15 OctEpisode 174 | Suing Cesar: Meet the lawyer of teen mauled by Dog Whisperer’s dog. And: How to train 2 dogs at once
In the summer of 2017, Lidia Matiss, then a high schooler, went to visit her mom at her workplace and, inside the office, was brutally attacked by an off-leash dog. Her mother worked for Cesar's Way, which belongs to Cesar Millan, aka The Dog Whisperer; the dog was Millan's late pit bull, Junior. Annie interviews LA-based lawyer Brian Adesman, who is representing the victim in a suit against Millan, and learns some of the surprising details about the case, including Millan's blaming of the victim and how Queen Latifah's dead dog fits into the picture. Also, Annie answers a question from a longtime client who wants to know how to go about training a new dog, and her old dog at the same time. She mentions the Revol crate, the Treat and Train, and the Good Dog Training course, all available at StoreForTheDogs.com.
For a limited time, we're offering a 30-minute virtual private session when you purchase our Good Dog Training course. Learn more when you do our free and useful 1-hour master class at anniegrossman.com/masterclass.
Have a training question you'd like answered? Submit it at schoolforthedogs.com/qanda. Learn more about Brian Adesman at www.qureshi.law/brian-adesman. Like this podcast? Please leave a five-star rating and a review on iTunes!
Subscribe: iTunes
Mentioned in this episode:
Treat & Train Remote Treat Dispenser
Good Dog Training Online Course
Transcript:
Annie:
I'm excited to share this interview with this lawyer who is representing someone suing Cesar Milan, AKA the Dog Whisperer. But first I just wanted to quickly answer a dog training question that came in from a long time School for the Dog's client, Elizabeth Ramirez, who worked with us years ago in New York city with her French bulldog Wonton and has since moved to DC and recently got a new French bulldog puppy named Hoagie.
Elizabeth wrote me:
I'm currently living in a one bedroom by myself. What's the best way to train Hoagie in the same space where Wonton is hanging out. Won gets very agitated if I'm with Hoagie in a separate space, like the bedroom, even if she gets treats.
Really good question. And my brief answer is try training them both at the same time. This is going to help Wonton feel good about Hoagie's existence because Wonton is gonna be part of the action. One way to do that is to have them both in crates right next to each other. Actually, I think training dogs right next to each other in crates is also a good way to help stave off any kind of dog-dog resource guarding.
You can click one of them for doing something as simple as a hand touch. You could click both of them, click and treat both of them for doing something as simple as a hand touch, treats, et cetera. And it's just a lot easier to manage if you're working with two dogs in crates.
I often mention on the podcast, the crate that we sell at storeforthedogs.com, which is the Revol, big fan of it for so many reasons. But one reason I really like it is the top has a hatch that opens up which makes it really easy to deliver treats directly from the top without having to get your fingers in the sides of the crate or anything else.
If doing that is too much, you could at least stick like the Groov, which is something, a toy that you can stick in the side of the Revol and put peanut butter on it. Let one of them lick off that while you're training the other one and then switch. You can also use a Treat and Train, which is a remote controlled treat dispensing device that I like to use a lot for a variety of reasons. I've also talked about it before on the podcast. We also sell that you can get it at Store for the Dogs, or we have a short link, which is schoolforthedogs.com/tt for treat and train.
And you can even sit it on top of the crate so that the treats will fall directly into the crate through that opening, like the Revol crate has, and push that button to dispense treats into the crate while you're working with the other dog in the other crate or outside of the crate, I guess.
But again I think keeping both dogs and crates while training for some things can be useful. It's a good way to get the dog feeling good about being in the crate. It's gonna help you control both the dogs a little bit better. You truly have a captive audience when you're training a dog in a crate. So if you're working on teaching something like sit or down where you can really just wait to capture the behavior, a crate is a good way to go.
Anyway, hope that helps, Elizabeth. Elizabeth also just bought our good dog training course, which you can get at schoolforthedogs.com/courses. And I hope that will help her as well. If you go through our Masterclass which you can access at anniegrossman.com/masterclass, we currently have an offer there where you get a 30 minute virtual session with one of our trainers when you buy the course. You can learn more about it if you go through the masterclass, which is totally free.
Okay. And now on to the rest of the episode. If you have a dog training question you would like to have answered on the podcast, I will try to get to it. You can submit it at schoolforthedogs.com/QandA.
