Episode 133 | Dog Training Q and A! 3/25/2021: Training a “Velcro puppy” to be more confident and independent in order to prevent separation anxiety in the future

This is a bonus episode: A recording of a live Q and A.

Join Annie Grossman for a live Q and A most Thursdays on Instagram @schoolforthedogs. Get alerted about the next one or ask a question in advance at http://schoolforthedogs.com/qanda. She also sometimes goes live to answer questions on Clubhouse. Find her there: @anniegrossman.

Today, Annie spoke to the human belonging to Penny (@heytherepenny on Instagram) about how to help young Penny feel more comfortable alone and how to start to prevent separation anxiety before it begins. Annie gives lots of tips on crate training, talks about how to create crate "FOMO," use the Treat and Train, and more. 

Join us on Instagram in April for our Day 1 of our Dog Training in 21 Days Challenge!

 

Mentioned in this episode:

Calm Canine Class at School for the Dogs

Treating Separation Anxiety In Dogs by Malena DeMartini

Episode 59 | Separation Anxiety Expert Malena DeMartini on Helping Dogs Learn To Be Alone | School For The Dogs

Recommended Training Tools and Treats

Treat & Train – remote controlled treat dispenser

The Pet Tutor – remote feeder and training tool

Crumps beef liver treats

Cloud Star Tricky Trainer Treats

 

Transcript:

 

Annie:

Hi, is this Penny?

 

Angela:

Yes, this is Penny.

 

Annie:

And tell me your name.

 

Angela:

My name is Angela.

 

Annie:

Hey Angela. I'm recording this for School for the Dogs podcast. Is that okay?

 

Angela:

Yes.

 

Annie:

And where are you guys based? Are you in New York City?

 

Angela:

Yeah, so we are, we actually did sign up for a course at School for the Dogs, which starts in April.

 

Annie:

Oh, great. Which course are you doing with us?

 

Angela:

We’re doing Calm canine.

 

Annie:

Oh, great. Excellent.

 

Angela:

Just cause Penny, she's really excited whenever she goes outside. So we're hoping that'll help.

 

Annie:

Is she a golden doodle?

 

Angela:

She's a cavapoo.

 

Annie:

Okay. And how old is she?

 

Angela:

She's six months old now.

 

Annie:

Oh, she's a little, just a tiny pup.

 

Okay. Well tell me what's going on with Penny.

 

Angela:

Well, so she basically follows us everywhere in the home. So like if she's on the couch and we get up to go somewhere, she will, even if she's asleep, she will wake up, hop down and follow us to wherever we are. My only concern right now, my boyfriend works from home, so she's around somebody all day, but my concern is just like, when things go back to normal, he goes back to work. Just because she's so used to following us, seeing us everywhere, if this becomes an issue for separation.

 

Annie:

Yeah. Well, I think you're right to be thinking about that in advance. Have you tried leaving her alone? Have you tried leaving her with anyone else? What happens when you do that?

 

Angela:

So she we've done little intervals, like maybe five, 10 minutes or something, but just like we're in another room. So we're still, you know, she'll be in the living room and we'll just go to another room and kind of watch her on the camera. She again tries to follow us. So for the five, 10 minutes, she will eventually, after a couple minutes of scratching at the door, will go and kind of like sit on the couch. But the longest that we've left her is probably like 10 minutes or so.

 

Annie:

And she cries during those 10 minutes?

 

Angela:

In the beginning.  Like in the beginning she does.  She generally will calm down after a few minutes. We just haven't pushed it for that much longer, just cause, yeah, she seems kind of like a little distressed.

 

Annie:

Can you leave her for any amount of time without her starting to freak out? Like 30 seconds or not even?

 

Angela:

She will immediately try to find us, like immediately try to find us scratch at the door, sniff around and try to find us.

 

Annie:

And have you been using a crate with Penny?

 

Angela:

We have. So she'll sleep in it at night. We haven't used it a ton during the day we had used it sometimes. For naps, we kind of have been a little bit lax about it lately, so.

