06 MayEpisode 204 | “We don’t expect this sort of robotic, one way dictatorship in other relationships…” Meet Dogminded’s Jenny Efimova, KPA CTP
Before she became a dog trainer, Jenny Efimova was working human trauma survivors for a living. Her job involved being empathetic and meeting people where they were. It wasn't immediately obvious to her that a lot of the lessons she'd learned at work could be applied to someone in her home who was suffering: Her dog. Her young rescue, Larkin, was increasingly afraid to go out on walks in her neighborhood. The first professionals she worked with told her she was the issue: She wasn't “confident” enough with her puppy, and he thought he was the boss. It didn't feel right to her, and the suggested methods didn't work. In fact, they felt like they were making matters worse. Then she started working with a trainer who explained how to use positive reinforcement in training, and it was a behavioral game changer for her and her dog Larkin. This led her to become a certified dog trainer herself, through the Karen Pryor Academy. Today she trains online and in Brookline, MA.
Annie and Jenny discuss the challenges that come with cultural expectations of how both dogs and dog owners should behave. They confront the popular idea that if you are not a stern leader with your dog, you are spoiling them, and consider whether there has been any cultural shift in changing the conversation about what it means to be a compassionate dog owner. They also discuss how interspecies relationships and examining our expectations of our pets can help us learn to be more humane and compassionate in general.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Learn more about Jenny at https://www.dogminded.training/
Follow Jenny on Instagram: @dogminded
Follow School For The Dogs @schoolforthedogs
Transcript:
Jenny Efimova:
We don't expect this sort of robotic one way dictatorship in other relationships, but with dogs, for some reason, there's this expectation that there are these behavioral outputs, and that they have to do everything we say, and they have to behave in certain ways. And that any behavior that is inconvenient or troublesome for us has to be eliminated. And that there's not room to say, Hey, this is actually a sentient being. I'm gonna treat their behavior with the same courtesy I would treat the behavior of anybody else.
So it's this kind of bizarre dynamic which isn't actually natural for a lot of people, because all the people I work with love their dogs tremendously. We know that there's research showing that people who lose their pets often grieve those losses more than they grieve losses of people in their lives, right?
The relationships people have with their dogs and their pets are profound. We currently, I think, don't have the language and the norms in our culture to really honor that. And I think dog training as a whole falls really behind in that regard. Because what people really want is to have a joyful relationship with their dog. And at this point, I think a positive reinforcement based approach is what allows that to happen in the most compassionate way.
[music]
Annie:
Jenny I'm so eager to talk to you, happy to have you on the podcast. I have followed you on Instagram for quite a while, and I feel like I kind of know you in an Instagram way. And I'd like to know you in a real person way. But this is, this is the interim, I guess.
Jenny:
This is great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and to chat with you.
Annie:
Well, this is the like second year pandemic way, or going on third year of pandemic way, of like being at a conference then saying to somebody like, I'd really like to have lunch with you. I can say, will you come on School For The Dogs podcast? So perhaps we can just start out, you can say your name, what your business is, where you're based. And of course mention that Instagram account, cause I would love for other people to check you out.
Jenny:
Sure. My name is Jenny Efimova and I am based in Boston and I offer dog training services in person and virtual for puppies and adult dogs.
Annie:
Tell me about how you got started with dogs to begin with.
Jenny:
So I think my entry way to dog training is pretty similar to a lot of folks in that I adopted a dog who had some behavior challenges that he was struggling with and we were struggling to help him with. He was originally from Texas. He came to us when he was a puppy. He was 13 and a half weeks old. You know, he's a mutt and he had like, I think a lot of dogs coming from rural areas really struggled, adjusting to the city. So that was kind of our big challenge with him.
He was actually a really energetic and happy puppy, so it didn't show up right away. I would say initially we were kind of struggling with what I think most puppy guardians struggle with, which is just, you know mouthiness, kind of very, you know, house training, very basic things. Although I think he was kind of on the more mouthy side now that I have more context in terms of how many puppies I've met and worked with.
So he was really energetic. He was happy and, you know, we were kind of just busy figuring those things out, but he started to show reluctance walking. So, you know, could be getting startled by something and then immediately wanting to go back home, not being able to walk more than half a block. We would walk him in the morning, maybe potty him and he would potty and immediately pull back into the house.