[music and intro]
Brian Adesman:
My name is Brian Adesman. I am an attorney in California and I do litigation. So mostly like civil lawsuits and all different types of litigation, really. I was practicing at a big law firm here in Los Angeles for about five years. And then just recently sort of went off on my own. And so I have my own firm. And then I also practice with sort of a partner, you could say, a business, lawyer law partner named Omar Kareshi, and he has his own firm called Kareshi Law.
And we do all different types of litigation, and some of those involve dog bite cases where we represent plaintiffs who have been injured.
Annie:
And you have your own dog, right?
Brian:
I do. Yeah. Her name is Cash. She's a beautiful little pug. I’ve had her since she was, I think like six weeks old. And now she's about four years old now. She's great. I love dogs.
Annie:
And, I'm curious, have you done any training with Cash?
Brian:
She's a naturally extremely well behaved dog and she's very food motivated as I think most pugs are. So training her has been really easy. I did watch some YouTube videos when she was a puppy to sort of teach her how to potty train and not pull on the leash, but she hasn't required too much training. She knows a few tricks. She knows how to sit. she knows down, she knows leave it.
And I brought her also to some training sessions at Petco, and I thought it was gonna be one of those things where I could just pay them and drop her off and come back and she would know every trick. And they were like, no, you have to be here. It's like mostly teaching you how to train her. And you know, it's just like, oh man, it's not what I signed up for, [laughs] but I attended a few of those, and yeah, she's just an amazingly well behaved dog naturally.
She's really, really great and really smart too. I mean, she pretty much just understood potty training just naturally. I mean, it only took like a week or two and she started to understand she couldn't go to the bathroom in the house and stuff. And so, yeah, she's really great.
Annie:
So it sounds like you, like most people never gave dog training a whole lot of thought, probably, until you got a dog, but even then it sounds like it wasn't something that took up much brain space for you.
Brian:
Yeah. It's always been one of those things that I've wished I've had more time to do. Like there's a million tricks I wish I could teach her how to do. But yeah, it is something that I definitely only started learning about recently. And, I grew up with dogs, my whole childhood I've always had a dog, you know, lots of family dogs.
And Cash, my current dog, she's the only dog I've ever had that can be off leash, can be around other dogs. And I think that's cause I got her as a puppy. I know you could probably tell me a lot more about this. All of our other dogs we got from the pound. So it was really hard to, you know, let 'em run around outside unless it was fenced in, and anytime there were other dogs they'd get really aggressive. But with Cash she's like the most timid, submissive dog of all time. Like if she sees a dog across the street, she'll get down on her stomach and like roll over. But yeah, dog training definitely is something that I've only recently sort of started learning about.
Annie:
So I contacted you and Omar because I wanted to learn more about this particular case that you're working on. Which I honestly, I don't know a whole lot more than what I maybe read on yahoo.com or TMZ. So I'm hoping you can kind of walk me through this case that interests me as a dog trainer. And certainly I know as a lawyer, there's stuff you can't talk about, but I'd love to know what you can talk about. So maybe talk about how this case came to you, and then tell me a little bit about the details that are publicly available.
Brian:
Sure. Yeah. And this case, it involves Cesar Millan, the famous Dog Whisperer, which is I think why it's getting most of the media attention that it's gotten. But we represent a young woman named Lydia Matis, and she was a star gymnast. She was practicing gymnastics at a level 10 in high school, which is the highest level in the USA gymnastics junior Olympics program. And she was getting recruited by a bunch of different universities for gymnastics, including an Ivy League University, University of Pennsylvania.
And in the middle of her training to become this amazing gymnast, she was actually attacked by Cesar Millan's dog named Junior who I believe is a pit bull sort of. The dog I think recently passed away, but it was sort of Cesar Millan's pride and joy dog, kind of treated him as a child. And after the attack, she hasn't been the same. She no longer can do gymnastics. She was severely injured.
Annie:
Now, how exactly did she encounter Junior? How did that happen?
Brian:
Yeah, that's a good question. So Lydia's mom actually worked for Cesar Millan and so she was just,
Annie:
Was she like a producer or, or an assistant or what was she a dog trainer?
Brian:
No, she worked sort of in the back end. She was working in the, I believe the business and legal affairs office for Cesar Millan and his company. And so she was visiting her mom at Cesar Millan's office. And when she went to visit her, Junior was roaming the halls and wasn't being restrained by anyone. And I think there were a bunch of other dogs as well. And, you know, maybe riled up, maybe felt threatened. The exact circumstances are not entirely clear, but for whatever reason when Junior saw our client, he attacked.