 

Annie:

Does she ever go into the crate on her own?

 

Angela:

No. She does not, like we can get her to go into the crate with treats and lure her, but she doesn't love it. So even when we try to get her to go in at night, she'll try to avoid it. Like she'll pretend to like fall asleep on the couch. Like she'll automatically be like, Oh, all of a sudden can't move her legs kind of thing. So she, she doesn't love it. She'll go in, she won't scream in the crate or anything, but she just doesn't really like it that much.

 

Annie:

And and so you don't leave her in the crate like at night

 

Angela:

We do at night at night is like the only time that we really do it. 

 

Annie:

And is it in the living room with.

 

Angela:

So we leave it in the living room. We weren't sure, like she'll occasionally wake up and scratch at the crate. We weren't sure if maybe we should start leaving it in the bedroom, if that would help too. Like just being closer.

 

Annie:

Have you experimented with leaving it in the bedroom?

 

Angela:

I mean, we would definitely be fine doing it. We hadn't tried it. I was just wondering if like, if it's in the bedroom, is she just going to get used to us being like right there again? I just wasn't sure if that's like also going to get her really attached to us.

 

Annie:

I mean, when you're putting her in the crate at bedtime, is she putting up a fuss about it?

 

Angela:

No. Once she’s in, she's fine. It's just the getting her in takes a lot of effort usually.

 

Annie:

So here, here are my suggestions and you know, I'm basing these just on what you're saying. And so obviously it's on minimal information, and I've never met Penny.  But I think it's a good idea that you're thinking about how you can help her be a little bit separate from you now. Even though you don't really need to be leaving her alone at this point.

 

And I think it's good that you're using a crate, but I would suggest you maybe kind of start crate training from the beginning, and maybe also get a second crate so that she can have one like in the living room or whatever room you're spending the most time and one in the bedroom. You can get like a pretty small crate just on Amazon, not that expensive.

 

And see if you can work on making the crate a place where she is happy to be in, happy to go into.   You don't have to use a crate ever with a dog. I mean, in most cases you don't have to use a crate. But given that she's pretty small, I'm imagining you're probably gonna want to travel with her in the future, and that you've already established a little bit of a crate routine with her, I think you should go with it, but start a bit over.

 

Do you have like an open wire mesh kind of crate?

 

Angela:

It's not an open wire, I don't know if you've seen them. It's a kind tail crate.

 

Annie:

Oh, like it's like plastic cutout.

 

Angela:

Yeah. Yeah. It's got like little holes in it, but it's still kind of like, you can't see a ton out of it. 

 

Annie:

Okay. I would suggest getting a brand new crate just like a very simple, open mesh metal kind of crate. And maybe start over a little bit with the new crate, so it's kind of a brand new thing. I like a dog to be able to feel like they can be in the crate and still be part of what's going on. And I also want her to have nothing but really great associations with it, which is why it might be helpful to have a new one.

 

And simply start by putting her food in the crate. I would say every meal is possible, and when she's not looking toss some treats in the crate.  And sometimes I suggest the FOMO exercise, which is like put delicious, awesome things in the crate, and then close the door so that she can't get into it. So she's like, ah, that's the place I really need to be!  Just some of the time to like build her interest in the new crate.

 

And you could continue using the other crate the way you have been using it if you want. But I would say this new crate should be a place of extra awesome stuff all the time with the door open.  Like I want her to be choosing to go into the crate and, you know, have it next to you on the couch and drop things in it just periodically.

 

And then see if you can build up to having her in the crate with the door closed and then having her in the crate with the door closed with your back turned towards her.  You can even write down the steps of what it's gonna take for you to be able to have her in this crate. I would say work with a new crate where you want it to go. Like, you want to be able to, you know, leave the apartment for an hour or more without her freaking out in the crate.

 

So I suggest kind of writing out just what steps might look like between the very first stage, which is door open of crate with good stuff in the crate, she can go in as much as she wants, to the point of you leaving.  And break that into, you know, there might be 50 or a hundred increments that you're really going to have to work on one by one. You might find yourself skipping ahead.

