30 AprEpisode 148 | Dog Trainer (and NYC small biz owner!) Amanda Gagnon on parenting using behavior modification techniques learned from working with dogs
As far as Annie knows, there is only one other female-owned dog training storefront in Manhattan: Amanda Gagnon Dog Training. Both Amanda and Annie also have toddlers. Annie reached out to Amanda, whose daughter is a couple years older than Annie's, for advice on how to approach parenting in a reward-based, non-coercive way.
Learn more about Amanda at www.amandagagnondogtraining.com.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Canisius College's Masters in Anthrozoology
Oh Crap! Potty Training: Everything Modern Parents Need to Know to Do It Once and Do It Right
Transcript:
[Intro and music]
Annie:
So today I am here with Amanda Gagnon, who, you know, you and I actually have so much in common that I feel like this conversation could probably go on for five hours, like some Joe Rogan Experience episode or something. And we've actually never even chatted in real time before, so it's pretty exciting that we're getting to talk at all. But why don't you sort of give a brief introduction to who you are, and then we can talk about some of the things we have in common and some of the things that I think I could probably learn from you.
Amanda Gagnon:
Absolutely. Yeah. I've been looking forward to this too. This is going to be a lot of fun. I, yeah, so I'm a dog trainer. I have a business in Manhattan, which is something we definitely have right in line with each other. I've been dog training for about a decade now. I'm also an anthrozoologist. That's where I got my graduate degree in, which means I studied the relationship between people and animals. Obviously I focus on dogs and humans, and I really am particularly interested in dogs and humans and foreign cultures.
So I spend my days typically training dogs and reading lots of books and talking to lots of people about how they feel about dogs based on where they live and who they're around. So it's a pretty fun life, I think, because I love dogs.
Annie:
That is so interesting. So where did you study anthrozoology? If only I had known that that was a thing one could study, but tell me more.
Amanda:
Tell me about it. You know, I spent so many years looking at animal behavior graduate programs because it seems like that's what I should do. And every time I would read the curriculum, I would feel like it was missing something, and then I came across the anthrzoology curriculum. It's at Canisius college, which is upstate New York and it included so much about the human side of the coin. And I realized, Oh, of course that's what's missing from a lot of animal behavior, the human animal.
I didn't get into dogs just because I love dogs. I got into dogs because I liked the relationship that we have with them. I think it's really unique and cool and interesting. So yeah. Canisius College, it's a really cool program if anyone's interested in that. It's partially in person, or at least it used to be before the pandemic, and it is partially remote. So it's a pretty accessible thing. It's a lot of work, but it's a pretty accessible thing for people like you and me who work full time.
Annie:
And you have a master's degree from there?
Amanda:
That's right.
Annie:
Is that like a two year program?
Amanda:
It can be, but not if you have the kind of schedule that we keep. It took me four years to do.
Annie:
And where are you from originally?
Amanda:
I grew up in Virginia. I was born in New Hampshire, so that's where I spent my summers, but I grew up in Virginia. So I think of myself as kind of a Southern slash Northeast girl.
Annie:
And did you study anything having to do with behavior then in college?
Amanda:
In a way. [laughs] No, not really. I was an acting major in college. So in a sense, I think what drew me to performance there are some fun things about performance that I liked, but one of the things that drew me to performance is sort of analyzing the psychology of the characters and getting inside the minds of different types of people. So I think that's the through line for me.
But then I moved to New York to be an actress and did some acting theater stuff here. And then one day I — when you're an actor in New York, if you don't know, you usually have to have a day job —
Annie:
Oh no, it’s just one long sweet dollar, I thought. [laughs] Literally $1.
Amanda:
[Laughs] Exactly. So you take a lot of day jobs. And one of the day jobs that I took was at this sort of underground doggy daycare, meaning it was out of somebody's apartment. And I loved playing with those dogs so much that I never went on another audition. I started my own dog walking company, realized that I didn't know how to handle half of these dogs. So I started studying training. And one thing led to another.
I ended up touring being lucky enough to help Ian Dunbar in one of his tours. And I learned a lot from him and, you know, the rest of my education is pretty self-build through conferences and the way you have to do it as a dog trainer. At least these days, there's a lot of really cool online programs, but there weren't 10 years ago, as you know. I think you started around the same time, didn't you?
Annie:
Yes, yes. About 10, 11 years ago. And I mean, I kind of on a whim enrolled in the Karen Pryor Academy, knowing not very much about different programs and not very much about training at all. Which is interesting only in that I think so many people that do the Karen Pryor Academy come at it with many years of experience and are just sort of trying to like, you know, put a cherry on the top of the sundae of their knowledge.
I went in knowing like absolutely nothing, and of course got a lot out of it. But yeah, I mean, how crazy that here we are, two women running two of the only storefront dog training facilities in New York city, right?
Amanda:
Mhmm. Starting around the same time. You know, I didn't realize that Karen Pryor had an Academy 11 years ago. That's the first time I knew. I mean, I know about them now, of course, but I feel like I didn't get a sense of them until more recently. That's awesome that you found that, what a great place to start your career. It's one of the best.
Annie:
Yeah, I think I was really lucky, but also, like you said, there's so much education that you can get from resources that are out there, conferences, books. But I don't think I would have known about any of those things if I hadn't done the KPA program. It kind of set me on a path to figuring out what I needed to do, what I wanted to learn.
