I've got some dogs that I need to show, I've got dogs that I want you to train. I've got people who also need handlers for their dogs. And I ended up just being connected with this person and by networking with them, I ended up working with a whole bunch of other breeders in the area.
I showed American pit bull terriers. I showed Dobermans, I showed a pug named Pop-Tart, which is probably the best name for a pug that there's ever been. And I showed a whole bunch of different breeds.
I also started attending a class in a different area in Washington, where I would basically just go and be the dummy handler for people who were brand new to showing their dogs. The person who taught the class would just go, all right, you're not doing it right. And you need to come up here and show them what to do with the dog. Which was pretty funny because I was a gangly teenager. But just about the only thing I could do with any degree of accuracy was show a dog.
Annie:
What made you and your folks decide on an American pit bull terrier?
Em:
It was the partially because — so, I remembered a little bit of the flow of it, which was that I used to obsessively go to dog shows because I just wanted to stare at dogs all day and talk to people about dogs all day. So I went to this one dog show and at the time, my favorite breed, which is still one of my all-time favorite breeds is Doberman pinscher.
And so there was a Doberman breeder who was local to the Portland Vancouver area, and I had been saving up the courage to talk to her for a very long time. Finally, I went and I was like, I really want to talk to you about like, do you need a junior? Do you need an apprentice? And she said she didn't need anybody, but she knew somebody who did. And that was the APDT breeder.
And my family definitely had a moment when I was like, I'm going to show pit bulls. They were like, are you going to die? And I was like, I'm not going to because they're not going to kill me. I promise. They are a fascinating breed to work with as a trainer. Wnd looking back on it, I think it's just so cool that — there is a reason that some people refer to pit bulls as nanny dogs, because they really do have a level of patients that's reserved for small children. Even though I wasn't small small, I was middle school aged.
I mean, the stupid things that I was able to get away with with those poor dogs. Like I was very clumsy. I did not do things properly. And I have so many vivid memories of the dogs who I was taught on just being so patient and just kind of standing there and being like, all right, we'll wait, it's fine. Go ahead and take your time. We know that this is the only your 1000th time of doing this. We would've thought you might've gotten better at it by now, but no judgment. Just, just go ahead.
Annie:
So showing dogs and conformation, like, tell me more about exactly what that is? How would you explain that to someone who's coming from a totally different planet? I mean, I can tell you what my guesses would be.
Em:
Well, what would your guesses be? I'd be interested to hear them.
Annie:
So I've always thought of conformation — well, I guess before I ever thought about it very deeply, I was familiar with Westminster and Crufts, and the sort of best in breed. And there was that movie, like 20 years ago.
Em:
Best In Show. Yes. Best in Show. So I am here to tell you as somebody who showed dogs for close to 20 years, I am here to tell you that Best in Show is not a mockumentary. It is in fact, a documentary.
[laughing]
I have met one of those people and it is real. The whole thing is real.
Annie:
Now, I guess I think of it as kind of like, it's like this weird eugenics parade, where it's like, we're trying to — and correct me if I'm wrong and if I sound like overly judgmental, I'm also willing to be told that. But it seems to me like conformation is like, there's this specific idea of what a dog should look like that is kind of arbitrary. But based on something that's in a book somewhere about the ideal Basset hound, who should be this length and half years that are like this and you know, a temperament that is like this. And we're going to try and find the Basset hound that is closest to this arbitrary but standardized standard.
Em:
So, yeah, you're basically on the right track. When it comes to conformation. So when we judge dogs and conformation, what we're comparing each dog against is the breed standard. This is the big thing about like, Oh, well it's best in show in Westminster. Did the judge just decide that the poodle is prettier than the Doberman? How did we decide that the poodle wins over the Doberman? Poodles and Dobermans don't look anything alike. How can we say this dog is better than this dog?
What happens in conformation is that you're judging every single dog against the standard for that breed. And so the only thing — I think your evaluation is pretty spot on. The only thing that I would adjust is it's not arbitrary per se, because it's based around the original function for the breed. But the trouble that arises in purebred dog worlds is when we exaggerate certain characteristics.
So this is what happened with dogs like Bulldogs. For example. We originally bred Bulldogs for the completely barbarous and wonderfully not existent any more sport of bull baiting, which involves biting onto a bull and hanging onto the bull for as long as it took to bring it down essentially.
And a feature that they wanted to breed into the breed was a facial shape that would allow the dog to breathe without letting go. So they wanted that flattened face. They wanted the nares to be in a different place on the face than they would be for a dog who had a more pointed snout. That's how you ended up with a flatter face dog.
That being said, we don't do bull baiting anymore. And even if we did, the Bulldogs that we have nowadays would not be able physically to do that sport, because what we decided, somewhere along the way, is that that squishy face and the big jowls and the stocky body was really cute. And so we wanted to see more and more of it, and more and more and more. And so we ended up changing the standards a little bit in the current day to match more of an aesthetic rather than a function.
