30 JulEpisode 163 | Terrible dog training, sugarcoated with New Age woo: Cesar Millan is back on TV
To many people, everything they know about dog training has come out of the mouth of one man: Cesar Millan. For nine seasons, on his show, The Dog Whisperer, he told people that they needed to fix their "energy" and become more assertive in order to get their dogs to be "calm submissive." He showed how to get dogs to do what he wanted by using punishment, force and coercion, although he had other words he used to describe his methods... words having to do with "joy" and "positivity." He managed to put a New Age-quasi-spiritual-spin on antiquated methods, and the public ate it up. In anticipation of his brand new show, Better Human Better Dog, Annie discusses her current, and past thoughts about Cesar Millan, and plays several interviews where he talks about his shows and his beliefs about dogs and the humans who, according to him, cause all their problems.
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2012 blog posts Annie wrote about Cesar Millan
Cesar Millan’s secret training technique: Kicking dogs in the stomach
Cesar Millan’s techniques: choking, shocking, and setting up dogs to fail
The Dog Whisperer is cancelled, but Cesar Millan will not stop existing
Having their say: Cesar Millan’s fans (and a few detractors)
Alan Titchmarsh 2012 interview with Cesar Millan, aka The Dog Whisperer
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Trailer to Better Human Better Dog
Millan discusses shows on ABC 7 Chicago
StoreForTheDogs.com items mentioned in this episode:
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Related Episodes:
- Episode 68: Is Dominance Really A Thing? Cesar Millan, Libertarianism + A Dog Named Pizza
- Episode 44: Are you talking to your socks? Marie Kondo, Cesar Millan & training humans with snake oil
On the consequences of using punishment:
- Episode 34 | How I used punishment to train my husband to cover his mouth when he yawns (Part 1)
- Episode 35 | How I used punishment to train my husband to cover his mouth when he yawns (Part 2)
Kate and Annie on Cesar Millan:
Transcript:
[intro and music]
Annie:
I really hate Cesar Millan. I have found that there are basically three kinds of people. The first kind of person falls into the category of many of my friends, where those people just don't care at all about Cesar Millan, and see my hatred of Cesar Millan as some sort of quirk about me. Kind of as if someone, I don't know, you know, someone who hates the Beatles. It's something you know about them that sort of doesn't make a lot of sense.
Then, there are people I know who are dog trainers like me, and pretty much every dog trainer I hang out with feels the same way as I do about Cesar Millan.
Then there is a third category of person who loves Cesar Millan to the nth degree. And these people are very vocal about how much they love him. And, you know, this is a podcast essentially about dog training. And here I am three years and 160 odd episodes in, and I have very, very rarely mentioned Cesar Millan or his show, the show he's best known for, The Dog Whisperer, on this podcast.
And it's sort of intentional, because I am not that interested in engaging with people who adore him in any kind of dialogue, and I guess I have therefore steered clear of talking about him for that reason.
But I want to give a little bit of background about my feelings about Cesar Millan, and then talk about Cesar Millan in 2021.
So, I first heard of Cesar Millan, I think it was 2006. And I don't remember thinking very much about him, or researching him very much. I wasn't dog-training then. I wasn't particularly interested in dog training. But I remember I was dating a guy who mentioned him and just how incredible he was, sort of what a magician he was. Nobody knew dogs like Cesar Millan.
I remember getting the sense that he was kind of a dog magician. And then I guess, in the years following that, I became aware that he was sort of becoming synonymous with dog training. To the point that I actually wrote an article late 2007 when I was still working as a freelance journalist for the New York Times, about how his show was inspiring more and more people to become professional dog trainers or to think about becoming professional dog trainers.
And I really had no, no idea at that point that there were different approaches to dog training. And this is something I think I talked about in one of the early episodes of the podcast, how it seemed to me kind of like insider baseball, when one dog trainer pooh-poohed another dog trainer's methods.