Amanda:
Yeah, I mean, it probably gave you an awesome compass. Cause I feel like back then it was, can we say back then nowadays? Back then more of a Wild West even than it is now, in terms of trying to figure out which teachers to follow. And I think the most important thing was finding good teachers. Because if you found teachers that didn't align with your values, you could end up training in very not so great ways.
Annie:
Oh yeah. Yeah. And it was hard — I don't know if you found this, but I found it was very hard to just talk to people. It was hard to find anywhere to apprentice anyway, and it was hard to find any kind of mentor. So, you know, with the School for the Dogs, part of our goal has been to create a community. I mean the podcast, I guess, is part of that, a sort of open community where people can get access to learning about how to become a trainer in addition to, obviously, providing services.
Amanda:
Absolutely, I think that's a great goal.
Annie:
So we could talk about a million things all day long because we both are these crazy, dog loving science nerds who run storefront businesses in New York City, and probably each worked 20 hours a day. But the main reason I wanted to talk to you is because I know that you, like I, have a toddler, but you're a little ahead of me. Your daughter's three, is that right?
Amanda:
She's three and a half that's right.
Annie:
And mine just turned two. And I feel like I'm constantly trying to figure out how to use what I know about dog training to be a better mother. And I don't think I'm doing the worst job, or at least she's a very resilient child, [laughs] but I definitely have some areas where I feel like I could use some coaching.
I think BF Skinner said something like the best math teacher for a first grader is a fifth grader or something like that. So I thought maybe as someone slightly more ahead in the game you might be able to provide some insights. So, I mean, do you find yourself — her name is Savannah, is that right?
Amanda:
Savannah, yeah. What's your daughter's name?
Annie:
Magnolia.
Amanda:
Oh, that's beautiful.
Annie:
We both have these like hippy dippy names for [laughing]…
Amanda:
I want to name my child after nature.
Annie:
Nature, man. Or I don't know, like a drag queen or something.
Amanda:
Right, like the original, your first street name and your last name.
Annie:
Exactly. So I mean, do you find yourself thinking about anthro zoology as you're raising Savannah?
Amanda:
I mean constantly, I think because of what you said about being kind of a science nerd. And so I kind of constantly think about it and when I sit down and actually try to focus on it. I think, you know, for me, and this is really going to sound hippy-dippy, but dog training and behavior and looking at human animal cultures is kind of a way of life in the same way that, you know, I also do martial arts and it becomes a way of life. And there's something about dedicating yourself to uncovering truths in one area of your life, at least worthwhile truths, that I think we can spread across all areas of our life.
And of course with our kids, we're focusing a lot on their behavior and trying to help them develop good behaviors. And a lot of what we do as dog trainers is try to help puppies develop good behaviors. So obviously I think about it all the time. In the thick of something, I don't always consciously go, Oh, what dog training technique would be good here? But oftentimes when I'm reflecting on things, I do.
And it's not a secret that even when I'm training people at my facility, I always use the same techniques on the people that I use on the dogs. And so it's not like I'm then saying, my kid is the equivalent of a five-year-old dog or a two year old dog or anything like that. It's just, if I'm looking at a behavior and I don't like it, or it's not working for our family, of course I'm going to try to think of a way to change it.
And then my natural default is, okay, let me break out my toolkit and say, so we do progressive desensitization. Should we do interrupt and redirect, should we socialize for this? Is she afraid? What's the function of this behavior? So I really do think about that a lot.
Annie:
That's interesting. My mother said something to me the other day, about using dog training techniques in parenting. And I thought to myself how… I think she said it in a way that she thought I'd be defensive about like, you know, of course I don't treat my child like a dog or something. But I realize it's, I don't think of it so much about using dog training techniques with my daughter, as much as I think about it as using what I know about behavior that I've learned through dog training with my daughter. But I know that there are people who learn about behavior in many different ways and apply it in many different ways. It's just a different application.
Amanda:
Yeah. And I totally agree with that. I think you're thinking about changing behavior, or just even observing behavior. And so it doesn't have to be about using dogs stuff on your kid. But I also think that at least for me, when I encounter different comments like that, it comes up in class a lot too, where someone will say, Oh, I get it. I'm the dog now.
Annie:
Right, right. “You're training me!”
Amanda:
“You’re training me. Aha!” For me, and this is maybe a slightly different philosophical conversation, but it's worth mentioning that I don't necessarily think there needs to be a hierarchy between different species where we say, Oh, well — because the implication there is that if it's funny that I'm using a dog training technique on a human, then that's because we kind of devalue dogs.
Annie:
Oh that's interesting.
Amanda:
And what they can be. And I don't think it's bad that it's funny. Of course it's funny. It helps us to shake up our reality and our constructs and our paradigms a little bit. But I don't think things need to be a hierarchy. Because it's sort of like forcing me to go, Oh, well, what's more important, the way I treat a dog or the way I treat a person? Could I treat a dog less humanely because they're a dog?
Of course I don't treat dogs less humanely because they're dogs. But there's a deeper philosophical conversation that we have to kind of dust off, I think, when we look at that and whether or not it's offensive to use a dog training technique on a kid.
