22 JanEpisode 115 | School For The Dogs’ Group Class Manager Anna Ostroff on straddling a life of theater and dog training, fostering, teaching tricks & more
Anna Ostroff is a Tony-award winning theater producer and the head of a non-profit that brings arts education into New York public schools. Somehow, she also manages to work fulltime at School For The Dogs, where she trains dogs with behavior issues, manages (and teaches) group classes, and generally keeps everyone smiling with her sunny disposition and "can do" attitude. Here, she and Annie discuss her lifelong love of animals, her foster dogs, and her passion for teaching tricks to urban dogs and helping dogs deal with fear and anxiety.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Book a session or class with Anna
Anna Ostroff’s theater company, Infinity Theatre
Episode 55 | How to train a dog to pee and poop inside
Virtual Group Dog Training Classes and Virtual Workshops
Transcript:
[Intro and music]
Annie:
So listeners, I am joined today by someone who started out at School for the Dogs as a client, and then became an apprentice and then became a trainer. And along the way became one of my very, very good friends. So I'm happy to have any excuse to talk to her. Anna Ostroff. Hello, Anna.
Anna Ostroff:
Hi, Annie. Awesome to be here today, and I totally agree. Any excuse to talk to you is also awesome.
Annie:
Remember when you first started, Anamarie was with us and it was like, Anna, Annie, Anamarie.
Anna:
We had so many A names at that time. That was crazy.
Annie:
We had Addie
Anna:
Alison Joy. We had so many As.
Annie:
Yeah. So yeah, I of course know how you winded up at School for the Dogs, but it's a pretty interesting path, I would say, especially because you have a whole other career both in your past and in your current life, which I think probably your current clients would be interested to hear a little bit about. So maybe before you start telling us about your dog life, you could tell us about your non dog life? All the things you were doing and continue to do professionally, not relating to dogs.
Anna:
Sure. Yeah. So, well, it’s hard to say like my pre-dog life, because I think animals and dogs have actually always been a huge part of my life, even when it wasn't necessarily a professional part of my life. But what you're talking about is my theater background. So I actually still, I have a theater company in Annapolis, Maryland that is run with my husband, Alan.
The name of the theater company is Infinity Theater Company. And Alan now does most of the day to day on that. And since of course COVID hit, we have not been able to do any productions, which is very sad. So we'll see what happens and where the world takes us. But before all of that, we had actually just celebrated our 10 year anniversary as a theater company, which is really cool. And we've produced shows regionally in Maryland where the theater is that we use every summer. It's just a summer theater.
But we've also been fortunate enough to produce on Broadway as well. And have been involved in a couple of shows on Broadway. We were co-producers on the Pippin revival for those who remember that, and actually won a Tony award for that production was incredibly exciting. And we also had a production that started at our theater in Annapolis, which later moved to New York to Broadway called Dames at Sea, which is a really fun musical, lots of tap dance. And we were fortunate enough to be able to be the lead producers on that production on Broadway.
So definitely a very, a different side of me than many of my clients may know
Annie:
You studied musical theater at NYU when I was at NYU, but we didn't know each other back then.
Anna:
So crazy. I know, like small world, but yes, that is true. And then another part of my life also in the theater world since actually my time at NYU, I also have a small arts nonprofit that takes arts programming to children all over New York City. And that is still going today. Although everything we're doing now is virtual, but that is another job of mine that I am still very currently involved in as the executive director.
And again, since COVID, I feel like so much has changed. All of the programs that used to go into the schools, they are now virtual programs, but we are coping just like everyone else. And that company, if anyone is interested is called Arts for All. So be sure you're looking at the arts for all in New York City. There is another one in another part of the country, which is not us.
Annie:
I was telling someone about you the other day. I think Rhonda, who you did a session with, and I was saying that you had this theater company on hold right now, but that you also have arts for all. And then she was like, and she works for School for the Dogs full time? I was like, uh huh. She was like, How does she do that? I was like, I don't know. I was like, I think she has more hours in the day than the rest of us.
[laughing]
Anna:
Yeah, sometimes I feel like I have to definitely find extra hours. And the theater company, of course, since I've been working for School for the Dogs especially, like I said, Alan has been doing a lot more of the day-to-day and overall oversight with Infinity theater. So that certainly has helped as well.
Annie:
Well, Alan is also one of my favorite people.
Anna:
He’s pretty awesome. I agree.
Annie:
You know, I think I told you, I did an episode a few weeks ago about different musicals. And when I was telling Alan about it, he just like burst into song and sang like all the lyrics from —
Anna:
Oh, it was it was from your Music Man. Yeah. Trouble. My friend right here in river city.
Annie:
I was like, I love me a straight man who can just belt out musicals’ songs. Anyway. All right. So now that we have the background and I can attest that you have a Tony, I've seen it in your home,
Anna:
Oh, I should give you for like the extra clips of this, Ginger doing nose touch to the Tony. I mean like a little spin it's hysterical.
Annie:
So, well we have to talk about Ginger too. One of my all time favorite dogs.
Anna:
She's right next to me.
Annie:
So tell me a little bit about how you started working with dogs. I know it was kind of through your work doing fostering, but I mean even just getting into fostering, how did that all happen?
Anna:
Yeah, so I have always had a huge love for animals. I mean, animals have always been a part of my life. I mean, even when I was a kid, I wasn't just the kid that had like a dog. I was the kid that had like a dog, two bunnies, five hamsters, two birds, you know, and then bless my amazing mom who actually of course ended up helping me to take care of all of them.