So those things were episodic and gradual until they kind of, you know, culminated in him just not wanting to leave the house all together. When he was roughly six months old. So that was tough.
Annie:
Yeah. So what did you do?
Jenny:
Well we did a lot of not great things. We, you know, we worked with a couple of trainers. We actually worked with a total of three trainers and it was only the last person we worked with who was a positive reinforcement based clicker trainer. But we were focusing, first of all, focusing on all the wrong things. We were given advice about, you know, not letting him pull on leash. So we were focusing on that instead of increasing his comfort and outside. We were told he couldn't sniff on walks. He couldn't walk in front of us. So we made a lot of mistakes as a result.
Annie:
Now, when you say, we were told, you mean, we were told by a dog trainer who you found on Yelp or whatever who came to your house and looked at your dog and said your dog's issues are–what were the issues labeled by the other trainers?
Jenny:
So the trainer we worked with was actually highly recommended by a family friend. And this person came into our house and said, your puppy's confident and you’re not. So they took one look at my puppy and said, you know, your puppy's basically too confident. And the problem is you need to kind of get that in check.
Annie:
Okay.
Jenny:
And I remember that the trainer really tried avoiding using the terms like alpha or dominance, but basically made it very clear that we needed to be more assertive. You know, not letting him eat before us, not letting him on furniture, not letting him have free access to toys. I think the demo this person gave us with loose leash walking just basically was dragging our puppy around our dining room table.
Annie:
Mm-hmm.
Jenny:
I have actually written a blog on this, so I don't wanna revisit that too much because that visit was actually quite traumatic because this person physically hurt our puppy in front of us. But there was another person we worked with after this individual who we cut ties with that essentially echoed very similar sentiments, specifically around walking outside, right? Like if your puppy needs to sniff, that will happen later. But right now they need to learn how to walk on a loose leash. They can't ever pull you, you know, so we did a lot of this like red light, green light stopping, starting which was really frustrating for everybody involved.
But again, all of this was taking place at such a crucial time for Larkin, where he was growing less and less and less comfortable outside. And we were kind of not paying attention to that and really focusing on obedience type behaviors, which I think is really common in dog training, so it really just kind of snowballed into this place where he, I think got startled by something. I think it may have been a trash barrel falling over. It was a fairly significant event, but after that, he was basically like, I'm not going outside.
And so that was really a moment that was really challenging, I think, as anyone who has ever had a dog that you can't walk outside. And I now work with a lot of folks like that. It can feel really, really tough. I mean, you can't, in your house–you know, it's not like it's not an adult dog. It's also a puppy who needs to eliminate more frequently. So it was just very challenging.
Annie:
Can I interject just like, from my own experience having started out in a place where it never occurred to me that there was any other kind of dog training than basically what you just described, to ending up in a place that I'm in now. You know, down this path for the last 10 years or so of like, Oh, not only is there this other way of training that most people never think about, but oh my God, it applies to so many other things, right?
And also how obvious it seems now that like, you know what, like let's focus on your dog's emotions and feelings before we start making requirements about how your dog behaves in this potentially stressful thing called the streets of a major city. Like, duh, that is what we should be doing.
Just like, you know, I send my daughter to nursery school and applaud her for getting paint all over herself ‘cause I don't care really about what she's doing there at this point. Right. I just want her to like, let's work on the emotional part of her just feeling good about being there. Which we, I guess we sort of do it automatically with children, or I hope that more people do it automatically with children. ButI think we've been conditioned as a culture to not necessarily come at dogs from that same place of like, I don't know what you would call it, grace.
Jenny:
I mean, absolutely. I would say, from a personal experience to that point is I was coming from having spent over a decade of my life, working with survivors of domestic and sexual violence. That was my work. That was my career. And being really familiar with trauma informed care, and meeting people where they are, and coming from a space of empowerment. And that was what I was doing for a living and really considered myself a very compassionate, thoughtful person. And yet those values really–I was applying that set of values in areas of my life that unfortunately didn't extend to my dog.
Annie:
Well, ultimately, ultimately you did.