Whereas now I see, or the way I see it is, it’s not even so much that there are different methods, in that “method” seems like something you would equate, like one method is perhaps just as good as another method. I have a hard time even seeing it that way, because to me, there's the science-based stuff, and then there's stuff that's based in myth, and I guess you could call it hope and magic, and certainly a lot of training that is about using force and punishment.
So, I feel like there's good dog training, and then there's like everything else. And to say, you know, some people use these methods and some many people use those methods, and you have to treat everyone with respect no matter what methods they use. I don't know. I no longer really see things that way.
But I certainly did at the time, so I am empathetic to those who have not seen the light of positive reinforcement dog training, and that I know what it's like to just see it all as kind of one thing. And when I wrote that article, I definitely saw it all as one thing.
A few years later, I enrolled in the Karen Pryor Academy to become a dog trainer. Although, like I said, even then, I don't think I really knew that much about different schools of dog training. I think I kind of lucked into finding a program that ended up pointing me in a direction that made a lot of sense to me.
But right before I enrolled, I met a trainer in the Philadelphia area, Lou Mandy, a great guy. And I went to his home and he showed me some of the stuff he had done with his dog. And he told me about the Karen Pryor Academy program. And I remember him making some sort of comment about how you couldn't mention Cesar Millan to Karen Pryor Academy people, that Cesar Millan's name was like Voldemort.
And I, still, at that point sort of, I think rolled my eyes and thought like, whatever, people are so touchy about things. Totally did not get it.
Fast forward a few years. Graduated from Karen Pryor academy. And I had a sense at that point that what Cesar Millan was doing was antiquated, that he really was not up on the sciences behavior and the technologies that we use that draw on behavioral science in order to train a dog. That he didn't know about learning theory, that he didn't understand classical conditioning and operant conditioning, that he just sort of had an old fashioned view of dog training.
But this is just what I sort of gleaned from hearing other people talk about him. I never really watched the show. And one day I was actually with my godmother and for whatever reason, she was curious to know what I would actually think about the show if I did sit down an, watch it. So we watched the first episode of the first season together.
And I was pretty horrified. What I saw was dogs who were really stressed out. Dogs who were showing a lot of signs that they were uncomfortable. I mean, at that point I knew how to read dog body language and I could read the signs of stress. And I saw that if he was accomplishing things with these dogs, it wasn't because the dogs were into it. It was more like the dogs had entered kind of a zombie state after being terrorized, and were willing to do whatever was necessary, only because they were just so dead inside, basically.
I remember the first episode of the first season, he gets this dog who's terrified of walking across like a tile floor or a linoleum floor or some sort of shiny floor, basically by dragging him over the floor over and over and over again. And I guess we watched maybe more than the first episode, or we skimmed some other episodes.
But I remember seeing dogs snapping at him, which at that point I also felt like, you're not doing the dogs a favor, really, by making them display the behaviors you're trying to get rid of. Of course, I know this is TV, and there's an extent to which I guess the producers are dictating what's going to be shown.
But as a dog trainer, we at School for the Dogs who weren't going into work with a client, we don't want to see the dog snapping or lunging or doing all the things we're trying to get them to stop doing, because we're trying to keep those behaviors from happening. And every time the behavior is happening, it's like the dog is working out that muscle. So the last thing we want is for us to be there and the dog to be practicing that behavior.
I'd prefer to never see a dog perform one of the behaviors we're trying to work on getting rid of if it's something that we can keep it from happening, but on his show saw lots of dogs lunging, snapping. I mean, he even gets bit on the show over and over. So that was uncomfortable for me to watch.
And overall I just really felt uncomfortable with his general message, which is that it's all the human's fault, that if a dog has behavior issues, it's because the person isn't assertive enough. The person isn't powerful enough, doesn't have the right energy.
And I saw that and I thought, you know, God, dog training just shouldn't have to require that someone redo themselves as a person. You know? I want dog training to be easy. I want dog training to be understandable for the people I work with. I don't want people to feel like they need to go into therapy and start a yoga practice and really rethink who they are as human beings in order to get their dogs to listen to them, nor do I think that that's necessary.