Annie:
Yeah. That's really interesting. It makes me think two things. One, my line is always, it's not about me training you or me training the dog. I think of myself as like a, I'm just communicating, facilitating communication between you. That's one line I use.
But the other thing I was going to say is, as a former journalist, one thing that always drives me crazy, and I think I've actually talked about this on the podcast before, is like the lead that you see in so many stories about pets. Something along the lines of like, ‘Caroline woke up to the smell of lavender and then was accompanied to the spa and had her nails done. And then took a movement class. Caroline is King Charles Cavalier spaniel,’ something like —
[laughing]
‘Caroline is a Dachshund.’ It's always like, of course always in those stories if you read the headline, you will have known it was about a dog. And then the conceit of said article is usually about how ridiculous it is that people pamper their dogs in a way that would normally be for humans. Anyway, perhaps also maybe another conversation, but I get what you're saying, where it's not like a value judgment if you're using what you know about the science of behavior on one animal or another. It's just science.
Amanda:
Right. It's just science. And we'd be foolish, we’d be truly foolish to spend our lives studying behaviors and doing some of the nerdy things we do, like sit and just watch behavior and take notes and try to figure out what was the antecedent and what was the behavior, what was the consequence of that behavior? And is it consistent?
We spend all of this time training our observation skills so that we can look at a dog, or look at a person and a dog together and figure out what's going on there. If we were then to just pack that up and leave it at work and come home and not use that observation skill on our children and our family, that wouldn't make any sense to me. Of course I'm going to use that.
Annie:
So here's one issue that I'm having with my daughter that maybe you can shed some light on, and I know we emailed a little bit about this. So we're not very good at routines, I feel, in our household. Partially because both my husband and I, we run our own businesses. I think working from home also doesn't help with us setting clear boundaries. And we also live in, it's kind of like a loft. Like the bathroom is the only room with a real door. So it's hard to corral Magnolia into one space.
Although at the beginning of the lockdown, I did buy a bunch of baby gates cause I was like, I can't take this anymore! I need to keep the child in one area. Otherwise I'm just going to run back and forth all day long every day! So we do have some baby gates, which you know, under duress she could open if she had to, I think.
And she's not in a crib anymore. She's like in a twin size bed. Cause she was not okay with the crib. And part of the reason we got a twin size bed is because she'll really only go to bed if one of us is lying down with her.
So all of this is to say our bedtime routine is like the worst part of my day. And really the only thing that seems to work is just letting her stay up as long as she wants — and sometimes that just means like the whole family is watching…Oh my God, I've seen everything on Disney plus.
Amanda:
Me too!
Annie:
I'm like in the dregs of Disney Plus at this point watching like the 1935 Mickey mouse videos, just because I've seen all the other things. So basically just like letting her stay up until she absolutely can't keep her eyes open anymore, which is probably like the most peaceful way things go. Although of course it means there's no evening adult time.
Or like lying in bed with her, fighting with her about wanting to like look at the phone or sometimes she'll read a book, but then she'll get obsessed with like wanting to turn the light on and off 500 times, or she'll like run to get daddy because she needs a refill of her bottle. Or the latest is she'll start saying she wants to sit on the potty, which is like a really clever ploy, I think, that she's figured out. Like if the grownups let me sit on the potty, then I won't have to go to sleep.
And it just really, it really sucks. And so I'm curious to hear how you approached…
Amanda:
Yeah. I mean, look, you're not the only one who struggles with sleep stuff. I mean, I think if you ever want to know if a large number of people are struggling with an issue, just like go to the bookstore or Google on Amazon, how many books you get on that particular subject, will give you a sight of like — and like books and message boards and all of the like Facebook group, mom groups, everybody is concerned about sleep stuff.
And what I find most interesting about it when I talk to other moms is every kid — just like with our clients, right? So if we're really talking about how is this like dog training, just like with our clients, it's like every dog human dyad is different. And every kid is different and every mom is different and every dad is different. Every household is different. And because of that and because there's so much around sleep that is difficult, there is not a one size fits all cure for it.
And so that's why you get all these, you get like the Ferber method, which is essentially cry it out. And you've got modified Ferber methods, which are a little bit of cry it out a little bit of not cry it out. And then you've got co-sleeping, which is just bring your kid into the bed and stop worrying about it. And alll manner of things in between.
Annie:
I want what I think a lot of our dog training clients want, which is like the magic wand solution! That's going to be like, have her drink a glass of milk and then jump up and down on one leg five times and yell the word raspberry and everything will be okay. Or something.
Because like, yeah, there are all these methods. Well, let's talk about cry it out for a moment, because I have friends who've done cry it out. And my husband and I have moments where we're like, maybe that would have been the answer, but I feel like as an animal trainer, like really opposed to it. I'm guessing you feel the same.
Amanda:
Yeah. I really do agree because I mean, and this is where we started chatting by email, is this cry it out thing. Because it's using extinction. And as an animal trainer, I like to leave the more aversive methods all the way at the end. And in my experience, you know, in the end of the list of things that I'm going to try.
So for your listeners, if they've heard of LIMA, which is least invasive minimally aversive methods, which a lot of dog trainers subscribe to this, which is that we try doing things that are the least invasive first. If that doesn't work, we'll go to something slightly more invasive. And in my experience, typically, if you can't do it with the stuff that's gentler, then it really can't be done. That is, if you're very skilled at the gentler things, and that's with dogs.