So it's interesting because there's also a little bit of, different breed clubs have different perspectives on the way that they want to tailor the breed standard. And actually I am hoping that we are trending in this direction, which is, it seems to be the case that a lot of breed clubs are trending in the direction of adjusting standards to match function a little bit better.
So we're doing things like, Oh, we would actually prefer these French Bulldogs to have a little bit longer legs and a little bit longer snouts because that's healthier for them. Or, Oh, we would prefer, this border Collie, we're going to prioritize their working ability over what color their coat is. Because it's more important that they're able to work a flock of geese than it is that they're black and white.
And this, when it comes to purebred dogs, the attention to aesthetic really can't come at the expense of function in my personal opinion. And I understand absolutely the draw of a purebred dog. I've had purebred dogs myself in the past, and I understand the draw of, I want a dog that I can pretty much predict what it's going to look like. I can have a pretty good idea of what its temperament's going to be. I can have a pretty good idea of what's going on with it and what its motivations are likely to be. I can have sort of a bit more of a solid frame of reference. I can definitely understand that.
But the trouble for me arises when we do select specifically for those physical characteristics.
Annie:
But what about dogs, like the purpose that they were originally bred for was to sit on someone's lap.
Em:
Aha. That's how you ended up. Yeah, exactly. Like companion and toy dogs. So I actually had a client just a few days ago with whom I was speaking about this. Which is anytime that you're working with a purebred dog, one of the things that is kind of in the back of your head is what was the original function that this dog was bred for?
In the case of something like a toy breed or a companion braid, their function was just to hang out with people all the time. So it's not terribly surprising that dogs of these breeds occasionally have things like separation difficulty, or some challenges disengaging from their people. Their whole motivation for being themselves is — I will use as an example, a friend of mine has a cavalier King Charles spaniel.
A Cavalier King Charles spaniel is the consummate companion dog. The cavalier King Charles was bred to do nothing other than be your best buddy all the time. And that was a great choice for the royalty of the time. But nowadays those of us who have cavalier King Charles Spaniels have to leave them alone sometimes. And they're not necessarily going to tolerate that quite as well as a dog who was bred to be completely independent of human beings and not really interact with them at all.
So this is a very interesting feature, because something like the feature of being a companion can be a very strongly instilled trait in a dog. Just as much as the instinct to point in a pointer, or an instinct to flush for a spaniel. The instinct to snuggle is a very strong instinct for a cavalier King Charles spaniel. That's what they were bred to do.
So as a trainer, it's important for me personally, especially if I'm working with dogs who are purebred, who come from, my clients will say, Oh, they came from a breeder. These are the bloodlines, et cetera, et cetera. It's important to me to acknowledge what the original function of the breed was, because I typically find that it's going to color the behavior of the dog and the dog's motivations in some way.
So for example, my toy breed dog, the other day, we use snuggling as a reinforcer for that dog. Because she will work to get it. She will work to snuggle with her person. A lot of dogs are not super thrilled about a lot of physical touch. This particular dog, she really would like to be held and carried. That is her favorite thing.
So if we know that that's something that she really enjoys and something that she'll work for, we can use that for training. And we can teach her polite behaviors like sitting to say please, instead of jumping on my legs, when she wants to get picked up. Or, you know, being quiet on her mat for 10 minutes before she gets to come onto the couch, or something like that.
Annie:
So as someone who's had a lot of — well actually, different question. What kind of skills did you need to develop in order to show dogs? Did you have to wear the kinds of outfits and run in the kind of way that they do?
Em:
Well, the funny thing is, so those of you who are listening at home don't necessarily know what I look like. I'm very tall. I'm very long-limbed, I'm a bit awkward looking to put it politely. But one of the great features of being me when I was a kid is, because I have very long limbs, I worked really well with tall dogs. Because it looked very dramatic. If I would move a dog around the space, like a Great Dane or a Greyhound or a Borzoi, or something like a really big leggy dog, I could really move a dog with a lot of speed and it looked very cool.
So one of the things that I had to learn was how to — the basic mechanics of showing a dog are similar for most dogs. You have, for example, the stack, which is what anybody who has seen Westminster knows what that is, where you pick up the legs and you put them into the straight little up and down alignments. So every dog is going to be stacked in roughly a similar way.
There are certain breeds that are a little bit different though. And there are some breeds that need to be stacked on a table and some breeds that are stacked on the ground. And you have to be very careful about making sure that your body doesn't block the dog from the judge. You always want the dog between yourself and the judge because you want the dog to be the point of focus, not you.
The point of a successful handler is that the judge doesn't even notice that you're there. They're entirely focused on your dog. Because you're doing such a good job of presenting your dog.