Annie:
And was Cesar Millan there when this happened?
Brian:
It's not clear exactly where he was at that time. Although I have seen, I think when Junior first passed away, he posted a video on YouTube talking about Junior and he mentioned, I don't wanna put words in his mouth, so don't quote me on this. But if I recall, he mentioned something like he'd only been away from Junior like two times in the entire time that he had Junior. So I believe his claim is that he wasn't there at the time. But we're obviously going to try to prove and think we have a lot of evidence to suggest that he was in fact there.
But either way, because Junior was his dog, he at the end of the day is gonna be responsible for, you know, what Junior does.
Annie:
Were there people who witnessed what happened beyond Lydia?
Brian:
Sure. Yeah. There, there were other people, other employees who were present during the incident. So there are witnesses that can corroborate exactly what happened and sort of the details of the attack.
Annie:
So she was severely attacked, I guess, what bitten all over her body? Was it puncture wounds then that she suffered?
Brian:
Exactly. There were puncture wounds on her leg. And when you got that type of injury it can affect the muscles under the skin. And basically the bite just caused some deep puncture wounds, lacerations, and she was immediately taken to the emergency room after it happened. And she's been doing all sorts of physical therapy and other things to try to remedy the injuries she suffered. But again, I mean the, the outlook isn't looking great in terms of her getting back into gymnastics anytime soon.
Annie:
And that was four years ago that it happened?
Brian:
It was in August, 2017.
Annie:
Now, was there any attempt by Cesar Millan and I guess — I mean, his organization is called what, the Cesar Millan or Dog Psychology —
Brian:
Cesar's Way. That’s his company.
Annie:
Okay. Did they try and settle this out of court?
Brian:
We're not, as lawyers, we're not really allowed to discuss anything dealing with settlement, but I can definitely tell you that it is not settled as of yet. And as her lawyers, we're ready to take it to trial. Obviously litigation, it's a really long process, and anything can happen. But we're in the middle of that process, and certainly anticipate taking it to trial, and ready to take it to trial.
Annie:
Now, what do you say to someone who says, how could this be? He's Cesar Millan, he's the dog whisperer, he's supposed to have a unique ability to deal with even difficult dogs. I mean, isn't there sort of like a, isn't there cognitive dissonance? How could this expert, the best known dog trainer in the world, have a dog that could so severely injure a young girl?
Brian:
Right. You know, I mean, I think that's partially one of the reasons why these cases against Cesar Millan get so much attention, is when you portray yourself as an expert and then something goes wrong like this, I think the outrage that comes from that is especially pronounced because of that cognitive dissonance you just mentioned, and sort of the hypocrisy I think that's behind it.
But in terms of, you know, you could probably say much more than I could about the limitations on dog training and the propensity for viciousness that certain breeds of dogs have over others and things of that nature. So generally in a situation that we're in now with litigation, what we would do to answer those types of questions that, you know, we believe any reasonable juror would have, is we would hire an expert, a dog expert to opine on those types of things. As to who's at fault, how much fault, things that could have been done to prevent this, and whether it was completely unpreventable.
And those are the things that a dog expert would actually talk about at trial. And we would hire our expert. I would imagine he would hire an expert himself and, you know, both sides would get their day in court to try to convince the jury as to just how preventable this was or was not.
Annie:
Is there any conversation about his style of training, then? Because, I mean, just when you say the word expert, the first thing I think of is that, you know, plenty of people consider Cesar Millan an expert, but he has no formal degrees or even certifications that are widely recognized by independent third party certification giving organizations.
Brian:
Right. Yeah. And I'd imagine at trial, those types of questions will definitely be at issue and will be things that I think both sides expert will probably opine about, especially if his claim is that he trained junior using his techniques, which I imagine will be his claim, then that will definitely become a question that will be explored at trial.
And you know, we will have an expert that will give our expert's opinion. And again, I assume — I don't think he'll testify as his own expert, although that would be a really interesting legal situation I haven't seen before, but I imagine he probably will hire some other expert to talk about how his training methods are completely above board.
But yeah, I mean, this isn't the first time that Cesar Millan has been sued for similar types of attacks. I don't think that the previous attacks involved Junior, her per se, but, you know, just from what I've seen that's been publicly reported, it looks like in 2006, there were two lawsuits filed against him. Two separate lawsuits that were filed, I think within a week of one another.