I have seen handicapped people train dogs, elderly people train dogs, young kids train dogs. And energy,the energy that he's always talking about seems to me like it's just an impossible thing to pin down. And it's also so subjective. You know, I might think someone has great energy, and you might think that person doesn't have great energy, right?
Like I always think of Donald Trump, as an example. I don't like his energy, if that's what we're going to call it, but certainly plenty of other people think he has wonderful energy. Energy is just, it's not observable and documentable in any kind of scientific way when it's being used in the way that it's used by people when they refer to a person's energy or a dog's energy, as it has to do with dog training.
Sure, maybe it's a shortcut for, you know, the way someone is standing, or the tenor of their voice. But if that's the stuff we're talking about, then we should be more specific, I think, and refer to things that are observable, that can be measured, rather than sort of giving these blanket statements about someone's energy being either bad or good, or assertive or not assertive.
I also didn't like how he talks about his special powers that he was born with, which is something that he talks about I think even in the intro to the show, because I believe that dog training is something that people can learn.
I think we are all born maybe with an innate understanding of behavior because we are animals who are behaving all the time, and dogs are animals who are behaving all the time. But I don't really believe that some people are born with a special knowledge of dog behavior versus other people who are born with less of a knowledge of dog behavior.
And I also just saw a lot of flat out punishment in the episodes, that seemed to me like it was, in the long run, going to be doing more harm than good to the dogs. Which is something I've talked about a lot on this podcast, about how punishment might work in the moment, but you have to consider the fallout.
And the fallout for the dogs Cesar Millan works with I'm sure is something that happens after he and the television crew have left. So in, within the span of time that's being shot, they might be filming success, but I really have a lot of doubts about whether or not the dogs he has quote-unquote “helped,” have had success in the long run.
And, you know, there's this disclaimer on his Dog Whisperer show, about how you shouldn't try these techniques at home. And I think that's too bad. If someone's devoting their time to watching a show about dog training, wouldn't it be nice if they really could use those techniques at home? And of course, I'm sure plenty of people have used those techniques at home. So, I had a lot of feelings about the Dog Whisperer after that session of watching it with my godmother.
Then a couple of years after that, after I had partnered up with Kate Senisi, who I call my work wife, we were trying to figure out where we could teach classes, and we ultimately transformed my living room into our first classroom.
But prior to doing that, we were considering lots of different options. And we heard about a dog daycare that had just opened up in Williamsburg, in Brooklyn and that they were looking to maybe have classes there. So we reached out to the owner and asked if we could meet with her. And I remember we put together a whole presentation for her about what we could do as far as offering classes in her space.
And after we — I remember we were at a cafe in Williamsburg, and we gave our spiel for 30 minutes or whatever. And when we were done, she said something like, Well, I really believe that when you're training dogs, energy is the most important thing. So how do you guys work with dogs with energy?
And I just didn't know what to say. I said, I mean I think I said something along the lines of like, Well, the training that we do is really rooted in the science of behavior, and we try to work with variables that are measurable, whereas something like energy is not really part of what we talk about when we're talking about the science of behavior as it relates to dog training. And we attempt to use the least invasive methods possible, We don't believe in using force, dah dah dah dah.
I don't remember exactly what I said, but probably something along those lines. And she was basically just kind of like, well, I think that it's more important to consider both a person and a dog's energy in dog training. And I said something along the lines of, Really, well, where have you gotten your education about dog training? And she said, Well, I've watched a lot of the Dog Whisperer. [laughs]
And, I just couldn't believe that here I had decided to devote my life to dog training, I had graduated from Karen Pryor Academy, I was a Certified Professional Dog Trainer through the Certification Council of Professional Dog Trainers. I couldn't believe that Kate and I were sitting across from someone who was like equating our expertise with having watched a lot of The Dog Whisperer.
I was just totally speechless. And I think I just stood up and left. And Kate quickly followed me, but I just couldn't, I didn't think I could like sit there and continue to be across the table from this person without blowing my top.