But it's a lot different. The thing that's really tricky is, when you're coaching somebody else's dog and how to do something, it's very easy to kind of give like a one, two, three, four jump on one leg and cough and whatever. But when you're dealing with your own kid, they really do learn — and dogs do this too, of course. They learn how to push your individual buttons. And that relationship can be more complicated than one, two, three, because you might get through steps one and two, and then something changes and now three isn't going to be successful.
But yeah, so getting back to cry it out, though. The problem I have with it is that it seems overly aversive, and there could be something in me, too, just psychologically as a mother, that listening to my baby suffer like that, if it wasn't necessary in order to get some decent sleep habits, was never going to happen. I mean, there was just such extreme suffering, and understandable suffering, I think. It’s not like she needs to have that level of suffering in order to develop a tough shell or something. I think it could potentially be kind of traumatic
Annie:
Right. Well, and the way I think of it, it's like the behavior of crying might go away, but that doesn't mean that like the emotions, like the fear, the stress, the anxiety about going to sleep is going away. It's just maybe going to like come out of a different hole in the sieve and result in more tantrums during the day, or just generally like her being more clingy, or… I just, I don't want to do anything that's going to make her possibly less confident and self-assured in living in the world.
Amanda:
Or having nightmares or fear of the dark. You can think of a thousand ways that anytime you use that kind of aversive stuff, it does, it just pushes it into somewhere else. So yay I get to sleep, but I don't, in another sense, I can't sleep well because of what might've happened there.
And I don't have anything against parents who've used this method. I think that, again, everybody's different. And I do understand that there is such a huge benefit to getting more sleep as a parent that maybe the benefits are worth it. But I don't know if that's true, if there's another way to do it. Does that make sense? Like, it's like if I can get it to happen in another way. And I think that for the most part you can. But I have experienced it with my one kid.
So I do feel like for this whole conversation, I have to say, like, I'm not a child expert.
Annie:
Oh, of course!
Amanda:
[laughs] I feel like somebody who's got, you know, a doctorate in child education is come on here and be like, What is she talking about? But this is what works for my kid. I'll tell you that this is what works for my kid. And it's a spin off of progressive desensitization counterconditioning that we use for separation anxiety with dogs.
And the reason I think that that matters is there was a toddler book that I was reading at one point that talked about this. That it's all about the separation, right? So anything around separating from mom, and to some extent for dad too, but I find it to be more potent with mom, is always fraught.
So like dropping them off at a daycare, or having them be even just a few feet away from you, sometimes. Like I'm going to go across the room, and they might be mad. Or I'm going to leave you alone for eight hours at night or 10 hours. That's a huge piece of separation. And I think that's why all of the anxiety around it.
And if you think sort of historically about the human animal, like we didn't separate from our kids like this for a long time. Which is the big argument that co-sleeper is make, right, which is, it's not natural for our kids to sleep separately. And I think there's some merit to that argument. Personally, I don't sleep at all if my child is in my bed, I don't sleep at all. I'm so sensitive to every single move. So I was only able to do co-sleeping if I was completely exhausted.
Annie:
If you were drunk.
Amanda:
[laughs] Like early on, I could do it a little bit when we were still really early, you know, I could just pull her into bed and out of bed. But as soon as she was past like a year old — I didn't do much co-sleeping cause she always kept me up is basically what I’m saying.
Annie:
Understood.
Amanda:
So having her in another room. And so what we did was leave for a short period of time. So yeah, there was some crying, but I wasn't completely abandoning her. So I would put her into the bed — and I'll still do this if she has a really bad day, but it typically doesn't happen. Hasn't happened for a long time. So that might give you some hope.
If I put her into the bed and we do a whole routine around it, and this is where I really do relate it back to dogs, creating a separation anxiety routine, where I think of them as trigger warnings with dogs. And I think of it the same way as Savannah. It's like, I'm letting you know that this is coming and what's interesting with dogs is that when we do this, we all also talk about desensitizing all the triggers.
So for any listeners who don't know, I'll give them a little bit of the basics of desensitization program, which is for separation anxiety, is that you start getting the dog used to things like putting on your coat and even opening the door before you try leaving the dog alone. And so I found, interestingly, I almost did the opposite with Savannah. But that has informed some things that I do with dogs.
So instead of getting rid of everything that was going to warn her that I would leave, I made it the same every single time. And it's weird, because I feel like with a dog that would have the opposite effect. But so we do the same thing every single night, so she knows exactly when that trigger is coming.
Annie:
Well, it's the idea of like, whenever you're dealing with an animal that has anxiety, making things very predictable can be useful. And actually, as you're saying this, I have an idea which I haven't had before, which is like, I wonder if like, when it's not bedtime, I could practice going to bed, like her going to bed, like make it into a game, which I hadn't thought of. But that's the kind of thing we do with dogs too. Like, you know, practice, right? Like practice mommy going out the door, even when it's not time to leave. But go ahead. Sorry, I interrupted you.