And the first lawsuit looks like it involved the former publicist and her partner. And in that suit, the couple claimed that they came up with the name of the Dog Whisperer. So I guess that wasn't really involving a dog attack, but then later that week there was another lawsuit filed in 2006 that did involve a dog attack. And in that suit, it was a producer who filed suit against him.
Annie:
A producer of his show?
Brian:
I don't believe so. I think it was a producer. I don't believe it was a producer of his show, but I'm actually not entirely sure. Because, you know, we don't get like all of these core documents generally, just by way of filing suit against him. But so yeah, I don't have all the details, but I don't think it was a producer of his show. I think it was a different show.
But in that case, what the producer claimed in the lawsuit was that Cesar Millan’s training facility subjected the producer's five year old Labrador retriever named Gator to inhumane treatment. And in that lawsuit, it was alleged that Gator had to be rushed to the vet just hours after being left with staff at Millan’s Center. And that the dog was covered with bruises and gasping for breath and an oxygen tent after being to run on a treadmill.
And so that was an interesting case. I'm not sure exactly how it resolved. I would imagine it probably settled out of court because it's just generally very, very rare for cases to actually go to trial. And when they do, especially when they're against high profile people like Cesar Millan, they usually get a lot of press. So I'd imagine that probably settled.
But then again, in February of 2015, he was sued by a critical care nurse in Florida who claimed that she was attacked by a vicious pit bull that had been prematurely released from Millan's dog training center. And in that lawsuit, she claimed that she suffered disfiguring open wounds, deep muscle and tendon lacerations, bone fractures from the attack that she experienced on September 23rd, 2014.
And in that lawsuit she claimed that just six days after the dog had been released from the dog psychology center that Cesar Millan runs, that she was attacked and that the dog was released prematurely and that she suffered damages of loss of feeling and function in her left hand, and a bunch of really, really horrible stuff.
And I know that in that case, there was some public comments made by The Dog Psychology Center. A spokesperson said that Millan never had any contact with the dog and never trained the animal. And so I don't think there was any sort of admission of wrongdoing or any responsibility or accountability that they took for that incident based on what I've seen.
And, you know, in our case, similarly, I think they just recently released a public statement that essentially claimed this case is a shakedown, and our client’s only interested in money. And just really couldn't be further from the truth. And it's kinda disheartening.
Annie:
Well, are they denying that this attack happened at all?
Brian:
So they have, they've alleged several different defenses in this case, which is their right. It's pretty common for a defendant to allege sort of alternative theories of what happened. But based on what I've seen, it seems like their major defense is not to deny that it happened. But the defense that got most widely reported on was their defense that our client essentially assumed the risk of being attacked by entering the building and being around Junior, that our clients somehow should have known that she could be attacked.
Annie:
That sounds like a sort of crazy — it sounds sort of crazy. I mean, it sounds to me like the girl was gonna go visit her mother who worked for the world’s most famous dog trainer. A, you don't assume risk by going into somebody's office, no matter who's office it is. It's not like assuming the risk of going skydiving or something.
Brian:
Right.
Annie:
B, I mean, if you expect anyone to have dogs who are gonna behave well around strangers, it would be a famous dog trainer. But so what's their other defense that they're claiming?
Brian:
You know, we don't really find out exactly. Basically what happens in California most often when a lawsuit's filed, is parties, the defense will just throw the kitchen sink in terms of defenses and just make every possible conceivable defense that could even theoretically make sense. And then oftentimes even a bunch that don't. And so we don't exactly what defense they're gonna go with at trial at this point.
So it's unclear exactly what their leading defense will be, but again, that assumption of the risk defense is the one that's been definitely most widely reported. And when Cesar Millan or his spokespeople gave a comment to the press about this case, it didn't seem like they were wavering from that defense or that, you know, they didn't make any comment like that's not our defense, we actually think this. So, you know, we think it's pretty safe to assume that we'll probably see something like that at trial.
Annie:
Where does Queen Latifah fit into all of this?
Brian:
Yeah, that's an other reason I think this case got some press. So in the complaint, we explained that previously Junior had attacked Queen Latifah's dog and, and killed Queen Latifah's dog, unfortunately. And then Cesar Millan basically covered that whole thing up, claiming that Queen Latifah's dog was struck by a car. And that's what he told Queen Latifah and instructed his employees basically to say as well. And that was something that we uncovered through our investigation before we filed this lawsuit.