One of the things that I found was because I was a handler, so I showed a lot of dogs. They didn't have a dog of my own. I just showed dogs for other people. And when I was showing different dogs, different dogs had different levels of enthusiasm for the sport of dog showing. I had dogs who loved being shown. They would go into the ring with their head up and their tail up and they would be just completely ready to rock it. And they would run around that ring like it was the best time of their lives.
And for dogs like that, the biggest concern was even if you don't win, it has to be a really good experience for the dog. Because you could demoralize the dog. They can tell when you win or don't win. They can tell when their handler is —
Annie:
You think?
Em:
I feel like, I don't know that they, you know, I don't believe that they would think of it in terms of winning. But they can certainly read the body language of the handler. And for a handler, a win is a completely different type of body language than a loss, right? If you win you're like, woohoo! You're throwing your hands in the air, you're having a great time. If you lose you just kind of muscle up and you bring your dog out of the ring and, and you're done.
And it would, for some dogs, that's a depressing experience. It almost seemed like. They would obviously lose enthusiasm for going into the ring if they didn't get that big reinforcement of throwing a party for them at the end. So one of the things that I had to learn was to always throw a party for my dog, even if we didn't necessarily win. I would try to act like we won. Because that made my dog more excited to go into the ring.
Again, it's a similar methodology to how in the style of training that we do, we always try to end the training session on a high note. Because we always want the dog to be excited to train again. So we never want to end the training session with this feeling of, Oh, well, you know, you didn't do your best, but I guess we'll try again tomorrow. That's going to be potentially less exciting to your learner than if you go, Oh my gosh, that was amazing. All right, we're going to wrap it up for today. I can't wait to do this again tomorrow because you're amazing.
Annie:
So the takeaway is you always want your dog to feel like a winner.
Em:
You always want your dog to feel like a winner, no matter what you're doing with your dog, no matter how your feeling, you want your dog to feel like a winner.
Annie:
How do you feel about mixed breed dogs?
Em:
Fantastic.
Annie:
I'm guessing you've had a couple of doodle clients.
Em:
I’ve had a couple! Maybe just a few! I've heard of that breed.
Annie:
Because I think that like in the world of pure breeds, doodles are very much looked down upon.
Em:
Any of the hybrid dogs tend to have a bit of a bad rap in the purebred dog world. And that's, you know, in the purebred dog world, there is a relatively intense amount of noses in the air for one reason or the other. Which is not to say that there are not also amazing experiences in the purebred dog world. One of my best — and this actually applies to hybrid dogs as well.
So when I say a hybrid dog, what I mean is a breed like a doodle, so a breed that doesn't have recognition in any given kennel club, that's been around for a slightly shorter period of time. And that doesn't have, I think if I recall correctly, the technical definition is a stud book. I don't think there's a stud book for doodles, but maybe there is, I could be wrong. You can't see me right now but I’m airing, faintly off into space, thinking if I should Google this —
Annie:
Is a stud book like where you can look up —
Em:
A stud book is, yeah, it’s a register of breeding stock. So usually if you have that book, then you have foundational studs for the breed. So that tells you, these are the sires that helped to create the breed. This is really important for things like tracking genetic disease. We want to make sure that if something crops up several generations down the line, that we can go back and figure out where it came from.
So I think — I have absolutely no beef with any breed or mix or hybrid of any type of dog, because I just really liked dogs. And I started liking dogs well before I knew that there was such a thing as a breed of dog. My biggest thing with any dog, regardless of whether it's a doodle or your purebred AKC, UKC dual registered standard poodle, or your delightful curly dog who came from the local rescue in Brooklyn, is knowing why you chose the dog that you did is going to be very important to any person with a new dog.
So I think that one of the first questions that a lot of us trainers ask in session is, why did you choose this particular breed? And it's never intended to be something like, why on earth would you choose this? But it's more something like, what led you to choose this? What led you to choose this breed? What were your motivations for it? Because when we choose a particular type of dog, it's usually because we want a particular function for that dog.
So if I choose something like a doodle, the reason that I choose a doodle might be because I want an active dog. I want a dog who wants to play with me. I want a dog who's interested in having a fun, athletic time in the East river park. Or it might be because I want a snuggly dog, because I know that they're companion dogs and that they want to spend a lot of time with their people. And that's important for me. Or it might be something like, I think they look cute and silly and I want a cute, silly looking dpg. It makes me happy to have that type of dog at my home.
But I don't have any, I've got no beef against any type of dog. I think that they're all wonderful. And I think that there is a place in somebody's home for every type of dog. That being said, I myself could never have a doodle because I am pathologically terrified of wet beards on dogs.
Annie:
[Laughs] You're funny.
Em:
They completely, they just do me in. And every bearded dog I've ever worked with has just a fixation with drinking a whole bunch of water and then bringing their wet beard over to me and putting their wet beard on my leg. And it's just, I've experienced it too many times to count and I can't do it anymore.
Annie:
My feeling about doodles is they serve a function. The function is, I mean, at least the ones who are bred to have good temperaments, can be around kids and be kept in apartments, and they don't shed which people appreciate, and they’re game to be active, but they're also game to sleep in. And they're relatively low maintenance.