Amanda:
Yeah. That's a good idea. And that's a way of desensitizing the triggers in a different way. Yeah. That's a good idea. Yeah, I wonder — the funny thing, just a sidebar, the funny thing about making things a game around bedtime, the tricky spot that I found, is sometimes when I make things really fun around bedtime, she picks up on that and figures out ways to prolong that piece of it. ‘Oh no let’s play this game one more minute, one more minute. Oh, three kisses. No 30 kisses, no 50!’ It keeps going longer and longer and longer. She is a lot more verbal now than when she was two. So she can ask for things like that.
But yeah. Okay. So going back to the pattern, you read two books and only two books. We get into the bed, we do 10 hugs, and then we do one minute of patting, and then mama leaves. And I did find that one piece of it that was necessary is, I would give her the trigger warning. ‘So I'm going to sit here and sing the song for one minute. And then when the song is over, I'm going to leave.’ And I have to make sure she hears that.
And sometimes you'll start to get your reaction then, right? As soon as you let them know it's coming. And sometimes it helps her to not have as big of a reaction. And I got a little variation on that. But once the song was over, then I leave. But I would leave for a very short period of time.
And in this way, it's very similar to doing separation anxiety. I'm going to leave and come right back. When you start leaving the dog alone, I'm sure you have a protocol that somewhere along those lines, right? So you leave and then come back in, and then leave for progressively longer periods of time. That's exactly what I did with Savannah. I would leave for about 10 seconds, come back in, double that amount of time, double that amount of time, double that amount of time. And I actually got that idea from a toddler book that I read. I can't remember which one now.
Annie:
Now when you come back in, do you say, do you like praise anyway? Or do you let her know that you're there or your presence there is enough?
Amanda:
You know, that's a good question. I base that a lot on instinct. The recommendation in the book was specifically, go back in quick pat, pat, everything's okay. And then walk out again. I typically spend a little bit more time than that helping her settle down. And that was just based on instinct, but not too long.
Cause there's a tipping point where, you know, they start putting on a show of crying so that you'll come back. There's like a tipping point. So it's gotta be very regimented. Otherwise they can start to work the system a little bit. That would be my guess on that. But I would follow my instinct, follow my heart, and it was kind of based a little bit on how upset she was, like legitimately upset, not putting on a show of being upset. And there was a very subtle difference there. And I think both are rooted in anxiety.
But still I would go back in and it'd be brief, but sincere. And then I would leave and tell her I'm going to be right back and leave. And then I'd come back in 20 seconds, and there was some crying. So there is a piece of it that is a little bit aversive for sure. But she knows I'm coming back and I'm coming back and I'm coming back, and it really did work. The hardest part, I think, was…
Annie:
The tedium of having to go back and forth, back and forth? [laughs]
Amanda:
But you know what, It's a lot easier than anything else you do, you know, watching 15 hours of Aladdin.
[laughs]
Annie:
Tell me about it.
Amanda:
Versions one and two.
Annie:
Does she go to bed at the same time, every night?
Amanda:
Yes. I have a little more flexibility in that now that we have a solid routine underway, but yeah, it was. I would schedule my entire life around her sleeping routine, that's for sure. And I think that comes also from a dog thing. It's schedule, schedule, schedule. The more routine things are, the more she'll thrive, I always thought.
And so, and I had the hardest time with that when I was dealing with anything in my life that involved non-parents. And it was very easy to coordinate when with other people who had had small kids and it's like, Nope, nap time is coming, I'm leaving. We got to go.
Annie:
It's so funny. And it's like, my husband and I have like such a hard time with that kind of thing. We're so like, just ‘whenever’ about things with her right. You know, I feel bad admitting this, but one thing that I find I have trouble with is like feeding her three times a day.
[laughing]
She gets fed and it's not a problem, but I'm so bad just about like making sure I eat three times a day, normally, that like, I have to like really force myself to be like, she is a child and she must,
Amanda:
She must eat!
Annie:
She must have the regular meals [laughs] It's not that I don't want to feed her. I just like, literally like, sometimes I'll take her out for a walk and it'll be like 11 o'clock. I'll be like, oh my God, I've got to feed her.
Amanda:
I mean there's a lot of food prep in motherhood. Like a lot of food prep. I understand why like old time on the stay at home moms were literally like wearing aprons and cooking all day long, because that's what you could do. I mean, you've got breakfast and lunch and dinner and two snacks. Plus you have to feed yourself. That's three more meals. That's six and two halves meals a day.
Annie:
Yeah. I mean, fortunately my husband does all of that, cause I probably would not have had children if I had to figure out the food piece of the puzzle. It's actually, you know, it's interesting though. Like in some ways I feel like being a dog trainer made me think about my food regimen a little bit better, because in my adult years, I've just, again, been so sort of like all over the place with food.
Something about like, I'm like if I can help people set up routines for their dogs, I think I can probably figure out a good routine for myself so that it's not like every day when I have to go eat something I'm reinventing the wheel, which is how I used to feel.
Amanda:
You just have to prepare yourself some Kongs and toss them in the freezer.
Annie:
Yes! Oh my God. I like, I wish it were that easy. Well, I kind of figured out ways to make it that easy, but that — I mean, not literally eating food out of Kongs. Although I have a friend who is a dog trainer and I, well, I won't name her, although she probably would not deny to this. But she used to make herself, she used to make herself like dog food patties, basically. They weren't dog food, but they were like perfectly balanced meals containing, like, I don't even know what she put in them.