Basically, as lawyers, we have a duty to investigate any potential case that we're gonna file in court. And we're also considered officers of the court and have an obligation to make sure that any claims we make are supported by evidence, and that they're not frivolous, and that they're not untrue.
And so generally speaking with any case before we draft and file a complaint, we will investigate the surrounding circumstances. And that can entail a bunch of different things up to hiring private investigators or interviewing witnesses, talking with people who were around the scene of the incident at that time.
And that was something that we uncovered and definitely corroborated with with lots of evidence. And it's currently, it's something that they deny and that Cesar Millan has denied ever since the story broke. But I can assure you that I have seen the evidence and we feel very confident in making that claim that that did in fact happen.
And it's relevant because in California, under the laws involving dog bites, one of the things that you sometimes have to show is that the dog had a propensity for violence, and that it's something that the owner of the dog either knew or should have known. And so in this case, it's highly relevant that Cesar Millan's dog Junior had previously attacked other dogs or other people. Anything of that nature just shows that he was basically on notice that this dog had propensities to be violent.
And so at that point, the onus is on him to take the proper precautions to make sure that the dog doesn't attack any other animal or any other human. And in this case, those precautions were very clearly not taken.
Annie:
Well, how could that have happened and it never got reported, and there was no consequence for him or the dog?
Brian:
So I can't get into too much details, but all I can say is there are many ways you can sort of bury a story if you have enough money and of lawyers. There are NDAs that can be signed. There are people that can be paid to be silent or to change their story of events. And Cesar Millan is a very powerful person with deep pockets and a motivation to not let something like that ruin his career.
Annie:
So it's possible Queen Latifah may have gotten a large check in order to not go public with this story, for example?
Brian:
Well that's possible. I don't think that's what happened here. I think Queen Latifah honestly had no idea that this happened and that nobody who knew that this incident happened felt comfortable speaking out about it. I think that's more what happened in this case. I don't know, honestly, if Queen Latifa, I don't think she's made any sort of public comment about this since it broke, but I'd have to imagine that she's probably been personally informed about —
Annie:
But according to you guys, she was told that the dog was hit by a car.
Brian:
That's correct. Yup. Exactly.
Annie:
Now in your investigations then that you guys did, was that the only case of any of his dogs causing harm, or were you specifically focusing on issues of this one dog causing harm?
Brian:
No, our investigation’s pretty broad. And it isn't the only case of harm that we found caused by his dogs or dogs under his control. Or at least people that have alleged that they were attacked by his dogs or dogs under his control. Like I mentioned earlier, there've been several lawsuits that have made similar allegations.
There's a few interesting questions I think involved in this case. I mean, one is about the specific attack that our client had to unfortunately experience, but then sort of broader questions that you sort of raised in this discussion about the methods he uses to train and control dogs and also just general accountability and safe practices and safeguards.
When you're in a profession where there's a serious risk of injury, you have to be accountable and you have to put in the proper safeguards, and based on everything that we've seen and everything that we've alleged in our complaint and thus far in this litigation, it just does not look like those safeguards were in place in any meaningful way in with Cesar Millan's dog training business.
Annie:
Like what's an example of a safeguard that you think should have been in place, can you say something like that?
Brian:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, and again, I'm happy to talk about safeguards I personally think would be reasonable, but in the setting of this lawsuit, that would also probably be something that I think an expert would be perfect to opine on, but just a sort of a lay person in this, you know, dogs that have a propensity for violence I think at the very least should probably be on a leash when others are present, and the leash should be either connected to someone's hand or to the ground or something like that, just to keep the dog restrained so that dogs that have a past and a history of being violent aren't allowed to just sort of run rough shot around people who are lawfully on the premises, you know? That would be one example.
Annie:
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of amazing that one would need an expert to say a potentially dangerous dog should be on a leash. [laughs]
Brian:
That's just my lay person you know, first principles of dog training safety.
Annie:
Interesting, very interesting idea, Brian!
Brian:
Yeah. Exactly. But maybe you've got some ideas of some safeguards that could have been in place as an expert. Is there anything you can think of that would be sort of innovative or interesting ways to protect the other people?
Annie:
Well, certainly I think if you have a dog who has a history of killing other animals, there should be a lot of management efforts made to keep that dog from hurting at least other dogs, if not people as well. I mean, one thing that, if I can divorce the fact that the dog belonged to Cesar Millan and was trained with whatever methods from this whole issue, and sort of look at it in a more just a dog attacked a person way, I would wonder what the antecedents were, why he attacked her, what was happening? Was she doing something unusual? Did she enter at a time when the dog was already aroused?