And afterwards, both Kate and I went home to our separate apartments and ended up writing blog posts about Cesar Millan. And I posted, maybe I wrote a couple blog posts. I know I posted at least one that had a compilation I found on YouTube of him kicking dogs. He does this little back kick with his heel into a dog's ribs. And yeah, I just posted that and wrote feelings along the lines of what I've been saying here. And Kate wrote her own thing.
And no blog post I've ever written, or no articles I've ever written — I mean, nothing I've ever written anywhere has gotten so many comments as these blog posts that we wrote, to the point where I ended up setting up a filter in my email to filter the alerts about these comments into their own folder, because I was so overwhelmed with the amount of comments.
And the comments were pretty much across the board from people who love Cesar Millan, and were accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about and of, you know, like how dare I, basically was the general tone of the comments.
A lot of them talking about how I'm just jealous of him. And, you know, truth be told, I guess I am somewhat jealous of him because I wish I had the kind of platform that he has in order to spread the gospel of dog training that I think is a lot more humane and it makes a lot more sense. And yeah, I mean, I guess I wish I were a millionaire, so in those ways, I suppose I'm jealous. But I wouldn't trade it all in, in order to be training dogs the way he's training dogs.
So after those blog posts and those comments, which came in for years and years and years, I sort of stopped wanting to write about Cesar Millan or talk about Cesar Millan, because I think the behavior of expressing my opinion about him had been punished by all these haters telling me what a jerk I am for not loving him.
It certainly has made me think about why he's so beloved. I think part of it is that there's something about him that's like the underdog who has made good. He talks a lot about being an immigrant and coming from a very poor background and starting with nothing. And he often actually relates that to dogs, which I don't quite see the connection there. But he argues that that helps him understand dogs, being an immigrant.
He also really does seem like sort of a magician. I think a lot of that has to do with good editing. I think if you choose the little bits of a whole training process to show in a consolidated amount of time, and then don't follow up to see the fallout or the aftermath of using these punishment-based techniques, I think it's possible to make for a clip that does seem sort of magical.
And I think I actually said this in one of the blog posts I wrote: you do have to give them credit for having good timing with his punishment. I think that plus the good editing is what makes him look so marvelous. These kicks that he gives and whatever else, he does have sort of an innate ability — erhaps you could say it's innate or learned — to punish dogs with the kind of timing that at least in the moment is effective. Although, like I've been saying, we don't know what the fallout is.
So why am I talking about the Dog Whisperer today of all days? Well, he has a new show coming out and it is airing tonight for the first time. It is called Better Human Better Dog. And here is the audio of the trailer:
Cesar Millan:
When I started my journey, I wanted to teach people there is no such thing as a bad dog
Narrator:
From the leader of the pack…
Woman:
She won't listen to me.
Cesar:
Today is a new day. Claim your space.
Narrator:
…comes a serene new series.
Cesar:
She has forgotten how to be a dog. No more excuses! Now or never
Narrator:
Discover tranquility through training.
Cesar:
I need you to be calm and confident.
Woman:
It's amazing!
Cesar:
You did good.
Narrator:
Cesar Millan. Better Human Better Dog. New series, Friday, July 30th at 9:00, National Geographic and Nat Geo Wild.
Annie:
So the trailer here and the images about this new show all show dogs with their eyes closed, kind of, and he has his eyes closed. And I think it's all supposed to look like he and the dogs are sort of meditating?
And what's interesting is, I've often thought about how he talks about the need to be more calm and confident and assertive, but it doesn't seem like he ever actually talks how to become a more calm, confident, assertive person. It's like, what is the plan in order to make that happen? Do you just need to like, do a lot of yoga or meditation? So maybe he actually explains that in the new show. I don't know. Well, we will have to see.
But in my experience, having been a dog trainer myself for 10 years or so, like I said, I just don't think that good dog training requires so much work on one's self. I think there's a lot that we can do simply by understanding how to smartly arrange environments and to think about the different kinds of conditioning and what's motivating a dog and what associations a dog is making.