Jenny:
Ultimately I did. At the time, at the time it didn't. So, I see that all the time and I actually have a lot of compassion for people who are starting out in the same way that I did. just because of the amount of misinformation out there. Because then it's a very difficult thing to reckon with. I know people, I know I felt a tremendous amount of guilt and obviously I have pretty good assessment of what caused and what made the behavior worse. And you can't really have those moments back.
So I have a lot of compassion for people who are in the same place as I have been, who have done things, used training methodologies or tools with their dogs that harmed them ultimately and were able, you know, realized the harm that it caused. Because you can't really ever go back. You can work and, you know, help your dog. There's lots of progress we can make, but I can go back and look at those first days that Larkin spent with us in weeks and months. And I can't really ever go back and change that. So I just, I have a lot of compassion for people who experienced something similar.
Annie:
Hmm. It's an industry specific, perhaps, kind of guilt.
Jenny:
Yes
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah. I feel that, it's interesting. So tell me about the trainer that ultimately was able to help you, or the training.
Jenny:
Yeah, so we were also working, it was all kind of happening at the same time, but we, some of the training advice we were getting was in the puppy class and some of it was private. So the ultimate trainer who I worked with who was a clicker trainer, was working with us and I started to implement positive reinforcement based training. But I was still kind of doing other things. Like, it was messy. I was still not fully getting kind of what Larkin needed. I wasn't really giving him the stress reduction he needed. I really wasn't really communicating clearly with him yet.
And what happened was I actually started hiking with her, with our trainer. And that was one of the first steps that kind of moved me to a place where I am today, which is when I finally was able to take him on walks in the woods.
I saw the incredible difference that was making for him, just turning into a different dog, basically, and really coming to life, becoming happy and carefree. And I started to limit his walks in the neighborhood and really began to kind of give him the ability to be in places where he enjoyed being versus places I thought he needed to be in like walking around the block.
Annie:
Mm, yeah.
Jenny:
And then at the same time, I began volunteering with a rescue and accompanying folks on shelter behavior evaluations. And so I wanted to learn more about dog behavior, and I pretty much just immersed myself in learning about dogs, learning about animal behavior, learning about behavior science, learning about positive reinforcement. I started to implement more positive reinforcement more systemically with Larkin.
And then I took a Karen Pryor Academy clicker training foundations class online. And that was kind of where everything just really came together for me, where I was like, Okay, I get it. And I saw huge, huge differences in Larkin's behavior, in our relationship. And that's kind of what got me on my path to dog training, to becoming a dog trainer professionally.
Annie:
When we were talking about what to talk about. I think I was saying that I really liked a post that you did, that was about why – basically, why people have leashes that are too short.
Jenny:
Yes.
Annie:
And how that's and how that's like actually a major issue. And maybe you can, you can verbalize sort of what you said in that post in a way. But also, I just wanted to say, I thought it was so interesting because it's the kind of it seems like such a trite and simple thing, like, Oh, you know what people's problem is with walking their dogs? Their leash is too short! But it's actually such a large concept actually, ‘cause it's like, well, what are we using those leashes for?
Like what is the actual purpose of the leash? Cause I like to think ideally it should be a seatbelt, right? Like it should be there in case of emergencies, not to be yanking your dog around the street. And if you really truly are using it as a seatbelt, then yeah. It could be a really long thing.
Jenny:
Yep.
Annie:
And also a very lightweight thing, right. ‘Cause something could be thin and strong and not gonna crack in the middle.
Jenny:
Absolutely.
Annie:
But anyway, yeah. That was not exactly what you were saying in your post, but it's what it made me think of, but I'd love it if you could share what that post was about, ‘cause it certainly relates to, I think what you seemed to discover with Larkin.
Jenny:
Right. Yes. So it was kind of a reframe, right? Like what's the problem really? Is it that your dog is pulling on leash, or that your leash is too short? Because we tend to focus on the former, right. And just in general, when it comes to dog behavior, obviously we tend to focus on whatever the behavior we need to stop doing. So like I need my dog to stop pulling.