Was, I mean, not that it would be her fault at all, but if she was doing, backflips in the office and the dog hadn't ever seen someone doing backflips that I might understand, not that I would condone it, but I understand why the dog freaked out if the dog had — I mean, I just wonder what was happening that caused him to attack her, but not to attack, you know, I don't know, the FedEx guy who had entered the office 10 minutes before.
Brian:
Right. Yeah, I mean, I can assure you, there were no backflips being done in this incident and that it was completely unprovoked in terms of, you know, our client really wasn't doing anything but trying to visit her mom.
Annie:
I don't doubt it, I guess I'm wondering, is there anything that you have gleaned about dog training from this case or other cases that you've done having to do with dog bites? You know, like you said, as someone who is not a dog trainer, is sort of a layman in this area, because, you know, I have strong feelings about how the kinds of methods Cesar Millan uses can cause aggression in dogs. But if you had talked to me about this 10, 12 years ago before I sort of got into dog training, I think that I would have had no clue that the kind of work he does might actually cause aggression.
Have your thoughts about training and aggression developed or changed in your working with dog bite victims in general or about this case specifically?
Brian:
Yeah. I don't know if they've changed so much. I guess the major takeaway is that I've sort of come to realize as again, sort of a lay person and in all of this is that, I think it's risky business. Not unimportant. I think dog training is very important, but there are certainly risks that seem to be involved when that's what you're doing. And that's really important to implement proper safeguards, to protect other people against dogs that if they're being trained to correct some sort of behavioral issues they're having, that's obviously going to be a high risk situation that sort of you as the trainer, not you specifically, but whoever the trainer is, needs to sort of understand and appreciate those risks.
There's also I know a lot of talk about specific breeds being more dangerous than other breeds. And again, sort of speaking as a lay person, I don't doubt that there's probably some truth to that, but I think that whole debate gets very — I think people get generally very emotionally hijacked by that debate, because dog lovers are very defensive of the dog breeds that they love. And so I think when discussing things like different breeds, and different breeds being more dangerous than other breeds, there's obviously going to be some truth there, but also a lot of gray.
And so I think, you know, deserves a nuanced conversation by experts, and it needs to be taken seriously, and there needs to be accountability.
Annie:
When you guys search for experts for this case, what are the kinds of credentials that you're looking for?
Brian:
Basically just experience at the end of the day. I mean there is sort of, legally speaking, the court does gatekeeping in terms of deciding whether or not a particular person who any party is suggesting should be testifying as an expert. The court will do an investigation into that person based on their credentials to determine whether there's a colorable claim that that person actually is an expert and not just somebody who perhaps did an online course about dog training and so they claim to be an expert.
And so there are some kind of legal safeguards in place to make sure whoever's claiming to be an expert is, in fact, an expert. And at the end of the day, we just want somebody who has the requisite pedigree and resume to where any potential juror out there would hear him or her discuss their qualifications and their experience and think, yeah, I trust this person to be honest and credible and experienced enough to where I'm going to respect whatever opinion they give.
I know it's kind of a vague lawyerly answer, but that's sort of the type of person we'd be looking for. And you know, who knows?
Annie:
Do you consider Cesar Millan an expert?
Brian:
I mean, again, if that was the person that the defense in this case put up as their expert, I would be pretty happy with that as representing the plaintiff in this case, because we, number one, sort of, as you touched upon, I think he has a checkered past and in terms of some very vocal people who disagree with his expertise and his methods, and also he would obviously have a huge conflict of interest and in weighing in on this case considering he's the defendant. So yeah, I mean, personally do I consider him an expert? I wouldn't be taking my pug to be trained by him. I would probably try to look for someone else first.
Annie:
So do you think his training methods will be at all a conversation in the suit if it actually does end up going to court?
Brian:
I think it's completely up to them on that. So if they basically
Annie:
Up to them meaning up to the defense, whether they're going to talk about the training methods?
Brian:
Exactly. That’ll basically, I imagine more than likely will be something that they would need to sort of put at issue in the case. You know, if their claim is Junior couldn't have attacked anybody because he's been trained his whole life by Cesar Millan, the dog expert, and his expertise can't be questioned, well then obviously we're going to definitely weigh in on that and have our own experts talk about why that's not a great defense.