But I always had a number of animals. I don't know how I just missed that, two cats. I missed my two cats. Right. But so many animals growing up and I've always been just, I care so deeply for animals. And when I was a little kid, you know, I think in my mind, I always thought I would be a veterinarian when I grew up, but I obviously found another way to be very involved with animals and especially dogs.
So I initially, I guess I would say the journey kind of started with a foster dog that Alan and I had named Seymour, and this would have been probably like 2010, 2011, I think. And we were thinking about getting a dog, I guess at the time. And we were like, well, why don't we foster a dog and see how that goes and kind of help out a dog that's in need basically.
And that seemed like a better route at first, being in New York city and having a lot going on in terms of our life, we were actually just starting our theater company around that time too. So we thought, fostering a dog might be a better route right now than getting a permanent dog. And we'll kind of see how that goes. And he was definitely like my first, I don't know what to call it. Like, I guess my masterclass before I was ready to take a master class in dog training.
Annie:
How did you even figure out like where to foster a dog, like how to do it?
Anna:
We just researched different places. And I think we just kind of decided to walk by one and meet some dogs. It was kind of that, it wasn't this big thought-out plan beyond kind of knowing that we wanted a dog. Starting to research different rescues and places that were looking for fosters.
So I guess with Seymour, his home was never meant to be New York City. He was, first of all, love this dog. Still have such a dear place in my heart for him. I'll get to the part about him in a perfect home for him, but he has since passed away, but I'm still in touch with the person who ended up adopting them. We were still in touch, and he had an amazing loving home.
But basically he was a 90 pound leash, reactive dog in New York City. And as a first foster, you can imagine that that's a challenge, you know?
Annie:
Yeah. I'm surprised that a foster agency was like, take this dog.
Anna:
Well, you know, he started out as a 40 pound, six months old dog who was very sick when we got him with no energy. So it's these things that you learn after you have a dog in your home for a little while. At the time, actually, now that I'm thinking back, it's funny, cause this would have been right around the time you and Kate were starting School for the Dogs, and how I wish I knew you then.
But we were really fortunate. I'm just so grateful that my first kind of, I guess, exposure to a professional dog trainer was a force free positive reinforcement trainer. Certainly I guess I could have ended up with anyone, you know. Knowing Alan and myself, I think that we also kind of had an idea of the type of trainer we would have wanted to work with. And I definitely think just kind of our gut would have told us that anything that was really scary or forceful or mean to our dog was probably not the direction we wanted to go.
But there's a lot of trainers out there. And I'm grateful that we ended up with a trainer who was actually able to give me a more scientific look at this world of force free training.
[inaudible]
Yeah. Yeah. Drayton of urban dogs. And he's got two companies, actually Urban Dogs and Pitbull Guru is the name of the other company, which they are based out of Redbank, New Jersey. And I feel really fortunate because actually we had tried a group class with this sweet boy who was very misunderstood and it was just such a horrible setup for him. He could not handle it.
And he was a dog who wasn't just intensely leash reactive. He was also a dog who had redirect on the handler, and something really overwhelmed him. He would redirect and potentially bite the handler, you know? So he was definitely a handful. And you know, it's so funny thinking back because that group class was such a poor fit for him. And now one of my main group classes that I teach is Sidewalk Psychos, you know, and it's like, I know exactly how that class should have been set up for him to help him. It was not what it was.
But we luckily found a private trader that was a much better fit to help him out. And I thought what was also like just kind of really cool when I was working with that trainer Mo there was actually a few people who were not willing to work with for little Seymour, for big Seymour and definitely didn't want to attempt like any dog interactions or anything like that with him because he was so leash reactive.
And Drayton said, you know, I'm not sure about that, actually. I think we should see how he does in a just kind of big open place with a couple of dogs I know really well. He might just have leash reactivity and he might be okay off leash. Right. So Drayton gave him a chance and we went out to Red bank, New Jersey because there was no opportunity for Seymour to do a playgroup here in the city.
And he did really well in that playgroup. So it really was all about that leash frustration, that barrier frustration, which of course I'm well aware of now with all of the many, many clients I help with leash reactivity. And I always think back to Seymour because, even though he was a foster dog for us, and this was still significantly before I was professionally dog training, he was definitely my start into the world of dog training when I kind of looked back at my whole journey.
And ultimately we realized that we needed to find him a home outside of the city with someone really, really capable. We had him for about seven months maybe. And we found him an amazing home in North Carolina and we drove him down. We stayed down there for a week to be sure it was going to work out.
Annie:
How did you find a home for him?
Anna:
So it was kind of like this random connection. It was a friend of my mom's who had recently taken over a rescue down in North Carolina and we contacted her. And I remember she wrote us back and she was like, I think I might know just the person. And we honestly didn't have our hopes that high, but we knew that we had to try because we were not willing to return him to the rescue where we got him, because we were really concerned that if we did that he would end up in the wrong hands.
I mean, this is definitely a dog that A, could have ended up in the wrong hands, and being a dog that had a lot of reactivity could have actually hurt a handler who wasn't capable of working with him. But also he was a great Dane pit-mix we think, that was kind of our best guess, at least. And I was really concerned also that somebody would take him and try to do something awful with him, like trying to turn him into a fighting dog cause he was a big dog.