Stuff that I feel like we can explain to clients very clearly the steps that need to be taken, rather than suggesting almost like, you know, you better get yourself into therapy for the next 10 years, by which point your dog might be dead.
Here's a clip I found of him talking a little bit about the show:
Interviewer:
So, Better Human Better Dog, how would you say this series maybe differs from Dog Whisperer, which a lot of people remember you from?
Cesar:
Well, Dog Whisperer, I used to go to people's home, you know, and now people are coming to my land, my Dog Psychology Center, 43 acres of magic. And so I have my own area where I can help people immediately practice, you know, all the activities, stretch, walk, run, rest. And sometimes they sleep, they do stay at the ranch, because I want to make sure that as soon as they wake up, they learn about the formula, the rituals and the symbols, you know?
So now I have a place where people can stay over. And so they can submerge themselves in my philosophy, you know, and with my community and with my animals. And so people just learn how do I, how do I do things? Why my energy is always a certain way, calm, comfort, love, and joy. Why I always practice exercise, then mental stimulation, then affection. Why I follow that formula. You know?
So I bring in people into my land now with my community and my animals and my family. So it's going to be completely different. It's definitely, it's like when people go to India, they go over there so they can practice that. So people coming to my ranch to submerge themselves and just, and just to be free.
Interviewer:
So what kind of issues are most coming to your ranch? Is there one in particular that seems to plague people?
Cesar:
Well, you know, I'm known to be the guy who can help you with aggression. I know I am known…it’s only three side effects that dog can develop, is aggression, fear, or ignoring you. You know, ignoring you is like, Oh my dog doesn't listen to me, he runs through the streets and chases the squirrels and things like that. That's, that's dangerous to the dog, you know, and annoying to the human.
But they're definitely the aggression is definitely a behavior that is dangerous to society. So the first episode, we're dealing with a dog named Goliath. His owner has neurological problems such as seizures. And so, when the paramedics come to him, Goliath becomes overprotective, rightfully so, you know? And so we are going to turn, actually, we turned that dog into a dog that can now be able to help that his human into a service dog. So now Goliath the pit bull who was showing signs of aggression, we turned him into a paramedic.
Interviewer:
Wow. Do you feel any dog can be rehabilitated into a good pet, or are there some that are just even you find that you, you can't help?
Cesar:
No many times it's not if the dog can’t change. Many times, it’s if the human is willing to do the work. And the truth is, many times the energy of the human is too, too soft for the dog. So it's not compatible, you know. So, many people rescue dogs for the wrong reasons. And that's why it's very important for people to understand energy.
You know, most of the friends that you have are compatible to you. That's why you get along. And so, and sometimes family members, you're not compatible, so you don't get along with them. You see it? So, that energetic understanding is very important, so you never have to worry about ‘can I ever change the dog.’ Cause your energy just by being a little stronger than the dog, automatically gives the dog a sense of direction. So your energy have to be calm-confident in order for the dog to share calm-openminded.
Interviewer:
Well, what do you hope people can take away from watching it?
Cesar:
Oh my God! Fully understanding that we don't have problems with mother nature, in this case, with a dog. The formula how to achieve happiness with a dog is learning how to connect, learning how to communicate, learning how to achieve the relationship that we are all looking for, which is trust, respect, and love. Imagine a world full of trust, respect, and love. It just, it would be super positive. We'll be a better planet.
You know, that's what I'm saying, Better human better dog, because the human needs to achieve this calm, comfort, love, and joy. The human needs to achieve trust, respect, and love. The human needs to do exercise, discipline, affection, body, mind, heart. So once you accomplish that, and then you can go to the Olympics, you see what I mean? That only the people that prepare themselves to be, you know, positive, calm, confident, fate, and all of that. They go to the Olympics. It's also, those are the better humans, right? To represent in the Olympics.