Em:
And that’s that function, again, that's that selecting for what you know that you want in the dog that's going to share your house. If those are qualities that you want in the dog that's going to share your house then a doodle is going to fit the bill.
Annie:
And all dogs, all breeds began as mixes of a couple other breeds, or a couple of dogs. Like, I think, from what I've read about breeds, most of the breeds that we recognize today as breeds have really only been around for like a hundred, 200 years.
Em:
Right. Usually its, yeah, a hundred years is, I believe if I'm recalling correctly, a hundred years is about the median for how long most breeds have been around.
Annie:
Which is not that long.
Em:
It's not that long. It sure isn't. And of course, as you put it, every breed started as a mix, right? There's no such thing as a breed that didn't start as a mix. Every dog came about as a combination between two other dogs, who themselves came about as combinations of two other dogs, and so on and so forth.
So all that happened is that at some point we noticed things that we particularly liked about this batch of puppies. And we decided, Oh, maybe I should breed that puppy with this other puppy to see if I can get them just a bit taller or just a bit curlier or just a bit happier. And that was how we ended up developing all these breeds.
I could probably do an entire hour long podcast just about how much I love dog breeds and how interesting I find them. I’m low-key obsessed with dog breeds. Not dog breeding but dog breeds.
Annie:
I'm interested in dog breeds too. I remember actually, after I did Karen Pryor Academy but before I was training full-time, I was working for Animal Planet as an associate producer on their show, Too Cute: Puppies and Kittens. And I remember like shortly before going into that thinking, I don't really know enough about dog breeds. Like I couldn't really identify dog breeds. I remember thinking like, it's a hole in my knowledge. Maybe I should like get a book and really study it or something.
Em:
This is such a great, I'm sorry I have to be self-effacing here and tell you one of the most weird things. I mean, there's so many weird things I did when I was younger, but one of the specifically relevant, weird things is that I had — so I obsessively collected dog books. I still do. But when I was a kid, it was every birthday and Christmas, I needed dog breed books. Specifically different books about, so they had to be the books that had the big, like listing of dog breeds and they had different pictures of every dog breed.
Because what I needed to do with those books was I needed to give them to my parents and have my parents cover up the name of the dog breed and then ask me what type of dog it was. So I basically forced my parents to quiz me about dog breeds. Like every day. As though it were going to get me into college or something. Like no, it's time for dog breed quiz, let's do it!
Annie:
That’s really adorable.
Em:
The only tangible benefit as an adult that this exercise has ever had, is there was one time when I was at a pub quiz in Manhattan and there was a round that was all dog breeds and I completely cleared the round and I got a free beer.
Annie:
[laughing] That’s funny. Well I remember having this thought of like, there's this hole in my knowledge that I need to like work on. And then I didn't like specifically work on it, but working on Too Cute, I learned a lot about dog breeds. And then obviously working as a dog trainer all these years, I've learned a lot about dog breeds. I mean, I feel like I still have a lot to know, but I feel like I could probably hold my own in a pub quiz. [laughs]
Em:
Pub quiz or pug quiz? Ooh..
Annie.
Pug quiz. Wah wah.
So. So little Em, homeschooled alone. And then you went to college and studied German.
Em:
I studied Linguistics and German. Yeah. I was double major linguistics and German. U Dub. Go dogs [inaudible]
Annie:
And then when I met you, which I know there was like some years between you finishing your official academic schooling and doing schooling with School for the Dogs, but you were working as a vet tech, and you had your own dog walking business. How did you get that point?
Em:
So I moved to New York in, let's see here. I guess that might've been 2014. And, before I left the West coast, which is where I'm from originally I had been working as a vet tech and for about three years by that time. So when I moved to New York, I took a job as a vet tech in New York City. Veterinary technology is incredible and I still, I consider myself a semi retired vet tech at this point because I don't really —
Annie:
Did you get it an official education?
Em:
I am not, I am not licensed. I am not an LVT. I'm not a CVT. When I say vet tech, I really mean more veterinary assistant. It's just, if you, depending on the practice, you'll have a little bit of interesting divisions of responsibilities. But what I really was was more of a veterinary assistant. So I did not study it formally at all. I began as a receptionist and was moved up a bit into clinics because I was interested in moving up and because I was able to build the skills that I needed to.
And so when I moved to New York City, one of the most easy jobs for me to get, and the one that made the most sense was as a vet assistant. So I did that for about a little over a year during which time I realized that vet technology was, it's a pretty stressful field. It's a nursing field, it's a medical field. It's just an animal nurse instead of a human nurse. And so there's a lot of baggage that comes along with it. It's very difficult. And I have immense respect for those who have done the job for a lot longer than I have.