And whether or not we'll force that as an issue, you never know. At trial, it's a crazy, crazy system we have in terms of going to trial, and suing others, and anything's possible and anything's fair game. So yeah, I think it's highly possible that that might come up down the road.
Annie:
But not an offensive strategy.
Brian:
Yeah. Probably. Well, we certainly not offensive in the common vernacular of that term.
Annie:
No, I mean, it's not your defense, the plaintiff is not the one coming forward and saying his training methods are questionable.
Brian:
Yeah. I mean, at this point in time, I don't think that's our most persuasive argument, to be honest. I mean, I think it's an interesting question. And I think it's one that the public deserves to have, like I said, an honest conversation about. But in this case, I think what really matters is that the dog did in fact bite her and that's really what this case is about. And
Annie:
They're denying that. Sorry I interrupted you.
Brian:
No it’s okay, go ahead.
Annie:
Now I know, I read a little bit about one case of a dog who was resource guarding on the TV show and ended up needing to be rehomed. And I don't know if that ended up in a lawsuit or not. But having watched the show, I have long suspected that — I mean, on the show, there's people he's trying to help who get bitten during the show. And I'm guessing that those people go home and often things get worse rather than better. But are there just ironclad NDAs that you would guess that people on the show are signing so that they're not returning to him with blame?
Brian:
Yeah, so I think anything I would say on this in terms of hypotheticals would be just purely speculation, but what I would say, I think all of us understand intuitively, is if somebody's signing up to be on his show and bringing their dogs in, I just think it's an entirely different situation altogether than somebody who's just visiting their mom at his office.
So I would just think, just intuitively that if somebody who went on the show, knowing what the show is about, understanding what his methods are understanding, especially if they've seen other people on the show have been bitten, then their argument of assuming the risk becomes a little bit more credible, a little bit stronger, a little bit more intuitively sound.
But when it's someone who's visiting an office building to go see their mom after school, that's just an entirely different situation altogether. So, yeah, I don't know if he's had to deal with any legal issues with other people who have been bitten on a show, but I do think it would be an interesting case for sure. I would love to see that case or to be a part of that potential case and have that argument as to whether or not somebody can even assume the risk of being bitten by a dog like that. It's an interesting legal question, I think.
Annie:
Maybe it could be a class action suit, cause there's been a lot of episodes! Now this is not the first dog bite case that you've worked on. Is that right?
Brian:
Yeah. We've done some other dog bite cases. Especially if you also include in that sort of pre-litigation dog bite cases, meaning someone is bitten by a dog and the situation gets resolved before needing to file a complaint. You know, that's how a lot of cases, dog bite or not, get resolved. It's not always necessary to file a complaint, go to court.
Litigation process in general is a hugely invasive process for both sides, the defense and the plaintiff. So generally speaking, if somebody is a victim of an attack, the first goal is to get it resolved without needing to actually litigate. And usually most people have insurance, and usually insurance companies are willing to negotiate to some extent as to whether or not they're willing to make the victim whole before needing to resort to the courts.
And that's especially true in California. California has some very, I don't want to say punitive, but very victim friendly dog bite laws that make it very hard for somebody who's in that position who owns a dog who's just bitten somebody to sort of roll the dice and go to court and try to win that case for the defense. It's a really hard case. It's an uphill battle based on California law.
Annie:
So it's a good state to get bitten in [laughs].
Brian:
You could say that, yeah, there's worse states to be bitten by a dog in, that's for sure. So I don't want to get into too much of the legal, boring nitty gritty, but essentially California has what's called strict liability for dog bite offenses, which just basically means if your dog bites someone, you're on the hook. There are very few colorable defenses you can make in court to that.
Also another kind of interesting thing legally, in law school, you sort of learn about what's called like the one bite rule, which is just a grossly oversimplification of dog bite law basically means you get one dog bite. Your dog can bite one person and you're clear for the first one, but you're on the hook for the second because you knew or should have known. But that's really not the law, especially not in California. And I don't even know if it's the law anywhere, but California has much more strict laws when it comes to dog ownership.
Annie:
Is there something that particularly interests you about this area of law or did you just kind of happen into it?
Brian:
I think just what interests me about this area of law is what interests me about any other area of law. This might sound cheesy or very lawyerly, but I like to represent victims and make sure that victims are compensated.
You know, people will use the term ambulance chaser or something as a derogatory term. And I've honestly never even understood why it's derogatory. If someone's in an ambulance, they've suffered something horrible. And in my opinion, they deserve to be made whole, assuming that they weren't somehow in the wrong.