So in this case, you know, how you become a better human, it's just about your energy becoming calm, comfort, love, and joy, regardless if you don't have money, right? Cause this is not about money, fame and power. Animals don't care about money, fame and power. Animals can live with homeless people. Animals can live with handicapped people. Animals can live in the jungle of the Amazon.
So it's not about the wealth that we humans think we must have to have a dog. Cause a lot of people say, oh, I don't have a house, oh I don't — but homeless people don't have a house. Oh, I don't have a big backyard. It doesn't matter. That's not what makes a dog happy. What makes a dog happy is you know how to connect, communicate and have a natural, simple, profound relationship.
Interviewer
Mm. Well, thank you so much. And I'm sure that people will learn a lot from watching your series. Thank you. Take care.
Annie:
That is from ABC 7 Chicago, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I mean, I don't even know where to begin. There's so much that he says there that I just feel like it's just like, it's just somebody saying words that are strung together, [laughs] in a way that kind of sounds like it make sense? But not really.
I mean, for one thing, I think yards can really make some dogs happy. I also, I understand how nice it is to be able to bring dog owners to your own space, to teach them there. I mean, we have our own facility at School for the Dogs, and certainly is nice that they come to us, that we can control the environment to set up the dogs for success. But I also think going into people's homes, there's a lot of value to that. because the dog is not going to end up living at his Dog Psychology Center, I think is what he calls it.
But more than that, I mean, you just hear him talking about all of this energy stuff. Being calm, confident, love, joy. It's just sort of hilarious when you have a little bit of an understanding of dog body language to watch his shows, see how unhappy these dogs look. And yet his whole message seems to be about calmness and positivity and joy, et cetera, et cetera.
But you know what, it's a new show. Like I said, I am not a Cesar Millan expert. I have watched some episodes through the years of his show The Dog Whisperer, and I've watched some clips of his other shows, but I…I don't know. Maybe he has changed his ways.
Although, this clip of him talking about the show does not really give me a lot of confidence that he is now working with dogs in a way that acknowledges that there is a science of behavior that impacts how dogs learn, and that we can use what we know about behavior to train dogs without without force and coercion and without having to completely revamp who we are as people.
There was a show that I watched the other day on — you know, it's also funny that his show is now on Disney plus, because there are lots of dog trainers, and I think I actually talked about this in the last episode, talking about Jean Donaldson's book Culture Clash, where she talks specifically about Disney, and how in some ways we might blame a lot of people's expectations about dogs on Disney for giving us all these animated animal characters that seemed to talk and walk and think like people, encouraging people to have unrealistic expectations of pet dogs. Sort of thinking about dogs as furry people on four legs, rather than sort of meeting dogs where they are as dogs, and giving them what they need as dogs.
Cesar Millan has become such a part of our culture now that I worry that no other kind of dog training will ever be as popular as the kind of ill-advised, hard-to-explain type of punishment-based training that he calls, you know, he labels as something rooted in positivity and joy.
I think it's because — and I've mentioned this to a couple of dog trainers who've told me that it's nothing new, and I think they're right, that there have long been dog trainers who use these kinds of harsh methods. And people love it because punishment can get results and make people feel powerful. So using punishment can be reinforcing.
But what I think makes Cesar Millan different is the way that he coats it with this icing of new age-y, zen-ish, stuff. This mandate about people needing to become happier, healthier, calmer people.
I was watching a movie called Dog Gone Trouble on Netflix with my daughter the other day. And there was a Cesar Millan cameo, or a cartoon version of him, at least. And in this cameo, he's talking about this — although of course, he's talking directly to dogs who can understand his words and speak. Here's his little cameo in Dog Gone Trouble.
Cesar:
I want all of you to close your eyes and clear your minds. We're going to enter into trust, respect, and loyalty. Remember, that's what makes you a dog.
Dog 1:
Ha! And here I thought sniffing butts made us dogs.
Cesar:
But now let's do a breathing routine. I want all of you to bury yourself deep into your minds. Now find good feelings, let them grow into yourself and take you to your happy place.
Dog 2:
I want whatever bone this dude has been chewing.