He was, like all this stuff I'm saying about him. Like he was also a very, very sweet soul, right? Like he had all this pent up energy, all this leash reactivity, but was also like a dog that we just, we loved very much. And we really wanted to see him thrive and ended up with the right person.
So yeah, so we found this wonderful person. She was great. She's also a dog trainer and she had two other dogs and the big test was going to be at her other dog accepted him because her other dog is dog selective.
And surprisingly enough, that day that we all met up, we went for a walk all together and he let Seymour walk alongside him. So we ended up having a situation where both dogs did pretty well on that initial greeting. And she's awesome. She's really careful. She brings in a lot of foster store home too. So there were times where it wouldn't just be Seymour and his two first siblings, but there'd also be like a fourth dog, which was a foster rotating through.
And Seymour definitely has issues with certain dogs, but she was really good at managing it. She had a huge, great backyard and he could run around out there with a giant fence and giant backyard that was safe. And he was really, really happy. And super sad he passed away this past few year, but he could not have had a better.
Annie:
And after that, you had Gia.
Anna:
Yeah. So then we went through a few other fosters. I won't get into all of them, but yeah, we definitely fostered a few other dogs, Misty and Maddix and Gia was a senior that we brought in as a foster. And she, we ended up adopting her because we were not going to rehome her after she had already been through so much of life and she was already a senior when we got her.
So she was obviously another huge, huge part of our life. We had her for about two years before she passed away. One of the hard things about adopting a senior dog, of course, but she had her own issues. She was amazing, amazing in the home and with Alan and I, and with some of our really close friends, but she had a real fear of strangers and of people entering the apartment. So it was really clear that she had been very mistreated before we got her.
She was in what you call a false pregnancy when we got her. So she hadn't actually had a litter, but because she had had so many puppies and it had been bred over and over and over, she was in the midst of a false pregnancy where the body essentially, I guess, thinks it's pregnant again. And she was lactating and she had definitely pretty much been used, from what we can tell, just as a breeding dog. We think she was probably very poorly treated by the people, given her mistrust of people.
God, I remember this day that I came home, and she was really good in the home. I mean, she almost never ever did anything, but for whatever reason, I don't know what it was. Something maybe spooked her or whatever, whatever reason, one day chewed up a couch cushion and which was really out of character for her.
And I remember when we came home, it was the first time I've ever seen a dog, this fearful about what I might do to them, which of course it's me like nothing. And I'm not going to do anything to hurt this dog. Right. I love this dog to death. She basically cowered so low to the ground and became so flat. Like her body was so flat. Her legs were out to the side, her head was flat to the side and she was trying to crawl away from me like flat.
And it completely broke my heart because it was such a clear sign that people had mistreated her so badly for so long. And we were just so happy to be able to give her a really awesome, awesome last couple of years of her life. And then she became family so quickly, she was just this dog we loved so much. And I think about her all the time. I still go back and look at pictures.
I still have like a primary. I think it's one of my wall photos on like, I mean, not wall, but like on my, on my phone, you've got your like two, your two photos, your two main photos and she's still on there. I've never been able to delete her.
Annie:
And now you have Ginger.
Anna:
And now I have Ginger, I can't believe it's five and a half years old, also a rescue. We got her when she was six months old and she's the best. I love her, you know, Ginger
Annie:
Like, well for one thing, you can't not love Ginger, like everybody, dogs and humans alike. But I remember when she used to come to day school, she was just like, miss popularity. Like all the dogs wanted to be her friend.
Anna:
Yeah. She's awesome. And you know, as you know, Annie with Ginger, we have other things we work with with her. Her biggest thing is that she has a lot of urban anxiety. So I did a podcast for those of you, I guess who haven't heard it with Annie, not that long ago about how to teach your dog had a potty inside.
I have firsthand experience with that because ginger does have a little specific place, bathroom that she has indoors, just so that we can cut down how often she has to go out to the scary world of sirens and skateboards and people screaming and doors slamming.
Annie:
Well, I use you as an example all the time when I tell people about how it's possible to modify the environment in order to accommodate a dog. It's not necessarily easy, but it can be done. And you're, I think, a stellar example of how you can create a world that your dog can live in within the human world that you're asking them to.
What's interesting about Ginger is she wasn't always like that. She kind of had like a shift didn't she?
Annie:
Well, she was definitely always nervous about outside. I remember the first day that we got her, she was afraid to walk home. But she definitely kind of rebounded a bit from that where she was like nervous, but could bounce back from things like she could do decently long walks and stuff like that absolutely.
And I actually, I remember the day that I think this big shift started and I've told clients about this. Cause I talk all the time as a trainer about how in adolescence, our dogs can go through these second fear periods. So we got her at about six months, so it was probably when she was like maybe eight or nine months, something like that, where there was this day that we were walking and a skateboarder kind of like flew up on the sidewalk and almost hit us.
And I just remember she just became this — like she was so afraid. I was so angry at the skateboarder because we had done so much good work, you know, New York City and getting her to feel better and safer. That day was definitely a day that kind of pushed her in this direction of more significant urban anxiety, which is fair. I mean, you almost get hit by a skateboard. I mean, I was nervous too after that.
And granted, those first six months of her life, we always talk about that primary socialization period. Even before that scary incident happened at like eight or nine months, she was not from the city. I mean, she was from the South, she's a dog that came from Georgia, I believe is where she was initially. And then when she was in foster, outside of the city with a family that had a yard and everything.