And the thing with the post, what I wanted to get across also was that that reframing for me was also a journey, both personally with Larkin, but also as a trainer. Because for a very long time, when I realized that Larkin did so much better off leash or on a long leash and out of the city, it was just a no-brainer that was what I was going to give him. Like why would I put him in a situation that causes him stress and causes me stress when I can do this other thing which is also easy for me to do, you know?
So yeah. I might take more time. I might have to drive him somewhere. I might have to plan a little bit more, but I have a dog whose behavioral health is improving. I'm enjoying these walks with him. Why wouldn't I do more of that?
At the same time, there's still a lot of pressure on people and from people, I would say, to have dogs who walk, quote unquote nicely on a six foot leash around the neighborhood. And so as a trainer, when I first started training, I felt like I had to deliver that for people. Right. Like if a client called me and said, Hey, my dog's pulling on leash. I felt like, well, okay, let me help you with that. And I would, you know, go over the pieces around like, okay, well, are we meeting your dog's needs, are they getting time to move freely? Are they getting time to move their bodies to run? Let's focus on that. But it wasn't really the center of the work. It was more like, yay, this is enrichment over here, but here, let's do leash walking, you know, loose leash walking.
So it took me a while to realize that you know, I'm kind of practicing this thing here with my dog. I know why I'm doing it. And I also watched his walking in the neighborhood improve tremendously on top of that, right? Like here I am taking him, not practicing this often, taking him to the woods, taking him on long leashes, he gets to sniff. And then when we do go out into the neighborhood, he's gotten a lot better. He's gotten more confident. He's able to eat. He's able to engage with me. And I'm not really centering that with my clients as much.
And I realized that so much of that was also my hang ups around what I thought was expected of me as a trainer. Because so many people feel like that's, you know, they have to do that. So that was another part of the purpose of the post. I kind of wanted to get across that we can't really look at leash walking divorced from meeting our dog's needs because they're so connected.
Annie:
Well you can't look at any behavior you're training without looking at all the needs. And it's such an interesting point of also thinking about what our expectations are sort of as a culture, when it comes to dogs, and questioning those expectations.
I've talked on this podcast before about this guy in my neighborhood who has an Airedale that he always walks on like a super tight leash. Like the, the dog's neck is six inches from his hip bone at all times. And I spoke to him once about it and he said something along the lines of, you know, walking outside is a very specific thing. It needs to be done in a very specific way. This is not playtime or enjoyment time. This is walking time.
And of course I think there are a lot of people who have this sort of fixed idea of what a dog on a leash should look like. Thanks to some Norman Rockwell type idea of these things that is not actually addressing what is right for the dog, and also not necessarily addressing, like you said, the bigger picture of like the fact that you can't divorce that from the rest of the dog's life, it is part of your dog's life.
Jenny:
Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, that goes for any behavior. Absolutely. But I do think we're, especially, there's a special focus on the walking piece. And I've actually heard that a lot, and I've heard that message around you know, walking is not for sniffing, walking is for exercise, or, you know, the idea that it's not for enjoyment.
And it's kind of like, well, what's for enjoyment then? Like, I mean, dogs are completely under our control. They get these brief moments of, especially dogs living in cities, get these brief moments where they get to go outside and we completely control when, where, and under what conditions that happens. It's such an odd thing, right. To feel like, well, they don't get to enjoy it. And it also goes completely against what's appropriate for them as a species.
Yeah. It's just a weird thing that gets perpetuated. And I hear a lot of trainers, unfortunately, perpetuate it quite a bit.
Annie:
It also relates to our notion that they have to go outside, when I think that there are a lot of – maybe we're not so far away from a culture that's more widely accepting of the idea of indoor dog bathrooms. I think [laughs], it's happening based on products that I see that are out there. Or you know, at least in crowded urban areas, it's not such a crazy thing.
My dog is very sensitive, and to have gotten her – when we first got her, to have gotten her outside enough times on a leash on the New York City streets, to get her to reliably pee and poop on the sidewalk and only on the sidewalk? I mean, I'm a dog trainer. I know how I could do that, but I don't know. I mean, I certainly knew I didn't have the time to acclimate her to being outside enough to make it worthwhile, to put in. It's like a cost benefit situation.