They were meat-based patties that she would like wrap in tinfoil and like have on the go. And they contained everything that she needed for the day. I guess it's kind of like the Soylent movement or whatever.
Amanda:
That sounds delicious.
[laughing]
I think I like the taste of food more than your friend.
Annie:
Any other ways in which you think being a dog trainer has made you a better parent? Or a worst parent? [laughs] How running a business makes you a better or worse parent?
Amanda:
God, you know, I struggled with the running a business aspect of it, especially in this last year. Cause it got so hard. I don't know if you had this experience, but last year was definitely my hardest year running a business ever. I struggle with it because I do sort of subscribe to, I want my daughter to see mama having a career and feeling fulfilled and things like that. But I also do, as most working moms do, I always feel guilty when I'm away from my daughter, you know, all of those things that people worry about.
But yeah, the other things in terms of dogs and like behavior skills and things like that, the other really big one, really big obvious one is the potty training one. Because as dog trainers, we spend a lot of time teaching animals when and where to go pee. So I remember leading up to it, I was like, oh, this is just going to be so easy. This is what I do for a living.
Annie:
I've had the same feeling, but go on.
Amanda:
Yeah. And I actually think it probably, this is one of those funny things about parenting is hindsight makes it seems easy in hindsight when it probably wasn't as easy in reality. But I definitely had moments of frustration, but we did, there's a book called, Oh Crap. Have you heard of it?
Annie:
Yes I have.
Amanda:
Yeah. That's the method that, I read that book and went, this is potty training. This is what I'm doing. And so, because it's almost exactly what I tell my clients to do for puppies, but translated into more human form. So there's some big biological differences, obviously, between puppies and little kids when you're trying to housetrain, but it was basically an interrupt and redirect, I mean, catch them every time and bring them to the potty and make it a positive experience. And boom, you got a potty trained kid. And it worked pretty well. Have you been potty training with your baby?
Annie:
Yes, but I haven't been too hardcore about it.
Amanda:
She’s on the young side yet.
Annie:
Yeah, I feel like when my friends talk about it, I'm like, this is just dog training. This is just dog training. And it's funny, actually, when she was very little, I was much more on top of like getting her on the potty when I thought she had to go, even though it was like, she was really kind of too young — or not too young, but very much on the young side.
Whereas, yeah, now I I'm like — especially, she has a pretty good tell at this point when she has to poop. And so I've gotten pretty pretty good at trying to get her on the potty when she has to poop. And and she gets a piece of chocolate after she goes. Although I've tried to be careful about, she only gets one piece. Well, she's never gone on the toilet more than like one pee and one poop a day. But I don't want to get in the trap of her peeing and pooping constantly so that she can get jelly beans kind of thing. But yeah, I'm trying to give her chocolate when she goes.
Although it's interesting. I've had a lot of friends tell me about Oh Crap and kind of summarize it a little bit for me. And one of my friends was insistent, she's like, it's not a reward based method, which I don't know. Did you find that to be the case?
Amanda:
I disagree with that, and maybe that maybe that friend isn't as well-versed in like operant quadrant as we are, you know what I mean? Because I think people have a lot of misconceptions about what it means, reward-based. But in the oh crap book, she emphasizes that confidence is the reinforcer, right? So that feeling of being proud.
And I think this is an interesting thing to think about in terms of differences between raising kids and raising dogs. Is that one of the big — I could restate that actually. Something that raising both animals has in common is that you have to look for what is reinforcing, right? So some dogs would be reinforced by a piece of candy or a piece of treat and some dogs are not as reinforced by treats and maybe are more reinforced by play, right?
So kids, yes, absolutely, they're reinforced by chocolate and Skittles, but in a different way than things that make them feel proud and things that make them feel confident. And I think something we have to look for as reinforcers in our kids are those feelings-reinforcers. It’s like, I feel like I was successful versus I feel like I failed. So the feeling of failure is punishing and the feeling of success is reinforcing.
And so a lot of what we did for reinforcer was celebration. Which we do a little bit with puppies, right? We have a potty party maybe like, you'll go crazy with your puppy. But I did a lot of that with Savvy. I didn't do too much candy with the potty. And I think that was based on the book, the book's recommendation that it should be something they do to feel proud of themselves. I think she says it, she says it's something like that.
But at her daycare, they did do stickers. So you, I think sometimes you can use these. I think it's definitely something to discuss is like what types of reinforcers should I use? And when. We use candy for eating all of your dinner, or eating your vegetables, we definitely do that.
And it's, it's actually, we should talk about bribing a bit. Because one of the most common misconceptions with reinforcement based training or reward based training is that you're always bribing your dog, okay. And you know, obviously we as trainers, we know that the goal is actually to reinforce and not to bribe.
One of the most common questions I ask my class is what's the difference? And most people don't know that the difference is when you present, and this is all for your listeners, obviously. The difference is when you present that piece of candy, right? So if I wave a piece of chocolate in front of Magnolia and say, if you use the potty, I'm going to give you some chocolate. We would call that a bribe. But if we wait till after she uses the potty, we give the chocolate.