 

But if you can work on it step-by-step like that, really working only to a point of success at each point, not pushing her to the point where she's going to be in the crate and crying. I think that you're going to be setting her up for success, building her confidence, rather than dealing with her stress, like having to get rid of behaviors that you don't like that are based on her being fearful, stress, et cetera, et cetera.

 

And planning those kinds of steps is a kind of thing like a professional trainer could help you do. But I often do recommend the book, she has a couple books out but Milena Dimartini is an excellent trainer who specializes in separation anxiety. I've actually interviewed her on School for the Dogs podcast before. And I forget the title of her newest book, but our other book is just called Treating Separation Anxiety in Dogs.  And even if you don't have a dog who has full-blown separation anxiety, and it just needs to learn how to be alone, I think in that book, she does a really good job of kind of breaking down step-by-step how you can set them up for success.

 

You know, some other little tips. Make sure you're putting the crate in a place in your home, the new crate I'm talking about, in a place in your home where you're going to be moving around a lot, so that she's gets used to you going to the bathroom and coming back, and going to turn off the TV.  Like motion and you sometimes being in and out of sight will become a more normal thing as you get to the point of leaving her in the crate with the door closed.

 

I also suggest putting the crate somewhere where she can't see the front door because I think dogs can sort of become fixated on the front door. When are they coming back?! And again, we're far from the time when you're going to be leaving her and going out the front door, but might as well set up the crate somewhere first.

 

But also don't be afraid to move the crate around. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I'm suggesting to get like a, a small, inexpensive, lightweight crate is so that you can bring it into whatever room you're in, whether get to the kitchen or put it on the couch with you. I've had dogs who I've been watching, and I've had I've put them on the desk or on the table next to my desk while I'm working, in the crate. I think having a small dog with a small crate kind of can allow you to do that. And will also give her a place that she'll be comfortable in if you ever do travel with her.

 

You can also do some things to build her confidence in the crate and build her confidence in general.  Training in the crate can be a lot of fun. You can click for sits or click for downs in the crate or click for hand touches. There's so many things that you can do in the crate because you literally have a captive audience.  So it can be very easy to capture behaviors, get those behaviors happening on her own that she's figuring out.

 

She's figuring out, Oh, all I need to do is put my butt on the ground and I'm going to get a treat. You can do that because she's not gonna have a whole lot of choices of other things to do. So that's another fun way to kind of build her confidence in the crate.

 

My last product suggestion would be to maybe get a Treat and Train. I really love the Treat and Train. It's a remote controlled treat dispenser. Actually. I have one literally right next to me because I've been using it with my dog, I’ll show you.  This is the Treat and Train. You can use it with dry food or any kind of smallish dry treats. Cheerios, peanuts. 

 

Angela:

And it goes in the crate?

 

Annie:

So for a small dog with a small crate, you're probably going to want to sit it on top of the crate And, you'll see when you get it, it has like a lip on it that you can take off. And when you take the lip off, the whole thing can sit on the crate and it'll drop treats in the crate. There's also a really great product called The Pet Tutor, which is a similar remote control treat dispenser that can take a wider variety of types of treats.

 

The Treat and Train is more like the old school version. The Pet tutor has all kinds of like bells and whistles and is a lot more expensive and a little bit more complicated to use. So I usually suggest people start out with the Treat and Train. Butt they're both very good.  The Pet Tutor can definitely do a lot more than the Treat and Train can.

 

But what I think is nice about either one is it's kind of like you're outsourcing some of the caretaking that so far, you've been the main caretaker. It's like you're giving her a robot caretaker that I think can actually help some feel like, okay, the humans are gone, but I have my robot. I have my Rosy robot to take care of me. Outsource some of her feelings of being cared for to the robot.

 

And it's also nice because you can literally reward her with a treat when you're in the other room or out in the hallway. And again, pinpoint the moments that she's being quiet. So if she's quiet for 10 seconds reward with a treat. If she's quiet for 15 seconds reward with a treat.  If she starts crying at 20 seconds and you know, you really need to be working within that, like 15 to 20 second range.