Annie:
Uh, yeah. One thing that many dog trainers, when I've asked them how they feel about Cesar Millan, a lot of dog trainers will talk about — and positive reinforcement based dog trainers are mindful of trying to reinforce good behavior. So, often I've heard dog trainers say that they like the way that he encourages people to make sure their dogs get enough exercise and enrichment. And I think that that is true. So if I need to say something nice about Cesar Millan, I will say yay for encouraging people to give their dog exercise.
Overall I feel very vulnerable having now talked in a room by myself for half an hour about Cesar Millan. Like I said, I felt quite attacked, even though I didn't really agree with any of the comments that I got on these blog posts that Kate and I wrote years ago, just the sheer number of them was impactful.
So yeah, I feel kind of…yeah, I feel vulnerable. I feel vulnerable having criticized him without anybody next to me being like, Yeah, you're right on, Annie! [laughs] So I'm just being honest about that.
For that reason, I'd like to end this episode with an interview Cesar Millan did with Alan Titchmarsh in 2012. He is a British talk show host. I think he's mostly known for doing programs about gardening, but he had Cesar Millan on and I thought it really showed Cesar Millan's knowledge about animal behavior, or lack thereof, so I'm just going to end this episode playing this clip from this interview. And yeah, thanks for listening.
Cesar:
Well, first I was a dog walker. And I was called a Mexican guy who could walk a pack of dogs, before they called me The Dog Whisperer. And I walked dogs off leash. I didn’t know it was illegal to walk dogs off leash in America off leash. To me, it was the land of the free. Dogs have birthday parties, so they should be able to walk off leash. I grew up that way, I grew up on a farm, knowing that walking a dog should be off leash.
So, by being a dog walker, I developed a respect, a trust, with American people, and they said, well can you work with my dog? So then I opened the Dog Psychology Center. And that’s what the story was.
Alan Titchmarsh:
Now, there’s a difference where you’ve got owners, and you've got dogs. You're going to train dogs, you also sort of train owners, presumably. How much of it is their responsibility?
Cesar:
In the beginning, I wanted to learn from Americans how to train dog after watching Lassie and Rin Tin Tin.
[audience laughter]
And that I felt, I thought that all people in America had this, the same thing, Lassies and Rin Tin Tins. But then I saw people walking in the streets with their dogs. So that was unusual for me because in my country or where I'm from, I never experienced that. You know? So then that's when I said, well, instead of me training dogs, I'm going to train people, right? And that's what I say, I train people and rehabilitate dogs.
Alan:
So how long does the process take? An owner comes to you, is having problems with their dog. How quickly can you make a difference to what they do?
Cesar:
Well, for me and the dog is easy. But for me and the human, it takes a little while, because a lot of times people don't want to let go of the bad habits. You know, for example, you ask somebody, “How do you feel?” “I'm fine.” See, they don't recognize they're not calm. You know, they’re just saying the word fine. The dog doesn't know what you do for a living. He just knows how you live your life.
So when I come into a situation, I am calm and confident, right? Most of the people are, “He's not listening to me. I do everything you say. I read the books and he doesn't listen to me.” So they're tense and frustrated by the time I come to them. So to get the human away from that state of mind, it takes a little while.
Alan:
But your techniques are very controversial. Many say your techniques are old fashioned. You punish dogs, you hit them. I’ve seen you punch a dog in the throat to get it to behave. And most people, I’ll say for myself, that for me is totally unacceptable as a way of training a dog.
Cesar:
Well, obviously I would respectfully disagree with that. It's not a punch, it's a touch.
Alan:
I watched a video of it. If somebody touched me like that, I would hurt. You went for the throat and you punched the dog back, and the dog then the dog bit you and held onto your hand.
Cesar:
Well, it's a touch. It looks probably to you, but it's a touch.
Alan:
Having watched quite a lot of boxing matches, it looked to me like something Henry Cooper would deliver.
Cesar:
That’s not the goal, to punch the dog, the goal is just to snap the brain out of it. Right? And so we can then provide energy and body language.