Okay. So I think that this comes up a lot in parenting because it's not — I don't click and treat. Right. I don't wait until Savannah does a behavior, then suddenly produce a piece of chocolate. I don't find that to be as easy to do with her as it is with a dog. For some reason. Like you put on your shoes, surprise, here's a new coloring book! It's harder.
Annie:
The timing is harder. Yeah.
Amanda:
And then it also, it doesn't — it does seem to work a little bit to lead with the incentive. But then that becomes a bribe. And this is something that I wrestled with. What do you think about this whole bribing versus reinforcing with your kids? Do you experience it with Magnolia?
Annie:
You know, it's funny. My old dog who we lost recently, my husband like ruined his training by always bribing him, basically. Like I couldn't train my husband to not bribe him. So it definitely got to the point where he was like, where's the yummies? Not doing it without the yummies.
With Magnolia, I guess I haven't thought about it so much. I guess I've thought about it more in terms of making her aware of consequences. Of like the possible consequences of her behavior. But I haven't thought about that in terms of, you know, whether that's a bribe or not, which is interesting. It just hadn't occurred to me. I'm trying to think of an example of when that's come into play.
Amanda:
It’s tricky. I’m trying to think of something other than candy where I've noticed this. I do. I notice it when I'm doing things, I'm like, oh, shoot, I'm bribing right now.
Annie:
You know what I do a lot with her, which is just, I guess, a different topic, but I let her discover like consequences on her own a lot. Like for instance like if she doesn't want to put her coat on to go outside, I'll just be like, okay, well, once we get outside, you're probably going to want to put your coat on!
Amanda:
Yeah, I’ve done that too. “Okay!”
Annie:
Or I'm also very — in the last few months she's gotten into temper tantrums where she like, goes face flat on the ground, usually like in the middle of the sidewalk on like third avenue in Manhattan. Like decide she doesn't want to go in that direction and just like totally pancakes. And my husband's approach to that is like, he'll just like pick her up and like, we'll keep moving.
Where I'm like, no. I mean, part of it is like I'm pregnant right now. Like I'm just not gonna pick up and drag a screaming child with me. So I'll just stand there and wait. I'm like really good, I think at like waiting her out. Which, to some extent, I feel like that's just like my nature. Like I think I probably would have done that even before I was a dog trainer. I grew up with a babysitter who was like the queen of stonewalling. So maybe that's part of what it comes from.
But I do think it is an effective way of not inadvertently positively reinforcing the behavior of throwing a tantrum by giving her attention. And I think that's important, like so much of the time when we are scolding kids, or even just showing exasperations, I think like we're giving them what they want.
But I also feel like I remember as a kid, the feeling of not wanting to give in, do you know what I mean? Like when you're upset about something and like, even though, you know maybe you've gone beyond a reasonable point. I feel like I kind of remember that feeling of like, I'm just going to keep pulling on this rope because I've invested this much in it. So like, if I could just like, let her get to the point of deciding on her own.
But what's funny in, especially in like that specific kind of situation, which has happened a few times like literally in the middle of the sidewalk on third avenue is, because everyone's wearing a mask, I can't tell when they're walking by and seeing what's going on, if they're like smiling or scowling in disapproval. [laughs]
Amanda:
‘I can't tell if you're judging me or not!’
Annie:
Which I guess is just as well! It's just as well. But that's an interesting that the question about bribing, because I mean, with, with dogs, I'm always telling people to try and avoid bribing and yet with kids, I feel like we take it for granted that we do say like, you know, if you want to have your dessert, you have to finish your vegetables kind of thing, which I guess you could say is a bribe.
Amanda:
Right, right. But I guess it's really more of a problematic bribe only if they're refusing, right. And then the consequence of their refusal is that we offer chocolate. I think that's when it becomes more of a problem than if it's something that always exists as a possibility, right. So the conditions are there vegetables in front of you, you know, that if those vegetables disappear the conditions chocolate will appear. So I think there's some play in it, but it has definitely made me sort of tease at some of those little strings a little bit more.
It’s interesting, like when you're talking about tantrums, it makes me think of my daughters, what I call the big scream. Where it's taken us some time to play. She's actually still doing this sometimes, not nearly as often as she was, but around right about three, maybe a little bit sooner than three, she started doing this massive scream where it was just like, it would hit a point or whatever. She wasn't allowed to do something, or she wasn't happy with the circumstances.
And she would just look at you dead in the eye and give the biggest blood curdling scream possible. And the first time it happens, of course, you, as a parent react, I think a really awesome childcare provider would maybe not react, like your babysitter. But oh my god, you just screamed in my face.
And so I tried a lot of different things. One of which, one of the first things I tried, which I think was probably not my best idea, was leaving the room when she did it. Like, you know, if you're not going to be nice to me, I don't want to play with you, I'm leaving. And it made her really upset and she would chase me out of the room and it would stop the scream, but it didn't stop the frequency of the big scream. Right. So obviously there was something in that that wasn't working.
And I haven't totally unlocked this mystery. And now I'm trying instead staying in the room, but not having a reaction to see if no reaction as a consequence helps. And it does seem to be working a lot better. But staying close by, because again, I had a problem with that abandonment punishment, that was too severe for me.
And I think with her bigger tantrums, I found myself frequently asking what the function was. Because I think that kids need to have tantrums, sometimes, and that It's not something — I just feel like they're developing all of these emotions, and they're strong emotions and they don't yet know what to do with them.