So the city was definitely kind of obviously going to be a new and stressful thing for her anyway, just kind of getting used to it, but even kind of after we had started doing some of that work to really, she sensitized her to the city and counter-condition all these scary things around the city and it had been going quite well. That one incident that I think very likely would have fallen kind of very close to probably when one of those fear periods was happening, really definitely kind of set her off in the wrong direction of how we wanted her to feel about New York City. That's for sure.
Annie:
So at what point did you think, gosh, maybe I should become a professional trainer?
Anna:
Well, when we were talking about all of those fosters and everything, the first dog was not from here, but I had been passing the Mighty Mutts adoption group, like every Saturday, for years and union square. The dogs that are often there, out there in Union square, have not been out much since the pandemic hit, but there was many years before we fostered Seymour that I was like, Oh, I really should volunteer for them. And I was just always so busy and you know, just never did it.
After we found Seymour his home. That was when I decided that's it, I'm going to start volunteering and working with dogs and more often. So I worked with Mighty Mutts for a number of years. I was their community outreach coordinator for a while. And a lot of those dogs I talked about fostering with were through Mighty Mutts, Misty, Maddox, Gia.
And I would do a lot of the adoption drives, and I was also doing and helping with some training and behavior stuff as needed, not in a professional way, just in a volunteer capacity with the organization, because I had at that point a pretty good background, just in a lot of hands on experience with dogs, with various behavioral issues. So I was doing a good amount with the rescue dogs there.
And I decided that I really wanted to get my training certification. I think initially I was thinking of it as just a way to kind of have a more professional credential. There we go. So basically when I was with Mighty Mutts, I wanted to be able to help the dogs more. And I also wanted to have just more professional credentials when I was giving out behavior advice, because I had done a ton of research.
I had been doing a lot of stuff on my own and working with a lot of dogs on my own, but I didn't have any professional training credentials at that time. And I wanted to be able to continue to help people and help these dogs and be sure the people I was working with really had confidence in the help and assistance and advice I was giving.
And so I was looking at a few different apprenticeship programs and training programs. And I guess at that time I was, that was very early on when I had just started, I think, as a client with Ginger at School for the Dogs as well.
Annie:
How did you end up coming to us to begin with?
Anna:
Because we met Tate in the dog park. And Phillip said, You guys should check out School for the Dogs. Cause Ginger and Tate were such good friends at the park. And so, yeah, so he said, go check them out.
Annie:
Well Tate and Phillip are one of my favorite dog human clients. I never know whether to call the person, the client or the dog or the client.
Anna:
Yeah, I do all the time. I change it all the time. I don't know. I guess they're both our clients, but yeah, it was so grateful that Philip — because I didn't know about School for the Dogs at the time. And I was so grateful that Phillip introduced us and yeah, Tate was Ginger's first boyfriend. So, we basically let's see, I'm trying to think. I don't remember what the very first thing was, I think it was a training session with you, Annie. Was that the first thing I did with School for the dogs? Like a private session with you?
Annie:
Well, I think, did you come to school yard?
Anna:
I can't remember. Anyway. I definitely, we did school yard for sure. But I'm trying to remember if I feel like my first formal interaction might've been with you and then maybe you recommended, Oh, I don't know. But anyway, I remember sitting at the, at our old studio. I remember being in the back room doing a private session with you.
Annie:
I remember that too. I just didn't remember the order of events.
Anna:
And so anyway. Yeah. I mean, you, I guess heard that I was looking into, you know, I mean, I guess I probably told you
Annie:
I remember you told me, you were thinking of doing Karen Pryor Academy, which I did, and I was like, that's awesome. You should totally do it. I think you asked me for a letter of recommendation and I said, of course, I'll give you a letter of recommendation, but we've been talking about putting together our own program. And if you're willing to kind of be a Guinea pig, we can try and put together a program that will cover the same territory as KPA, but also be able to offer you a lot more hands-on time with a variety of dogs.
Because having done Karen Pryor Academy myself, that was definitely like something that I felt was missing was like actually getting to like watch trainers, work in person, watch classes, and then on classes, on private sit in on private lessons and just like work with dogs. Cause we had, at that point, we'd already been doing day school, I think for a couple of years and day school, which is our drop-off program, seemed to me like such a great moment for aspiring trainers to be able to learn about training because owners aren't there and trainers are there working with dogs like two or three at a time.
So I just felt like, you know, if we could get aspiring trainers into Day school, it would be a really nice way to show them how to work with different dogs without the stress of having to be working in front of an owner. Because like it’s two different things, right? Like you have to learn how to train dogs and then you also have to learn how to communicate it to people, and learning both those things at the very same time can be tricky. I don't know. Have you found that?
Anna:
Yeah, I mean, I have to be honest that I feel very fortunate coming into this industry as a dog trainer because of my theater background. And it honestly, I feel like my life before dog training, if you want to call it that, always relied heavily on communicating with people, standing up in front of large groups and speaking. And so that's something that I feel like I was really fortunate, kind of having those skills coming into dog training because it's just a huge part of what we do. Being able to communicate well with clients.
And for me, you know, as the group class manager and running group classes all the time, being able to comfortably just be in front of a group, talking for a lot of time, and feeling confident about showing things, demoing things in front of groups. It's a big part of what I do. And also of course the one-on-one, but yes, I mean they are certainly two different skills, right? You're totally right. It's two different skill sets that you have to feel equally awesome about. Feel competent as a trainer.