Alan:
But you also work with electric shocks through collars and spikes on the collars. Spiked collars. You know, this is pretty barbaric treatment. We wouldn't treat children like this nowadays, you'd be locked up if we did. So what is your reasoning behind treating dogs like this?
Cesar:
Well, there is a certain situation for that purpose. You know, by the time that I come to a situation like that, the dog is already wearing that tool. You know? So when I came to America, I didn't use tools. We don't have pet shops where I'm from. So when you come into a situation where people are already using the tools, and they're not knowing how to use it, that's all I'm doing. I'm just showing them how to use it properly.
Alan:
But you just explained to me earlier on that people can't do what you do, because they've got the wrong attitude. Yet hey watch you do it. They'll go and try it. And by your own admission, they won't be able to do it as well as you do. So there's a great danger that they will maltreat their dogs hugely because they're not doing it, as you would say, properly.
Cesar:
Well, that's what I say, consult a professional. That's the key.
Alan:
But you’re on television. They're going to try it, aren’t they?
Cesar:
Well, unfortunately, right, but just like a cigarette, they said don't smoke still and people are still doing it. Eh, you can only help people to understand.
Alan:
Now, that sounds a bit like an excuse. Can I just read your — we've have to say, we've never had so many complaints about a guest. So lot of points I need to make here. You know, we could have said that we won't have him on. You’re on because I want to put these points to you.
Pain and distress to dogs. When people talk about copycat training, the risk to owners. Perhaps one statement I can read is the RSPCA, they’re prevention of cruelty to animals, who say aversive training techniques, which have been seen to be used by Cesar Millan, can cause pain and fear for dogs, and may worsen their behavioral problems. The RSPCA believes that using such techniques is unacceptable, nor are they necessary to change dog behavior for the better, when other dog trainers use reward-based methods to train dogs very effectively.
Cesar:
Well, my goal is to teach people how to become calm in the first place, how to prevent from ever going into that situation. So that the whole concept or the idea of trust your instincts is for you to reconnect yourself with your natural way of being. So you don't have to use tools.
Alan:
But would you ever stop using these aggressive ways yourself? I mean, you still do it, you still do it yourself. You know, you still use the foot to kick the dog in the soft underbelly, beyond the rib cage. You still use these, you know, the electric shock collars, the spike collars, the punching in the throat, so until you stop doing that and say there are better techniques of bringing up your dog, training your dog, people are going to copy you!
Cesar:
I do use food. I do use food and one situation, actually a parrot helped me to achieve the goal that this lady wanted. This lady wanted to kiss the dog and the dog. Every time she comes in near the dog, the dog bites her face. So when I came to her house, I saw how the parrot was in control. So I said, put the little parrot on your shoulder. Now go kiss the dog. So they were very respectful to the parrot. You see what I'm saying? So it's not just treats that you can use, you can use your environment to actually achieve what you want.
Alan:
But does it not worry you… you can't get pleasure out of hitting a dog, surely?
Cesar:
I don't do it out of pleasure. I do have to snap the brain out of it.
Alan:
But there are other means. People say there are other means. Experts say there are other means of doing that. You know, you said dogs are pack animals. There’s a professor here of anthrozoology who says dogs do not set up wolf type packs. They don't organize themselves in the way wolves do. Dogs are not striving, in other words, for household domination.
Cesar:
Mm, well, the whole point of family is a pack. So the dog obviously finds himself very comfortable —
Alan:
But we don’t beat our children, we’re a pack if you like.
Cesar:
It’s a family. It’s, it's semantics. You know, it's, it's, it's the word. If you don't like the word, that's fine. It's the whole point is, it's to create a family. Eh, I've seen many times how a cat controls a Rottweiler. At the moment the dog comes, the cat goes Wacka! And from that point on the cat is in control, so that the dog actually listens to the cat and not his human.
Alan:
Your methods no doubt will continue to be controversial, but thank you for coming.
Cesar:
Thanks for letting me be here.
[applause]
[music and outro]