And like, why would I, even if I did, I don't know if that would be the right thing for her. I think the right thing was to give her an alternate place to go, even if that meant in our apartment and then working her up, shaping her to being outside.
When you were talking about working with the two trainers you were working with before you started sort of down the road of clicker training, that's what I kept thinking was about shaping. Another thing that now seems so obvious is that behavior should be shaped, ideally. You know, sometimes that's easier said than done, but now when you describe a situation like you were describing it seems like a shaping mistake.
Jenny:
Oh yeah.
Annie:
Not getting the dogs used to walking inside before getting them – or not even getting the dogs used to being outside before raising the criteria, you have to be outside and you have to wear a leash and you have to wear a collar – in this exact area. Too many criteria.
Jenny:
Yeah. Too much, too soon, and just a completely wrong focus. And I mean, we absolutely flooded Larkin, and that has really profound, long term impacts.
Annie:
Yeah.
Jenny:
And that's the thing that, you know, we don't sometimes get to go back and fix it because there's lots of progress I made with him, but there's still areas where he's not going to wanna walk. So
Annie:
Can you describe what flooding is to someone who does not know that term?
Jenny:
Sure. So flooding, I guess in lay person's terms, is exposing an individual to a fear inducing stimulus kind of beyond their ability to cope, without an ability to escape.
Annie:
Mm-hmm. You know what, you know, what it always makes – what I think of flooding. Have you ever seen A Clockwork Orange?
Jenny:
I have not, believe it or not.
Annie:
All right. You must go watch A Clockwork Orange, which is the, Because it's like a dog training nightmare movie, about people. It's a pretty crazy movie, but there's this part in it where they basically like sew this guy's eyes open and make him watch – the story is basically, they're trying to punish this sociopath criminal with the punishment being that he has to watch scenes of extreme violence over and over and over and over.
Jenny:
Oh God. Okay. Yeah.
Annie:
The twist though, not to – spoiler alert! The twist is they play Beethoven music while they're showing him these gruesome videos one after another. And through the magic of classical conditioning–
Jenny:
Yeah, I was gonna say–
Annie:
The music is what ends up getting him to go bonkers.
Jenny:
Wow. Okay.
Annie:
Sorry. That's what I think of when flooding though, is the idea of someone's eyes being toothpicked open.
Jenny:
Yes. And we do that with puppies a lot. And dogs in general, I think flooding is fairly common. Just the idea of like, they should get used to it or they will get used to it approach is flooding, right? Like, when an animal doesn't have an opportunity to opt out or move away, and when they're close to something that they can't handle. I think that happens inadvertently also, by the way, I mean, like, not that we were planning on it, but even in small ways it happens inadvertently, very often. Yeah.
Annie:
Of course. Well, I mean, isn't so much dog training like that? I mean, that's why the idea of pure positive doesn't exist because you can't – your dog is gonna be learning from things, even when you're not thinking that you're in the classroom.
Jenny:
They're always learning. Exactly.
Annie:
Wow. So you, it's so interesting that you went from this one career to another where it sounds like there was so much overlap that you did not see at the get go. Would you put it that way?
Jenny:
Yes. And also a lot of the work I used to do involved advocacy work. So I did a lot of education and outreach. And I feel like that also intersects with what I do now, because when we are teachers, when we're teaching, when using positive reinforcement based training, and I know that certainly not every trainer wants to see themselves that way or chooses to, which is of course perfectly fine, but I do find that advocating for positive reinforcement based approach and, you know, educating more people about it is just as much of the work as working with dogs and people, for me.
Annie:
Well, and you, you do a really great job, I think, on Instagram helping people understand why it's so important. Do you feel like you're seeing things change?
Jenny:
I do think things are changing. It's hard sometimes because we exist in an unregulated industry where there's so much bad stuff and some of that bad stuff has a huge space. And in an online, on social media and online that sometimes it can feel like there's no end to it. But I do think that more and more people are open to positive reinforcement.
And I actually believe that for a lot of people, there is a relief that comes with realizing that they don't actually have to have this extremely controlled militant kind of relationship with their dogs. Like a lot of people I work with and a lot of people I talk to online, who message me, have either experienced trainers and felt uncomfortable with the training approach or feel relieved that they don't have to make their dog heel.