But I decided that I wanted to start my own business because I saw a need in my neighborhood, which I was living in the East village at the time. And I saw a need for dog walkers and pet sitters who had a little bit stronger of a grasp of behavior and a little bit stronger of a grasp of kind of biology and physiology than a lot of the currently used services did.
And so I decided that I wanted to start my own business, which was serving exclusively the East Village and Lower East side parts of lower Manhattan. I called it Lower East Beast because I thought I was hilarious. And I still think I'm hilarious all the time.
Annie:
I think it's an awesome name.
Em:
It's a fantastic name, thank you, Annie. Every now and then I feel like I haven't accomplished a lot in my life, and then I remember I came up with the name Lower East Beats and that was a great name.
Annie:
Oh, stop. [laughs]
Em:
But so I came up with Lower East Beast. I started that company. I was able to establish a really pretty robust client base with really nothing more than word of mouth advertising, just because the East village is a very dense area. And it turns out that people really love their pets and they want somebody who's taken care of their pets who loves their pets as much as they do.
My tagline for my business used to be I'm your pet’s second best friend. Indicating that you, of course, are your pet's best friend, but I'm going to be second best and I'm happy to be second best. And I had a fantastic experience. I met so many wonderful clients and one of the things that I noticed when I was doing this work is that in Manhattan, in that really dense urban environment, there were so many dogs and cats who struggled with urban anxiety and with difficulties that were specific for that inner city kind of setting.
There were a lot of dogs who had moved to the city from potentially more rural areas. There were some dogs who had just had unpleasant city-based experiences. And one of the things that I did as a service professional was tailor everything that I did to match the behavioral needs of the dog. If you had a dog that needed to go outside just very quickly to the curb, go potty and zip right back inside, we don't want to go for a walk at all. I could do that.
And it was a divergence from the more, the more traditional New York City model of I'm taking your dog for a 30 minute walk. I'm going to be out walking your dog for 30 minutes, regardless of what happens. I never liked that model and I didn't feel like it was adaptable to a lot of different behavioral situations. And so I really enjoyed being able to provide a service that was more tailored to the specific needs of the dog and the client, as opposed to having this kind of blanket, we're just gonna do it this way type of model.
Annie:
Yeah. I walked dogs briefly, two English Bulldogs for like six months, I don't know, 10 years ago or so. Like right when we were trying to start School for the Dogs. And they wanted the dogs to go out two hours a day. Twice for an hour each time. And it was like summertime, and these English Bulldogs could not be outside.
So I would end up standing basically on the corner with these dogs, or like going and sitting on a stoop with these dogs. And I ended up, I guess it was kind of like a I quit/your fired situation. Just because, the owners were like, why are you just sitting, sitting on a curb with our dogs? And I was like, Because it's, what's right for the dog!
Em:
Yeah. It's so interesting that you say that because that was something that I realized very quickly after I started the business that I needed to make clear to clients. Was, if your dog is telling me that this is not a walk that's going to work out for them right now, I'm not going to force them to walk. I just won't do it. I'm not going to be the dog-walker who's dragging your dog around the block. That doesn't work for me and it doesn't make your dog happy.
What I would rather do is it looks like your dog needs to go potty. Okay, cool. We'll take them outside. They'll have their potty break. And then with the other 20 minutes, I'm going to bring your dog inside and we're going to play fetch for 20 minutes. And your dog is going to get so excited and he's going to have such a great time and we're going to a bunch of fetch, and then we're going to do a little massage, and then I'm going to crate him with his delicious bully stick, and then we're going to be done for the day.
And, it made a lot of difference explaining to my clients why we were making the choices that we were making. And it was very interesting because it actually did translate into my future training experience. This was the first experience that I really began to have with common techniques for managing urban anxiety.
So some of the really common techniques that we use on leash walking, like engage/disengage, or the look at that, or the eye contact heelling, all of those techniques that we use a lot when we're working with dogs who have some difficulty walking in New York City, were techniques that I started to figure out when I had my business. And then I joined School for the Dogs and realized that they're fantastic techniques that pretty much everybody who has a dog in an urban environment should be familiar with.
Annie:
Yeah. So you, you came to us to do the apprenticeship, I think.
Em:
I actually originally came into the School for the Dogs 2nd street location because I wanted to give you my business cards for my business.
[laughing]
Annie:
It was all all over from there. But you came thinking that you were gonna bring your training knowledge to your walking business to be a better walker. And then we were like, no, you need to bring your walking business to School for the Dogs.
Em:
[laughing] That's right. So in, was it 2018, the end of 2018? Or like the middle of 2018? I don't remember exactly. I think it was in the middle of 2018.
Annie:
I remember it was 2018. Cause I remember we were going to have a meeting about it, and then my dad died like that day. Yeah. It was like, must reschedule. So that was middle of 2018, I think. And then I think by that summer —
Em:
The School for the Dogs bought Lower East Beast. And that was a pretty incredible experience. By buying Lower East Beast, they also bought me. So I got to come along with the company and I got to help with the transition into School for the Dogs walking program, which is currently on hiatus.