And some of these ideas I get from, my daughter goes to a really awesome daycare. And like all these people have degrees in childhood education and stuff. So they give me a lot of ideas. And one of the things that they have is a calm your body chair. And it's a little beanbag chair in the corner with like clouds painted around it and stuff. Whenever they're feeling really angry or really upset, they’re allowed to go over there and beat that chair and scream and cry and then sit down and calm their body, and then come back when their bodies calm.
And it worked like a charm when Savvie was your age, or your babies age, not your age. When Savvie was Magnolia's age. So it might be worth trying. It stopped working after awhile, but for quite some time, we would say, you're feeling a lot of feelings. Let's go to your calm your body chair. And we just beat the chair up. Obviously this doesn't work on third avenue. But it works at home! Iit got to a point where I could look at Savannah and say do you need to go calm your body? And she would go, yes! And she would run over there.
Of all of that to say, I think sometimes the function of the tantrum is expression of emotion. And so we have to make sure that if that's what is needed, that we have an outlet for that. So that it doesn't, as you said earlier, sort of pop out in other places.
But then if the function of the behavior is to get attention, then what you were saying about needing to kind of reserve that attention, that patience and wait for some behavior you like, and then capture that behavior by bringing your attention back, I think makes a lot of sense. But then it's difficult to tell, which is which, sometimes you have to kind of identify what's going on. And sometimes it's a mix of both. Right. So they don't make it easy on us.
Annie:
Damn kids. Have you used a leash with Savannah?
Amanda:
No, I haven't, have you?
Annie:
Yes. And she's gone back and forth on it. Actually, the leash that I use, or the harness that I use is a dog backpack that we sell in our online store or in our shop too.
Amanda:
[laughing]
Annie:
And there has been times where she like actually wants to put it on. But then there's other times where she seems like she really doesn't want to put it on. But the main times that I've used it is she's really, really interested in walking the dog. And she wants to walk the dog herself, you know, it's all about like, mommy's not helping. So I've used it when I've let her walk the dog, but then of course I also have to have like — so I have her on the leash and then I also have the dog on a lease. And she's has leash on the dog. But I also have the leash on the dog. Because I don't want her obviously walking the dog alone. So it ends up being a lot of leashes.
[laughing]
Amanda:
You know, what's funny about this. This actually is one of the most amusing things, I think, that highlights this sort of way we think of dogs hierarchically, like I was talking about earlier, why would I be comfortable putting a dog on a leash, but not comfortable putting a kid on a leash?
Annie:
Oh yeah.
Amanda:
You know, I think a lot of people feel like they don't want to put a leash on their child, but we would do it for all the same reasons that we would put a leash on a dog, for their safety.
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda:
I haven't used one, but in theory I have zero problem with it and I totally would, if there was any, if there was a situation. We have spent slightly less time, but probably considerably less time in the city walking around than probably you and your daughter have, cause we have a house in Connecticut.
Annie:
Well, right. I mean, a lot of the time it feels like it feels more humane to have her like on a leash than to forcibly strap her into a stroller. And you know, for a two year old, there's only so much walking, holding my hand that she'll do without. I mean, although, you know, again, that's something to work on. And we do work on it, but..
Amanda:
Oh, you know what I do there, I do putting a problem behavior on cue.
Annie:
Ooh, tell me more.
Amanda:
So I do, okay now we're running free. Now we hold hands. Now we're running free. Now we hold hands. And I did have to do, and I definitely did this a lot in the city. I did have to do just like I would do with a dog, wait at an intersection. And you had to be holding my hand when we crossed the street. And I was hearing zero pushback on that. And so I made that boundary really, really clear. And then when we were on wider sidewalks, I would cue ‘okay, Freedom!’ And then she could run around.
Annie:
Ah. Yeah. Another dog trainer suggested playing a lot of the freeze game.
Amanda:
Oh yeah, did you try that?
Annie:
I haven't done that yet really, not yet, but I think it's a good.
Amanda:
Oh yeah. The start and stop games. Yeah. Savannah’s still into certain stop games. Yeah, you can really prime those with some music. I don't know, how far along were you pregnancy wise? Do you need to put your feet up yet? You're sitting with your feet up, iPhone or something and just queuing music, starting stuff and make a dance and freeze game, and prime that.
Annie:
That's a good idea. I know what I'll be doing tonight.
Amanda:
That's a good wear your child's body out game.
Annie:
Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you for taking the time to talk. And I do feel like there's so many other things we could talk about, but I'm happy to talk about parenting as opposed to anything else for a little while.
Amanda:
A hundred percent. What a fun conversation. I'm really glad we did this. Thanks for having me on your podcast.
Annie:
Yeah. And maybe at one day in the future, when people can meet up in person again, we can have a daughter and mommy play date.
Amanda:
I would love that, I'm looking forward to it. I'll come when you have the new baby and carry the baby for a little while, so you can rest and we'll let our kids play and we'll have the best time.
Annie:
Aww. That sounds great. And we'll have beverages.
Amanda:
Yes. And no masks on I pray.
Annie:
No masks. All right. Well, thank you so much, Amanda. Hope to connect again soon.
Amanda:
Absolutely, it was a pleasure. Thanks Annie.
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