I know I actually felt relief. I know my partner felt a lot of relief. He was like, this sucks. Like, why do I have to do this? This isn't fun. So people feel, I think people bring dogs into their homes because they wanna have a relationship with an animal of another species with a dog, and they wanna love them. And they wanna have the joy that comes from that connection. They wanna cuddle their dog on the couch. They don't wanna feel bad because their dog sleeps in their bed. They like when their dog jumps up on them to say hi, they don't care. They may share their food with their dogs. And a lot of dog training, sort of traditional punitive sort of mind, dog training, shames people for that.
Annie:
Oh yeah.
Jenny:
And there is a lot of – you know, people are like, ‘Well, my dog sleeps with me. I know that's not okay.’ I hear that all the time. The messages they're getting is it's their fault. If their dog's misbehaving, it's their fault. They're not giving the dog enough structure. They're not setting firm boundaries. So there's a lot of shame and blame that goes along with that.
Annie:
They're ‘letting the dog think the dog is boss.’
Jenny:
That's right. Yes. So there's a lot of that happening and it doesn't feel good. It just, it doesn't feel good. And there is, I believe that a lot of positive reinforcement based approach really opens the door for people to really enjoy their dogs and gives them permission to like, yes, you can have fun with your dog.
Annie:
Yeah. And saying, you know what, also your dog can be your hobby. Your dog is not a piece of furniture or a robot that needs to behave in a specific way and shouldn't be a bother and as lucky for whatever it can get, as far as scraps go of your life, but your dog can be the main event.
Jenny:
Yep.
Annie:
And that doesn't need to be something that's silly. It could be something that's beautiful because it's, you devoting your time, energy, money, effort towards another living being, which, you know, someone else could choose to be putting that towards their motorcycle. But you're getting to see the enjoyment of another being enjoying life. What's so beautiful about positive reinforcement dog training is that it's fun if you're doing it right. It should be fun for you, and it should be fun for the dog.
Jenny:
Exactly.
Annie:
That's the goal. And if everybody is operating in a way of like, Hey, this is a fun, cool thing to do, it's a lot more – it's a feedback loop that feels good. And some people can get that feedback loop from, like I was saying, from cars or in other inanimate objects that they devote their time and resources towards, but we’ve done with another animal. Go ahead. Sorry.
Jenny:
Right. No, no. Well, that's the thing, kind of going back to, you know, things that are intuitive versus not intuitive for us, with dogs. There are ways in which we conduct our relationships, whatever those relationships might be with other human animals that, you know, where we communicate. It's a reciprocal communication, you know, we don't expect – you know, if I'm in a room, if my partner's in a different room and I call his name, I don't expect him to show up within, in under a second. He can say one second, you know, I'll be right there.
We don't expect this sort of robotic one way dictatorship in other relationships, but with dogs, for some reason, there's this expectation that there are these behavioral outputs, and that they have to do everything we say, and they have to behave in certain ways. And that any behavior that is inconvenient or troublesome for us has to be eliminated. And that there's not room to say, Hey, this is actually a sentient being. I'm gonna treat their behavior with the same courtesy I would treat the behavior of anybody else.
So it's this kind of bizarre dynamic which isn't actually natural for a lot of people, because all the people I work with love their dogs tremendously. We know that there's research showing that people who lose their pets often grieve those losses more than they grieve losses of people in their lives, right?
The relationships people have with their dogs and their pets are profound. We currently, I think, don't have the language and the norms in our culture to really honor that. And I think dog training as a whole falls really behind in that regard. Because what people really want is to have a joyful relationship with their dog. And at this point, I think a positive reinforcement based approach is what allows that to happen in the most compassionate way.
Annie:
That's so well said, Jenny, really. I think about how there are so many animals that have symbiotic relationships, friendships. I mean, forget just animals, but fungi, right? And plants. We think of ourselves as weak if we need or enjoy the affection of dogs as a culture. Somehow it's still considered kind of…Last week on the podcast, I read from Mary Poppins, a chapter in that book about this dog. And it was written in the 1930s, but the dog lover is this caricature of an overbearing, old, lonely woman who treats her dog like a child and spoils him. And I feel like that's sort of one stereotype our culture has of dog ownership.