Annie:
I know, and it's —
Em:
It’s on hiatus but I still have hope that we can reboot it.
Annie:
I do too. I mean, for anyone who's listening to this who doesn't know about our on pause, walking business, I feel like we were offering the best dog walking in New York City. And it wasn't cheap. [laughs]
Em:
This is maybe [inaudible], but I will argue that we absolutely were offering the best dog walking services in New York City. We were offering one of the only personally tailored dog-walking programs in any state or country that I've ever lived in.
Annie:
Yeah. And people would balk at the price and I would be like, look, I'm happy to recommend places that you like we'll charge you much, much less. But we charge what we charge because we offer an amazing service. And in order to offer that service, we need to pay people who are interested in being professional dog walkers.
Em:
Yeah, that was one of the challenges of the service was that the walkers that we had were so skilled, and are so skilled, that the whole goal was for them to switch into something that was more intense than dog walking. So that was what happened to I think almost every single walker that we had was that they ended up becoming trainers. And they basically graduated out of the walking program.
Annie:
Right. Right. So I guess it still does make for kind of like transient staff, but compared to your average dog — like dog-walking has never, in my lifetime been something that anybody thinks about as like a career. It’s like something you do while you're trying to become —
Em:
Which is honestly, because after having lived in New York City for five years, I would argue that dog-walking should be a career. Because I would absolutely be willing to hire a professional dog walker who has a certification in leash walking manners, or who has a certification in urban anxiety or who has a certification leash reactivity, or any of these various skills.
Annie:
Funny story. When I was like when I was writing for the New York Times. This was like a while ago now, like maybe 15 or something years ago. I wrote an article about, it was about this place where you could sort of rent pets, like rent, hamsters, and gerbils and stuff. And which I actually think is kind of a good idea. D
Em:
My dad had the idea for what he called dog share like 20 years ago, which is exactly what has become a thing.
Annie:
You know, I own the URL, nydogshare.com
Em:
Nice!
Annie:
Anyway, I interviewed this little boy for this story on like, I think we called it part-time pets. Upper East side, super wealthy, fancy family. And he was six years old and obsessed with animals, and he said to me — I said, what do you want to be when you grow up? And he said, a dog walker.
And his mother was so mortified. She hounded me, like begging me to not put that in the article, and actually called the New York Times and got my editor on the phone, which never happens. And made the editor promise that they weren't going to put in the New York Times that her son wanted to grow up to be a dog walker, I guess. Cause she was worried it would hurt his chances of getting into an Ivy league School.
Em:
This is so wild because when I pivoted from being a vet tech to owning my own business and to being a dog walker, essentially, I began with just clients from the vet practice that I had been working at. I was offering my services to them saying, Hey, I'm thinking of starting a business. I'm thinking of doing walking. You know, let me know if you need some help.
And I essentially ended up, this was one of the wildest things about it. And this was after living in New York for only a year or so. But I ended up realizing that as a dog walker, I was more or less a personal assistant to the dog. And I was able to communicate things that the clients hadn't even noticed, or didn't really have any frame of reference for it.
I was the first line of defense for things like, Hey, her poops aren't normal. Have you noticed that? Or she didn't seem as excited to come out of her crate today as she normally is. Is she not eating very well lately? Is she not feeling well in other ways or, Oh man, we had an amazing success on a walk today. She normally barks and goes crazy when she sees a skateboard, but instead of barking and going crazy, she looked back to me. And so I gave her a treat and we just went around the corner. Everything was great.
It was a fantastic way to realize that, and this is why I say that I think the dog-walker should be a skilled profession. Is because it was a great way to see that you're making a huge difference, not just in the life of the dog, but in the life of the client. And you're pretty much their way of, for these, you know, it's New York City. People are busy. Sometimes it's difficult to keep track of all the things that you need to keep track of in New York City.
And if you have a skilled person who's able to help you with the management of your dog three times a day, when they're taking your dog out for a walk, that's fantastic. And that's going to go a heck of a lot further than if you have a dog walker on board who doesn't really care that much about what they're doing, and they're just kind of taking your dog out to go pee and then bringing it back inside.
Annie:
Right. When you think about like Wag or Rover, where they're like the Uber for dog walkers, it's terrifying to think that like here you have like the most valuable thing in your life. And like having someone come into your home.
Em:
I understand the motivation behind utilizing services like Wag or Rover. I absolutely understand the motivation and they understand that there are circumstances under which that is an appropriate service to use. And I also, I used to work for Rover. I know that there are many, many really responsible and qualified professionals who work for them.
But the only thing that I would say is if you know that your dog is going to need a walk three times a day at these particular set points, and it's not like an Uber, because it's not suddenly, I found myself in need of a dog walk with five minutes notice. It's, I know that this needs to happen three times a day, no matter what.