And so that was what you said, Annie is definitely what's the selling point for me in terms of deciding, yeah, let's do this certification with School for the Dogs because I already really liked the people, but it had to do with that hands on experience I could have with multiple dogs. I had worked with obviously a ton of dogs through my rescue work.
And actually one of the things that I always find it so funny, I tell some of the, when we have a group of apprentices or when I'm working with someone, you know, everyone has their strong suits coming in. And for me, I remember always feeling completely confident about going in and helping with the more severe behavior cases, because this was the background that I came from.
I wasn't generally working with dogs with a lot of behavioral issues, and I was helping people who were fostering dogs cause behavioral issues or, and you know, and like most of my foster just had their various, whatever behavioral issues needed to be dealt with. They were all different.
But I remember thinking when I was doing the apprenticeship, can we just go through this like puppy potty training again? [laughs] Because it was, it's just so funny because it's like some of those really, like, I guess what we would consider the more like basic puppy stuff. That was not my background. I came from the more serious behavior issue background. And of course now I'm dealing with all dogs, puppies included, all the time and do tons of work with puppies.
But I always find that kind of funny. Like when you come in, you know, your background makes a big difference of what your strengths are and where you're the most comfortable. So yeah. So I did the certification with School for the Dogs, I guess that was back in, Oh, Annie helped me, like 26.
Annie:
I think it was 2016. Maybe like spring, you started in like spring 2017.
Anna:
Yeah. That must be it. Because then I started working for School for the Dogs at the end and like October of 2017, I feel like there must have been,
Annie:
We were so lucky to have you as like the first apprentice, because like you're such a hard worker and you're so, I mean, I feel like you helped make the apprenticeship as we went and just like absolutely gave it your all. And of course, I feel so lucky to have you on staff because you're just such an awesome person.
Jason refers to people as like high quality people. You're a very high quality, high quality person. Who's just, your word is gold. And you always have just the best attitude, and you're kind and sensitive, and all the good things. And you have the most affectionate sweet dog.
Anna:
Well I feel very fortunate to be at School for the Dogs. I love working there. I love you Kate and the staff and all my clients. And I just feel very fortunate because I remember when I came into School for the Dogs, it was so funny because when you first hired me and I was kind of doing the apprenticeship and I knew that like I might be working after it, I was like, you know, maybe I'll teach like a few classes here. And now I work there full time. I'm so glad I wouldn't have it any other way.
And so I guess I just kind of, I'm trying to like going on since then, since that, and since starting to work at School for the Dogs, I've gotten some other certifications. I have my CPDT KA certification, which is Certified Professional Dog Trainer Knowledge Assessed. And then I also have my fear free certified professional certification, which I love the work that fear-free does. For those who don't know, fear-free does a lot of work alleviating stress, anxiety, and fear in animals. And especially in connection with things like husbandry work and vet visits.
So there's also some veterinarians that are certified in the fear-free world. So fear-free veterinarians and fear-free trainers often work closely together to try to get clients feeling safe in what can be a very scary world going to the vet for surgery, checkups, shots, you know, all those things. So I've done a lot of work with dogs also now that have required special attention and affection for vet visits and with husbandry work, like naill clippings and brushing and all of that kind of stuff.
And then I also have my CGC certification, which is through American Kennel Club. I am an evaluator with American Kennel Club, which means I can evaluate dogs for the canine good citizen. I can also evaluate dogs for their tricks titles, which is really fun. I teach a lot of tricks classes and have tested a number of dogs now for various tricks titles though American kennel club, which is really, really fun. Yeah.
Annie:
And you’re our group class manager.
Anna:
Yeah. I guess that's funny. We never, I guess said what I do at School. Officially I am the group class manager at School for the Dogs and a behavior therapy trainer. Yeah. So I'm doing lots in the group class world, and lots in the private training session world. So.
Annie:
So tell me about your role as a group class manager.
Anna:
So there's lots of things that are just on the administrative end, like getting all of our group classes kind of up on the schedule, being sure we have instructors to teach those classes, training in those instructors.
Annie:
That’s something that somebody imagining the job of a dog trainer wouldn't probably guess. It’s like probably half your time is like sitting at the computer, right?
Anna:
Yeah. I mean, definitely. There's a lots of hands on time, but for all of that hands on time, we have to do the administrative work to be sure that hands-on time can happen. And I think one of the things that's also really unique and special about School for the Dogs is the time and attention we take to send really clear follow-ups to our clients.
So it's not just that, like we see a private client and that's it until the next time we see them. We see a private client. We really work out that training plan and are going through a lot of our specific training goals and exercises within that session. But then we send a really detailed written followup that really helps the client between when we see them and when we see them next to continue that work at home. So I think that even just when we're seeing our private clients there's administrative work that people don't think about on the other end of that session.
And then with group classes. Yeah. I mean, as the manager, I obviously have a lot more of the admin time because of the oversight of the group class sector at School for the Dogs, and also being sure I have time to go in and observe other group class instructors and give feedback. But I'm also at times writing new curriculum for new classes. So we have all of our classes that are always on the schedule, but then we also have some really cool like extracurricular classes that are rotating through the schedule at different times.
And I write curriculum for new classes and of course you and Kate always review those classes and that curriculum and always have great feedback too. And it's a really great collaborative effort, but yeah, I mean, classes don't just kind of appear, you know, we don't just kind of like walk in without a plan. We have really specific structured outlines and plans for classes. And we're sure that there's enough instructors that if there's an instructor out, we can send someone who also knows the curriculum really well to some in. So there's a lot of work on that end.