And another stereotype is, or stereotypes is maybe the wrong word, but coupled somehow with this idea of, like, there's a right way for a dog to behave, and there's a right way to be like a non-indulgent, no nonsense dog owner. I don't know. It's like, we all need like a mental cleansing. For me, it's looking at accounts like yours though, where I feel like, oh, you know, I think there's more and more people out there who are really good at helping sort of clear away the static and help people think about what what their individual dog needs and not just impose these sort of cultural standards that are somewhat arbitrary. Do you know what I mean?
Jenny:
Yes. I mean the spoiling piece, I mean, I don't have children, human children, but I think there's also a lot around that as well. This idea that showing compassion, showing kindness, showing understanding, not reaching for punishment is spoiling. There's like that part of treating another living being with – and I'm sure there's probably, you know, spoil is like a label, right? We all have a different definition of spoiling. But I think that's a big kind of shaming tactic that gets lobbed at people who choose to treat their dogs with kindness.
Annie:
Right. So it's like, there's almost this caricature of like, Oh, if I'm not the dominant dog owner with a dog who's heeling perfectly by my side, am I therefore then going to be the indulgent dog owner treating their dog like it's a miniature – a furry human.
Jenny:
Yeah. A little baby in fur. Yeah.
Annie:
Yeah. Well, I am a parent and I feel like it informs completely the way that I – I mean, being a dog trainer completely informs the way that I parent.
Jenny:
There are definitely parallels, I have to say. I actually follow a lot of positive parenting accounts, because there's so many parallels and it's interesting for me. Just because from the standpoint of behavior, we all learn the same way. It would make sense that children would benefit from positive reinforcement and the same processes would apply. Right?
Annie:
Yeah.
Jenny:
You know, the same impacts of punishment, I mean, of course. Yeah, so we also struggle with that with kids as well.
Annie:
Yeah. And, and maybe an upside of many people getting dogs before they have kids is figuring that out before you're figuring it out with a kid.
Jenny:
I actually had, I had a few clients who had expressed that the tools they have gained working with their dog using a positive reinforcement based approach has changed how they parent. And in one case, my clients were new parents. And so it informed how they were parenting, which I think is really beautiful.
It really is this sort of – there's this quote by Suzanne Clothier that I'm not going to quote correctly, but part of it says that a life lived in a relationship with an animal allows us to become both more fully human and more humane. And I thought that's such a beautiful thing, right? Just that this connection with an animal of another species gives us this opportunity to expand our circle of compassion and actually become more humane in other areas of our lives. If we take that opportunity, right. If we do, not everyone does.
But it is a profound opportunity that could really extend to how you treat your children, how you treat others. I know for me, I've become a lot more aware of how I'm responding to people around me and centering more positive reinforcement and it's improved my life immensely. So.
Annie:
Yeah, it is profound. And I think it's also – positive reinforcement, like we kind of use that as a shortcut for referring to something even larger than that, which is kind of like, we've been talking about questioning expectations, right? Questioning how we can arrange a situation, an environment, space, time, energy. Energy as in physical exertion. Like what can we do to set a stage for success and how can we set criteria that can be met and then how can we work at shaping those behaviors?
Jenny:
Yes. And how do we see, how do we reframe how we see mistakes? And what is a mistake? And how do we reframe when things happen that don't go our way. There are lots of, kind of in our culture, I mean, there's lots of different toxic elements around pushing yourself, and if you just work hard enough, and these – a lot of self blame, internalizing, blaming ourselves. I think when we become – you know, another positive is when we become kinder and gentler to others, when we start to see behavior differently, we may also become a little kinder to ourselves. We might set ourselves up for success a little more, right? Set criteria better for ourselves. We might be able to look back at something that didn't go well and not feel so much blame or shame.
Annie:
But you know what's nice about seeing the world in this kind of way, I mean, call it religion if you will [laughs]. This way of seeing the world. I mean, which by the way, I think gets misunderstood a lot as like, oh, well you mean just rewarding things that you like and seeing the bright side of things, right? Like people think, Oh, you use positive reinforcement in your life. You just might go around with a shit-eating grin all the time and give people candies when they're nice. Like, well, no, it's, it's more complicated than that. It's more nuanced than that.