That's the circumstance under which you need to be putting as much thought into it as you would putting into a attention for a nanny or for a house cleaner. Or for anybody else that you're going to bring it to your home on a regular basis and have interacting with living beings that are important to you. So that's, that's my standpoint. I think that services like Wag and Rover have a wonderful place in the world, but I do not agree with relying on them as a first line of defense, per dog walking and dog care.
Annie:
Yeah. Maybe it's like, like you're saying, it sort of could be like a marketplace to find someone that you can then work with.
Em:
Yeah, exactly.
Annie:
So you do not have a dog right now.
Em:
I have a cat. I have a cat named Wesley. Her nickname is Wes. She also goes by Wuzzy, Fuzzy wuzzy. And she is 13 years old. I've had her since she was about six months. I rescued her from Seattle animal shelter. They said that she was a stray. I'm pretty sure that she was just a cat that got out of somebody's house, because she was uncommonly friendly for a stray. She is beautiful. She's a tortoise shell and she's the light of her life. And I want to hang out with her all the time, no matter what. But yes she is my cat friend.
Annie:
I know she's not the most trainable of all cats, from things you've told me before, but you have done some training with her, right?
Em:
We have. And, yes. The interesting thing about Wes is that for cats, when it comes to training cats, food motivation is the biggest ticket to being able to train a cat well. If you have a food motivated cat, you are very likely to have a highly trainable cat. If you have a cat, who's not very food motivated — what’s that?
Annie:
That's the reason, one reason why cats can be harder to train than dogs.
Em:
They also, they're quicker to satiate on food. So whereas with the dog, you might be able to use 30 food reinforcers in a given session, for a cat you're probably going to use three to five and then you're going to be tapped out. And then you've got cats like Wes, she will not eat treats. She will not eat people food. I am a big fan of using people food in training of any animal.
This kitty believes that people food is some sort of trick that I'm trying to play on her. I can offer her at her with like bacon and smoked salmon and cat food. And she'll be like, those two things are garbage. I just want the cat food. So she can be a bit challenging as far as reinforcement, but what does work for reinforcement for Wes is attention and physical touch.
So one of the things that I was able to train her for was a hand target. So for dogs, as we know, we typically train the hand target with either a flat palm or two fingers. So we'll have dogs come up and touch their nose to our two fingers or a flat palm. For my cat, it's a fist. So I hold out my fist and she comes and bumps her head on it. It basically just looks like the kind of thing that you would see for any given cat of like, Oh, of course, they're going to rub their head on this thing. It's interesting.
But I've proofed it with Wes to the point where I can use it as a recall cue. So if she there's been a couple of times, she's a very adventurous cat. She likes to try to bust out of the apartment when I leave the door open. And there've been a couple of times when she has busted out and she decides that she's going to go through a little hallway party. And my technique is always keep it very low-key, and then I will give her the little sound, which indicates that she should look back at me. Once she gives me her eye contact, I hold my fist out and she will come running down the hallway and bump her head on my fist.
Annie:
That's awesome.
Em:
That is her little recall cue. And once she's done that, I give her some nice big back rubs to reinforce her for that awesome behavior. And then I scoop her up because she doesn't mind being carried. She actually likes to be held and carried. I make sure that I give her that reinforcement before I pick her up though, because I don't want to just grab her and make her feel uncomfortable with being picked up. And then once I've got her, then I can imprison her once more in the confines of my apartment.
Annie:
[laughs] Well, you also, you told me a little bit about like an emergency vet visit you had recently, right?
Em:
Yes. Yes. So Wes is a very healthy cat. She's, like I said, she's 13. But she's always been very healthy. As a former vet tech, I am paranoid about things. So a few weeks ago she started vomiting and I wasn't sure why, and that's very unusual for her. So I ended up taking her to the local vet hospital.
Which if it's all right to name drop, this is Buckman veterinary clinic in Portland, Oregon. They're absolutely fantastic. And I would recommend them to anybody, they’re a fear-free practice. They are not a cat specific practice, but they're certified in cat handling. I can't remember the terminology, but they're wonderful. Everything about them is great.
So I took her over there. The only issue with Wes is she is one of those counts who really can't tolerate crating, or being put into a carrier. I didn't have a job of carrier training with her when she was little. And so she's really averse to being put into a carrier.
But what she does know is least training. I have leash trained her because I think that it's cool to walk a cat on a leash. And I think it's cool to be able to take a cat outside without worrying that they're going to get run over. So she knows her harness. She really likes to go out for walks. So if I present her harness, usually she will come up to the harness and tell me that she's excited to get dressed and go out for a walk. So she wasn't feeling well. And I brought out the harness and said, hey buddy, do you want to wear the harness? And she let me put it on. So we got her all dressed.