And it's also just a lot of looking at where the client demand is and what clients are needing at any given time, especially since COVID hit. I mean, my role changed even more because we had to move, for a period of time, all of our group classes onto a virtual platform. So there was a period of time that all classes were taking place virtual. And I remember thinking that never in my wildest dreams, did I ever think I would be teaching puppy kindergarten on Zoom, but there I was one day teaching probably kindergarten on Zoom.
Annie:
What has that been like teaching classes online?
Anna:
I think that's actually — we can talk all day about all of the bad things that this pandemic has done to businesses, people, the world. But I will say on the good end of things, specifically with my work as a trainer and with our group classes, this has been an opportunity to really grow and to get people into solid training through a virtual platform that maybe for one reason or another would not have been able to attend in person.
And one thing that's amazing is that I now have clients literally all over the world. So I've got a client in Switzerland. I have clients in Australia. I have a client in Canada, two clients in Canada. I have a client in Italy. I've had clients from all over and that's been really incredible where both on the private sector and in the group class sector, I can have clients from all over joining the same class.
And I've also really think that it's amazing how much we can get done virtually in a training setting. Almost all of our classes at School for the Dogs, with the exception of one, which I can explain, but almost every single other one of our classes has done incredibly well on the virtual platform. And clients have been incredibly happy with the results.
Annie:
And I know that in some cases, like I've heard the feedback that in some cases, like for puppies, it can actually be better to be doing it online because the puppies aren't as distracted by all the other puppies in the room. And of course, like they do not have the socialization time with other dogs so it's like a little bit more because the owner has to like work at getting that separately since obviously like they can't like put the dogs through the screen and play together, but the focus can be greater.
Anna:
Right? Yeah. In terms of learning those basic manners behaviors. Absolutely. And I also find what's really interesting is that there are certain dogs that maybe couldn't successfully be in a room with other dogs for other reasons like maybe they're really dog reactive and would never been a candidate for tricks class. But now I can have incredibly dog reactive dogs in tricks class and they really thrive.
And it's such a confidence builder and a great outlet for energy if they're a dog that can't go on super long walks because they're too leash reactive for example. But now they can do all this awesome training at home and all these cool new tricks. And they can learn, Barkour is a class that's been done virtually and in person that's another great example because we teach people how to create like in-home obstacle courses.
Then we did our iPawclass, which has been so cool teaching dogs to manipulate touch screen devices. And we have one coming up for anyone who's listening. But if you're interested in getting your dog to learn how to read off of an iPad, come check out iPaw. But in general, we've got all these classes that have really flourished both in the virtual and the in-person world.
The only class that we determined was not a good fit for the virtual world is our Sidewalk Psychos class. And that's because that class is specifically designed for dogs who are dog reactive, and a huge, huge purpose of the class. I won't say the only purpose, but a huge purpose of that class is that they are in an environment and are learning to work and feel comfortable in a space with other dogs.
So that was the one class that we determined we would not offer as a virtual offering. But yeah, all of our other classes, there's no opportunities, both virtually and in person, we are back in person, which is wonderful.
Annie:
I still wish we could figure out some way to offer a sidewalk psychos virtually, but maybe it's just more of like a seminar or something like that, as opposed to
Anna:
Well we did start our reactive dogs, we have a reactive dogs workshop. So for people who are kind of in that category looking for something virtual, when our workshop comes up for leash reactive dogs, that's kind of a good one-off virtual option to at least get some skills kind of started so that you can get working on some of that. But that's been a pretty popular workshop and at least we've been able to offer that one-off opportunity periodically throughout this time, when so much is virtual.
Annie:
Do you encounter people or, I mean, either whether it's clients or your family and friends, who have misconceptions about dog training that you have to help them move beyond?
Anna:
Yeah. I think it happens a lot with clients who have maybe come from either a different trainer or just a totally different background. And this is their first introduction into force free training, or as many people would call it positive reinforcement training. There's definitely a lot of just kind of explanation that needs to go into the training style we're presenting. And really, it's really just about explaining the science behind it. Once people understand that we're not just like, saying things because we want to be nice to dogs, which we do.
I always say, if there's a more humane way to train our animals, why wouldn't we? Like that is a easy way of thinking of it. But it's not just that, it's also that the science is there and it works better. Right? So once we can kind of talk to our clients and help them to really understand that. From what I have seen, it actually becomes really eye opening. And for most of the clients who have come from different backgrounds or unsure, or have had trainers in their life who have used more aversive methods, I find that it's almost like a weight off their shoulder when they realize there's another option.
And I think that one of the things too is we just have to really realize that people aren't necessarily like using these like other training methods because they want to be mean to their dog or they want to hurt their dog, or they want to — they've for whatever reason been told and taught that this is how you train your dog. And so I think also kind of coming at it from that perspective that they just need to be educated about the science behind force free training and School for the Dogs and how we train.
Annie:
I know that if you had told me there's science behind this, when I first started out, I would have been like Bah, there's science in dog training? It would have been completely news to me. It's so weird to like, think about how your perception can shift.
Anna:
I'll also say, another great thing about the School for the Dog's apprenticeship that I just loved is that I was actually, when I was looking for opportunities and KPA in this regard would have also been really similar, which is why I was looking at KPA as well. I was definitely looking for something that had all of the hands-on, but also had a really solid like academic foundation or feeling like it wasn't just like training your dog and all this like fluffy stuff.