It's interesting though, that it comes from something as – you know, here, you and I have had our way of the world shifted thanks to the fact that we had to get our dog to pee or poop outside.
[laughing]
Jenny:
Yes. Yes. Well, kind of going back to your question about, do I see things changing? One thing that I see that's really beautiful is that you know, there is a community of folks online and in other places, obviously but I'll just give Instagram as an example where people who are dog guardians or maybe like their hobby trainers or other trainers who have come to positive reinforcement and it transformed their lives so much. They wanna shout it out from the rooftops.
That was kind of my piece, like when I was deciding how did I wanna show up in an online space is I talk about positive reinforcement so much because I genuinely love it and believe in it. And I think so many people feel the same way because when you really see the difference, especially if you're crossing over, it's so profound and it really changes your life and your relationship with your dog and your dog' life, that people are thrilled. They're excited. And I think that's this, that's a beautiful thing. And I love seeing that. It feels very contagious in a very good way, and I'm never not excited to talk to someone about it.
And I'm still [inaudible] where my dog has come to and what our relationship is like and how much I enjoy him, how much I enjoy every moment with him. And it doesn't mean they're always perfect, or we don't have challenges, but just that fundamental emotion that is underneath all my interactions with him is joyful. And I think about that every day. So, yeah, go ahead.
Annie:
What I was gonna say before is, this way into looking at the world, which you said can be so helpful to dealing with ourselves and our own ways of treating ourselves and existing in the world with ourselves. I feel like so much of psychotherapy though, is kind of like inward facing, like, looking into your own brain in order to fix yourself.
Where I feel like this approach of dog training, of good dog training, positive reinforcement based dog training really is sort of thinking about how our actions can affect others. In the case of being a dog trainer, how our actions can affect our clients, how our actions can affect our dogs. For me, that's led to, you know, how can my actions affect my kids, my employees. And certainly it does it help my own mental state. Yes. But it does it from a sort of pleasantly action-step, action sort of oriented way.
Jenny:
Yes, absolutely.
Annie:
Well, Jenny, I've so enjoyed talking to you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for all that you do on Instagram. We didn't really get to talk about the training that you've been doing with clients online, which maybe could be a conversation for another day. Cause I feel like I could probably talk to you for a long time. But before we part, I wanted to ask you what you would recommend to someone who is maybe listening and maybe thinking about becoming a dog trainer themselves, a professional dog trainer. Someone who's caught the bug that you and I caught, or someone who has seen success maybe with their dogs and wanna spread the word. What would you say would be a good first step? Would it be a book or a practice or something?
Jenny:
Oh, good question. I think books are great. I feel like that was where I started. Online classes, there's lots of places that offer online classes that range certainly in how comprehensive they are and in price. That's a good option for online learning. If somebody wants to become a trainer, I think assisting or shadowing another trainer is a really, really helpful step. Because there's definitely a difference between learning about behavior and even working with your own dog to then working with other dogs.
Before, I would say someone would pursue a formal certification program. I chose a program that included an education component. So I went through Karen Pryor Academy, which included going through an education program and then being certified. I would say assisting a trainer or shadowing a trainer is really, really helpful because there is a difference between learning about behavior, learning about dogs and working with your dog to then working with other people's dogs, right? And other people. So being able to handle different dogs, work with different dogs, assist a trainer.
I think, actually, volunteering in a shelter, volunteering with a rescue is really helpful because you are then seeing dogs in many cases that have been surrendered. You're going to see lots of different behaviors. And that's really, really helpful too. And then deciding, you know, if you wanted to pursue it formally to go for a really good reputable program, if you can there's lots of options there.
[music]
Annie:
You can learn more about Jenny at Dogminded, and if you are on Instagram, you should absolutely follow her account @dogminded. Her posts are full of so much useful information. Her content is wise and soulful and clear.
If you like this podcast make sure to rate, review and subscribe. Of course you can also follow us on Instagram @schoolforthedogs. We do a special giveaway there every Friday. Today, we are doing a giveaway of a Fitpaws Canine Fit Bone Dog Training Balance Platform. Go check it out.
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