Because I was nervous about taking her to the clinic for the first time. What I ended up doing was putting her in the carrier with the top of it completely open with her on her leash. So she could peek out. She didn't, she wasn't closed in at all. And I brought her over and the tech said, Oh, well, we're not really sure that we can do the leash and harness thing. We don't really find that it works that well with cats.
And I said, okay, that's fine. If you need to use the carrier that's all right. That's why I brought her in the carrier, but she does walk pretty well on the leash and harness. So I think she'll probably prefer it if, if you stick to that, if that's okay with you.
So then I go back home and I wait impatiently for news, it turns out she's completely fine. It was her kibble wasn't good. And so she was getting sick off of that, but yeah, it was just old kibble. It was a pet parent mistake. So then, they said, all right, she's doing great. You can come and pick her up.
And first of all, when I spoke with them over the phone, because of course, all of us have contactless. When I spoke with them over the phone, the DVM said you have the best cat in the world. She said, I've never seen a cat who's so chill.
I'm convinced that one of the reasons for this is because I socialized Wes the way that I would socialize a dog. So I did not make accommodations for the fact that she was a cat. I just said, she's a young animal. She needs socialization. She needs to have experiences that result in good stuff. And that's what we're going to focus on.
So I would have people over, I would let them pet her. I would let them touch her. I would make sure that they were playing with her with her pole toy, which is her favorite thing. I would make sure that they were giving her food. I would make sure that they were relaxing on the couch and letting her get onto their lap if she wanted to, and not trying to grab her or manhandled her in any weird way. I would leave the windows open so that she could hear the sounds of downtown Seattle. I would drive with her. I would put her in the front seat of the car and go for a drive around the block so that she got used to being in the car.
So, pretty much what I was trying to do is make it so that she had as many experiences as she possibly could, that were associated with good stuff. And that we're not scary. And what that led to is a 13 year old cat, who, when I went to go pick her up, the technician walked her on leash up the stairs of the hospital. And I got to watch her stop by the front desk and give the receptionist a little like cheek bump and little check-in.
And then she came out on her leash. I picked her up, gave her a huge snuggle of course, because that's her favorite thing. And then I became the crazy Portland person who walks their cat home on a leash.
Annie:
[laugh That's awesome.
Em:
Now she has a note in her file apparently there, now, that says walks on the leash, does not need to be crated.
Annie:
That's really cool. And I mean, I think that's just something not a lot of people would even think to teach their cat to do in case of having to go to a vet.
Em:
Yeah, exactly. And as a converted cat person, so I never cared for cats when I was younger. Of course, I was obsessed with dogs and didn't care for cats at all. But as a result of living with my cat for 12 years, I have realized that a lot of the same work that we'll do with dogs can be done with cats. It's all about figuring out what your pet wants, what they need and making sure that what they do to get what they want is something that you want to see from them.
So when I set up Wes’s environments, I go, well, I know that she needs to scratch on things. I know that she needs to sharpen her claws a lot. What do I know about claw sharpening? Well, I know that for cats it’s a social behavior. So I want to make sure that I've got a scratching post right next to the door so that she can sharpen her claws on something appropriate right when I come in.
And then I want to make sure that I've got another scratcher that's right next to the couch so that before she jumps up onto the couch, she'll do her little greeting sharpen on that scratching pad. And then she'll jump up onto the couch and she won't feel the need to sharpen her claws on the couch.
Annie:
Hmm. That's pretty smart.
Em:
I try to set up my entire apartment so that it's maximally accessible for cool stuff for my cat.
Annie:
[laughs] Do you feed it with work to eat toys?
Em:
My cat is not a fan of work to eat toys because she only eats wet food. It's also a little bit tough for work to eat toys for cat wet food. But what she will do is I'll sometimes put her bowl out and I'll cover it with something like a dish towel or a piece of paper or something like that. And she'll dig around it to try to knock the dish towel or the paper off of it. And then she scores her meal that way. She likes that.
And one of the other cats — I've worked with now, two or three other cats that I've trained that belong to my friends. And one of my friend's cats is such a nerd for training. He is so food motivated that they feed him all of his meals in Work to Eat toys. Just like we recommend for dogs. He only eats out of work to eat toys.\
He actually has the green grass feeder, that’s one of his. And then he also has the — it's not the twist and treat, but it's a similar one. It's like a purple treat ball that he knocks around to get his kibble out. So he has the grass feeder in the morning and the kibble bowl in the evening.
Annie:
Well, I have to go relieve my babysitter or my daughter's going to have a fit. She also sometimes eats out of work to eat twice. I got to tell you. [Laughs] With Cheerios.
Em:
I like to think of ordering delivery as a work to eat toy.
Annie:
[Laughs] Yeah. That's kind of true. But it was really great to just have this time to talk to you. And I think we should do it again soon. Next time we won't have to go through your entire life history first. I promise.
Em:
[laughs] It's okay. I'm super narcissistic. So I love talking about my entire life history.
Annie:
Oh you’re not narcissistic, you’re perfect.
[Outro and music]