So, yeah, I like to make sure that people aren't going to be bullied, people aren't going to be pushed around, people aren't going to be silenced, and that people are going to be held accountable. And so if it's a dog bite, happy to take it. If it's something else where that type of scenario is at play, I'm happy to take that as well.
Annie:
Is this the first case you've had where there's a dog trainer involved?
Brian:
That’s a good question. Let me think. I think so. I would think that's probably true. I don't think any of the other dog bite cases involved a trainer per se. So speaking for myself, I think that's probably true. Omar, I can't speak for him. He's had a lot of dog bite cases as well, so he maybe has had one against trainers, but for myself personally, I think that's probably true.
Annie:
And have your views of Cesar Millan as a trainer changed through your work doing dog bite related law?
Brian:
I mean, to be honest, I don't even mean this is like a dig against Cesar Millan. I didn't really know who he was other than that South Park included them in an episode, I think like five years ago or something like that. So to be honest, I've been kind of surprised at the interest in this case and Cesar Millan more generally. So I don't know if I had very strong views about him before this case.
But since taking this case, I have certainly looked into and read about the different views and a lot of people who are sort of not too happy about the types of training techniques he employs. And I guess my only view on it is that if his techniques that he employs results in people getting attacked by dogs, then I'm definitely not in favor.
Annie:
Okay. Well, I think that’s really…[laughs]
Brian:
That's a safe answer, I think.
Annie:
I think that that is very well said. Well, I think you, earlier too, you touched on safety measures that could and should be put into place. And I think whatever your training methods may be, and certainly the training methods that I'm for are very different than what Cesar Millan proselytizes–
Brian:
Yeah, I mean, I can say with my dog, you know, I own a pug. I think it's a safe, uncontroversial statement to say they're pretty docile creatures.
Annie:
Well they’re individuals, I'm sure pugs have nearly mauled people in the past at some point, but go ahead.
Brian:
Actually, just kind of an aside on that. My dog is so submissive and pleasant that I couldn't even imagine an aggressive pug. So at one point I think I looked on YouTube for just videos of aggressive pugs, because I just couldn't even, like, I just didn't even have a schema in my mind for what it would look like.
But anyway, I was going to say, again, this is just for what it's worth. I'm not a dog trainer and I'm not a dog expert. But when I was looking into how to train my dog, I know there was a lot of stuff I read about online, about positive reinforcement instead of negative reinforcement. So giving them the stick, you give them the carrot. And that's definitely in my personal experience, been much more effective.
Annie:
I would say, I mean, I think the carrot versus the stick, that's maybe reductive, but it's an okay way to put it. But more than that though, I think it's about like, whatever kind of dog you're working with, if you have a dog that has any kind of behavior issues, yeah. Like you said, you know, use a fricking leash. I mean, certainly you could do muzzle training or there are tons of other things you could do sort of from a management perspective, but it sounds like none of that was put into place.
But I also think the one bite rule is interesting to hear about, because whatever kind of animal you're dealing with, of course you as a teacher should be learning, as a teacher or a trainer or whatever you want to call it, learning as you go. And one experience should inform the next experience.
And, you know, there was someone in my family who one of their dogs attacked one of their other dogs to the point of the dog, the other dog, the smaller dog’s back was broken, and the dog needed to be put down. And my family member said, well, the last time she attacked him, it wasn't that bad. I thought, you know, how, how could there have possibly been a second? Like how could there possibly have been the second time, if you knew that there was a possibility this could happen?
Well, thank you so much for your time. I've learned a lot. Maybe we can speak again at some point, but I appreciate you walking me through it.
Brian:
Yeah. I appreciate you having me on, and it's been a great conversation. I would just say if anyone out there has been an unfortunate victim of an attack, don't suffer in silence. There are advocates, lawyers, and other types out there that can help you. So don't feel like a helpless victim in anything, but especially a situation where you've been attacked by a dog.
Annie:
And if someone's an expert on TV, they might not actually be an expert, that’s another takeaway. [Laughs]
Brian:
TV is oftentimes make believe, that's a general truth that I think more people could start truly believing. I think that's fair.
Annie:
Or, or believe what you see on South Park.
Brian:
Yeah. That episode was truly insightful. It's my number one source for the pressing important issues of today.
Annie:
[laughs] I really appreciate your time.
Brian:
Excellent. Thank you so much.
[music and outro]