I really wanted to understand the science behind it. I wanted to learn more about behavior modification and not necessarily just with dogs, but in animals and humans all allike, right. And I think that that was something that also really drew me to working with School for the Dogs and specifically the apprenticeship, because it really had that model, but it wasn't just going to show you what to do. It was also going to really kind of dissect the why behind everything.
Annie:
You know, it's interesting. I mean, I loved doing KPA. Like I've changed my life and I learned so much, and a lot of people do it when they're like pretty far into their careerswhereas for me, it was like a complete introduction. Like I went from knowing nothing [inaudible] they should have accepted me. I'm glad they did.
But I left that program feeling a little bit like, okay, now I want to read some big books. Like I wanted more of the science. I wanted more of the background, you know. It was more than 10 years ago now. So maybe things have changed, but it was a lot of reading, but it was a lot of reading of like basically PowerPoint presentations, where there was two sentences on the page.
So it would be like, a unit might have like 900 pages, but it's not really 900 pages, two sentences on a page. And I remember leaving that and I kind of knew about BF Skinner and I kinda knew related to BF Skinner, but I remember just being like, I want to know everything there is to know about like Pavlov and BF Skinner now, and really kind of tailoring my own education based on one book, leading to another book, leading to another book and sort of finding a path through that.
And also, the world of dog training. There's so many great conferences and lectures and there's so many journals. Like once you have an entree, and once you know where to look, there's so much information, you could kind of put yourself into your own kind of school forever, which is certainly fun.
Tell me about some of the fun tricks that Ginger knows. And also, how would you explain ginger? I mean, if I had to give one detail that I love, it's the way she picks up a toy whenever you enter the room.
Anna:
She does. She does. I think about that as, you know, actually clients sometimes ask me when their dogs get overwhelmed. I have some clients dogs who pick up their toys and they're like, is it okay that my dog is carrying around this ball? Or, you know, something like that. And I'm like, absolutely. Like if your dog is choosing such a polite behavior to contain themselves, that is really awesome.
Annie:
Do you think there’s an analogous thing that people do?
Anna:
I almost think of it like a pacifier with like a baby or a toddler as like a soothing mechanism, which I think it is that, but I don't necessarily think, you know, I feel like we usually get a baby or a toddler a pacifier when they're really upset, which is not the case with Ginger. She's picking up that toy when she's really excited to see someone usually, but she'll sometimes pick up her toy when she's unsure too.
Like if she sees someone like if we’re visiting my mom and it's like across the yard and she's not her sure who that is, she'll like pick up the toy, but she also does it like when Andy comes over and she's very excited. So I think of it as like for her, it's almost like I have so much emotion and feeling about this moment in time. I'm going to grab my Binky to contain myself. Right. Just to keep myself a little more under control. So it's almost like she's doing the work for me because honestly it's true too.
If she has a toy in her mouth, she doesn't tend to jump up on people. If she doesn't have that toy, sometimes she gets overexcited and jump up. There's always a behavior that we're talking about with clients. How do we instill polite greetings? How do we teach our dogs four on the floor?
And so ginger has kind of trained herself how to do four on the floor. All she needs is a toy. And so I know if somebody is coming over, I have a toy ready to hand her. So she grabs it if she's not close enough to her toy box and it really helps contain that level of emotion. It’s really cute, I really love it.
Annie:
And she also loves to touch with her paw.
Anna:
Yeah. She loves paw targeting and she loves the nose targeting, which she'll do on her own and has also led to a repertoire of tricks. But yeah, like her way of trying to get you to scratch her head again, like she'll be sitting next to you and there'll be a gentle paw on your arm. It’s so funny. Or sometimes she'll nuzzle her nose, like under your hand. So you scratch your head.
I actually just posted about this, speaking of which, in our new community app. We are always talking about how reinforcers are many things for our dogs. We use food a lot, cause most dogs like it, but it's certainly not the only reinforcer in the world. There's so many reinforcers. And so I have been training ginger to cover her eyes on cue using only head scratches is the reinforcer.
And it works really well because in the mornings she kind of does this behavior anyway. And so I've been able to capture it in the mornings and I've been able to scratch her head after, I can mark and scratch her head after every eye cover. So you can check out the video, I just posted it in the community app.
Annie:
So she covers her eyes with her paw?
Anna:
Yeah. I'm putting it on the cue “Embarrassed.”
Annie:
Well you know our student Roma.
Anna:
Yeah. I love Roma.
Annie:
Roma. Meredith at one point, I guess her father used to always say, Roma, you're just a dog. And Meredith wanted my help teaching Roma to like cover her eyes with her paw, like in an embarrassed look when her dad said, you're just a dog.
Anna:
That is so funny. I love that. That's awesome.
Annie:
So what are some of the other cute things you've taught her?
Anna:
Oh, it was so many things. So basically anything that's taught in tricks one or tricks two or more advanced tricks too. When people come and take it again, Ginger has to learn all of it. So yeah. She knows everything from things like some of the more basic ones like paw crossing, sitting pretty, give paw, nose touch. Like all of the things you can think of, rollover. All of those, just kind of things we think of when we think of dog tricks, right. A spin. She does an around the body when I cue around, she circles me.