 

And Gene with many S's is asking, can we ever give puppies too many treats during this training time?

 

I mean, I've never known a puppy to really get like sick or fat from treats. They have like a pretty killer metabolism, but when I'm talking about treats, you know, you could use just regular dry food, right? It doesn't have to be baloney. And also whatever treats you use should be as small as possible. Like half of a tic-tac is generally a good size treat or like half of like a fingernail is a good size treat.

 

We carry Crumps beef liver treats, which we really love. They're tiny. Or I also like the Cloud Star Tricky Trainer treats, which we carry because you can break those up. They're like the size of a pencil eraser. And one of those treats, you can break up into tiny, tiny, like you can break up one of those into six pieces at least. And Zuke’s makes a similar treat that you can break up into tons and tons of pieces. But you know, I think we tend to not use the calories we're giving dogs as wisely as we could. And so when we talk about treats, it could be just their regular food. 

 

But you know, anything Penny likes is going to be a reward, so play, attention. And it sounds like attention is particularly rewarding for her. So, you could use that. The thing is when you're dealing with separation anxiety — actually, I think in the podcast episode I did with Malena, she talks about how separation anxiety, I think about how it's like a become kind of a catch all term.  Because a lot of the time it's probably like calling someone who's a little bit sad, like depressed, like it's maybe a little extreme?  But for lack of a better term, let's call it separation anxiety. 

 

You don't want to be bombarding her with attention every time you enter, or every time she gets out of the crate, you don't want to be like throwing a major party. You want to be like, kind of, being chill around her. So using attention when you're training a dog to feel okay to be alone could be a little tricky for that reason.

 

My last suggestion to you is to try and make sure she is getting some good experiences, well, certainly with other young dogs, but definitely with other people. And I know this can be hard right now because we're all still being pretty careful with lockdown, et cetera.  But as much as possible, have other people come over, feed her her meals. 

 

If you have a cleaning person coming into your house, have the cleaning person feeding meals. Have the cleaning person put things in the crate.  Have your neighbor come over and feed her in the hallway. Whatever you can do to help her feel good about people in the world other than you I think is probably smart at this point since her world is probably pretty small.

 

Any other questions? I hope I've —

 

Angela:

No that was super helpful, that was great.

 

Annie:

I vomited out a bunch of ideas.

 

Angela:

That was awesome. Thank you.

 

Annie:

Yeah. And I think it's great that you're going to be doing the Calm Canine course.  Actually next week also we're doing what we're calling Dog Training in 21 days. It’s starting on April 1st. And it's 21 days of like exercises that you can do, just training exercises, little training challenges that none of them take very long. So that might also be a fun thing that you can do with her.

 

I think the more training that you do with her, even if you're not training specific things, like yes, I think you should be working on the crate stuff and leaving her alone. But my guess is the more, the more training you do with her of any kind, the more it's going to build her confidence and the less she's going to feel like her entire world depends on you.

 

And also, the more fun exercises you can get anyone else to do, you know? And I'm a big fan of getting kids involved in training. I think it's a good way to outsource things, to kids. And these are the kinds of exercises you could be doing with kids if you have any kids in your world that could work with her.

 

And lastly, making sure that she, like I said, she is getting some good one-on-one time with dogs. That's going to help her get her energy out. And again, just kind of like broaden her view of what the world contains so that it's not just not just you.

 

All right. Well, thank you so much. It was a really great question. Keep me posted on how things go.

 

Angela:

Yes, I will. Thank you.

 

Annie

You’re welcome. Oh, she is so amazingly cute. Oh, I understand why you guys want to be close to each other. What a little face, aww.  And I guess we'll see you in class soon. Are you doing the virtual calm canine? 

 

Angela:

No it’ll be the in person one.

 

Annie:

Oh, great. Okay. Well, I hope that goes really well and keep in touch.

 

Angela:

Yes. Thank you. Bye.

Annie Grossman
annie@schoolforthedogs.com