But yeah, she also knows more complex behaviors like cleaning up her toys so I can cue a clean up and she'll pick up a toy and put it in her basket, or many toys if I need her to put them in her basket. And she can open and close drawers and doors. We have a little a drawer in one of the rooms that's stuffed with her toys and it's got a handkerchief tied on it. So whenever she wants a toy out of that drawer, she has to open it herself. And she's very good at it. Once she realized that, got her toys out and we would start playing or start something she's very good at that.
She will go on like massive scavenger hunts for like a Find it cue. I got actually be careful just said it. She might pop up. So like we can hide things literally anywhere and she will go on a full scavenger hunt around the entire apartment until she finds everything. And she, gosh, Ginger, what else are we working on? We're working right now on look right versus look left. She's got look right down really well.
Annie:
Which is actually can be a very useful cue. And that's something that like herding dogs learn directionality a lot of the time.
Anna:
Yeah. The differentiation stuff is really cool. So, you know, she's done stuff with like color differentiation and nose and foot differentiation. So she like learns her body parts.
Annie:
Part of the iPad stuff, right?
Anna:
Yeah. That's a big part of the iPad class or the iPaw course, the touch screen devices where they can start to differentiate colors on the touch screen and words on the touch screen. Differentiation of different shapes and symbols.
So yeah, I mean, so she kind of does like everything that I have to do in tricks class. I mean, I feel it's almost unending and especially since I'm an AKC tricks evaluator, they have like lists and lists and lists of tricks that Ginger periodically is working on any one of those too. So she's always got a lot of work cut out for her.
One of my favorite new tricks that I taught her. She now faints when I cue a Faint.
Annie:
Wow. How did you teach that?
Anna:
It's kind of like the first half of rollover actually. And she learned Rollover first. So actually what I had to do was get her to stop halfway. So I just started marking sooner in her rollover position when she was totally flat on her side. And now she can pretty reliably do that on cue and knows the difference between that and rolling over.
And I also, actually, I think a lot of dogs maybe learn this a little sooner, but I just recently, and she loves it. I just recently taught Ginger to do a play bow on cue, which has been really fun. I had taught a lot of other dogs that, and then it just like all of a sudden I was like, Oh, I never taught Ginger.
Annie:
Was that part of the the yoga class that you put together?
Anna:
Yes it’s part of the downward dog yoga class, which is super fun. Yeah. And so I that's actually you're right. That's what I realized. And Ginger hadn't learned it yet because I was putting that curriculum together and Ginger demos for all of my virtual classes. So she knows pretty much anything in any given virtual class curriculum for sure. And when I was going through the curriculum for that class, I realized, Oh my gosh, I've taught so many dogs to play bow. And I haven't taught my own dog and play bow yet and she needs to demo this.
So taught Ginger a play bow. Now one of her new favorites. So she knows lots and lots of fun tricks. She loves tricks training. And it's a great outlet for her because she can be a very nervous, especially with the urban anxiety. And I think tricks training aside from it just being super fun, it's also a really big confidence builder for dogs.
Annie:
Well, yeah. Cause it like gives them some control over their environment. I explain it, like it helps them improve their vocabulary.
Anna:
Yeah, totally.
Annie:
Rather than just like, you know, crying or barking or jumping, they have all kinds of different ways that they can communicate like, Hey, this is what I need. Even if they're doing it by doing something silly, it's like a way to still communication.
Anna:
I think one of my favorite things is Gilby, one of our other favorite dogs in the world. He learned to spin in tricks class like forever ago. And he demand spins. So instead of demanding barking, deman spins. Like one of the funniest cutest things in the world and I'm like, well, you know, what, would you rather a dog demand mark or demand spin? That's a pretty good alternate behavior there. But yeah, I think that tricks training, it definitely can build confidence.
I think another thing that's great about it too, is especially if you have dogs with any kind of various behavioral issues, I think sometimes guardians can just get so stuck in that, like the problem they have to fix with their dog. And I think it can get so stressful and doing something as simple as an extracurricular class. Like ipaw, Tricks, Barkour, doggy yoga, any of those things.
I think it's just also so much fun for the clients to see really tangible and fun results in these classes and while that's happening because the client is having so much fun and the dog is succeeding so well, you see the bond between the client and the dog gets stronger. And the communication between the dog and the client gets stronger.
So I actually think tricks training is great to do with any dog, but I really find some of our dogs with various behavioral issues can also really benefit from it. They might not do the best in an in-person class if their issue is with other dogs, but they could do really well. For example, now that we have them as an offering in a virtual tricks class, so.
Annie:
You're also able to give one-on-one attention because it's funny, like I know from teaching classes, it can physically be a lot of work to have to go from like one corner of the room, to the other corner of the room, to the other corner, to the other corner of it. When like you're doing virtually, like they're all right there in front of you.
Anna:
Yeah, they are. And I do like in my classes, I do one-on-one attention with each dog, but you're right. I can see them all as needed at the same time, which is awesome. But I always tell the clients in the first class that just like in an in-person class, I'm going to go around the room, you know, after I demo. That I'm going to kind of come around and help each of you with your own dogs. And so everybody really does get that really solid one-on-one attention, just like they would in person it's just from their living rooms.
Annie:
Well, Anna, I'm thrilled to get, to spend any amount of time on the phone with you. So thanks for taking this time.
Anna:
Absolutely. This was super fun.
Annie:
Just so glad to know you truly have become one of my best friends and I am honored to get to be your boss as well.
You can book a session with Anna or sign up to take any one of her amazing classes, either in-person or online by going to SchoolfortheDogs.com/services.
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