17 JunEpisode 210 | Meet Leeyah Wiseman SFTD-CPT, School For The Dogs’ “Reels” maven and recent Professional Course graduate
Leeyah Wiseman is a recent graduate of School For The Dogs Professional Course. If you follow us on TikTok or Instagram, you probably know her from the videos she does for SFTD. While she never thought of herself as a "dog person," she ended up adopting a puppy, George, and falling in love with him. But then she realized she had an issue on her hands: Separation anxiety. Her work figuring out how to deal with this issue in a way that felt right led her to decide to become a dog trainer. Annie and Leeyah discuss how she worked with her dog to improve his anxiety, what she got out of the Professional Course, and popular notions of what it means to "be" positive.
Learn more about the Professional Course here. Next cohort starts in late August!
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Mentioned in this episode:
Find Leeyah Wiseman on Instagram @galdogtraining and @schoolforthedogs!
School For The Dogs Professional Course
Treating Separation Anxiety in Dogs Paperback by Malena Demartini-Price
Separation Anxiety in Dogs: Next Generation Treatment Protocols and Practices by Malena DeMartini-Price
Related episodes:
Episode 59 | Separation Anxiety Expert Malena DeMartini on Helping Dogs Learn To Be Alone
Transcript:
Leeyah:
I feel like just being – it felt like we were just there, and we were able to see how things played out in real life when tough training questions come up. When random training questions come up. When things happen like a dog peeing on the floor in the middle of a session. Or a dog needs a different type of assignment because they're struggling with something. And, you know, how to kind of answer questions that are tough, how to move training sessions along in a real way. ‘Cause in the course we kind of had a module on that as well. And then seeing it actually, especially seeing the trainers that do it the same way in the course, because it's like the School For The Dogs' method. It was kind of like a whole big picture of everything.
[music]
Annie:
If you follow us on Instagram, TikTok, then you have seen Leeyah Wiseman who is a recent graduate of School For The Dogs’ Professional Course. You are about to get to know her a little bit more. You can learn more about the Professional Course at schoolforthedogs.com/professionalcourse22.
I am thrilled to have you on the podcast yet again. Maybe you can just introduce yourself.
Leeyah:
My name is Leeyah Wiseman and I took the 2021 professional course, and I also do social media for School For The Dogs. So I do a lot of the coordination for the Instagram page and some talks and things like that.
Annie:
Which are really awesome and fun. And I love how you just go for it.
Leeyah:
Yeah. You gotta, you really have to. I mean, it's kind of like, if you don't then you're not gonna really make good content. Nobody's gonna watch something that you're not like being authentic in.
Annie:
Yeah. And you just gotta put yourself out there. I think it's a lesson about so many things. And some people really can't do it and when you do do it, you're accepting risk, right?
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
And you're accepting, you're opening yourself up to the possibility of failure and criticism, which can be no small thing. Right?
Leeyah:
Yeah. I'm surprised by the amount of positive feedback that I get and have gotten for, you know, TikToks and videos and things. ‘Cause there's just, there's not a lot of like, oh you're ugly or you're stupid. Sometimes, sometimes and then I'm the face of it. But most of the time it's actually, like for example, somebody at this local pet store follows us on TikTok and on Instagram too. And I went in there yesterday and they're like, oh, we follow School For The Dogs. And the videos are so helpful for our relationship with our dog.
And I was like, this is just, I don't know, this is like, this is it right here. This is the feeling of like why it's all worth it. And so it's cool to reach people in this way, where I feel like it's very one-sided, but it's not.
Annie:
You know, as you're saying that I'm thinking like this conversation feels like that to me because I know that you got to School For The Dogs through the podcast, and that feels like such a one way thing so much of the time, me sitting in my neighbor's apartment by myself [laughs]. And feeling like what's the point of making myself vulnerable and putting this stuff out there, and saying what I think, and not airbrushing everything, and giving it, you know, a lot more time and energy than one would imagine.
And the payoff is that like, I got someone like you to see this amazing, I mean, career, but like this new kind of world where you're now going and helping other people, like it's just so gratifying to me. And the fact that you can do that by talking to people who you don't even know and who you don't know are listening, or by appearing in like a two inch tall video on the phone of the guy at the pet store, you know? It's really, it's a really cool thing about the world. But let's pat ourselves on the back for being the darers and the doers who are putting ourselves out there, even though it can be really scary.
Leeyah:
Yeah. And I think that was like one of the biggest things about wanting to take the professional course from School For The Dogs was because I knew so much about your methodology or values, your points of view. And like, it wasn't just, I don't know. I was able to really get a feel of what you were like as the owner, what a lot of your trainers were like, because you've interviewed them on the podcast. And I don't know. It just made me feel like I connected with you and knew the kind of people that I was going to be learning from, which was really nice.
And I feel like now I'm so grateful that I did make that choice, because I feel like the professional course is a lot more than some of the other courses that I looked at because of like this, the –
Annie:
It's a lifestyle.
Leeyah:
Yeah, it totally is! And like, because of the fact that also you’re a school, a facility, have different trainers, like a good amount of trainers. And I think also the fact that they were really open and willing to teach and be observed, and clients were willing to be observed, that was pretty invaluable.
Annie:
Yeah. I think just going back to what you were saying before, I think there are a lot of good programs now actually, for people wanting to become dog trainers online. From the beginning, what made us want to offer the professional course was – well, it actually started when Anna Ostroff was coming to us as a client and was interested in, I think I talked to her about this on the episode, she was interested in doing the Karen Pryor Academy. And she wanted me to write her a letter of recommendation. And I was like, I will absolutely do that. Like, that's a great idea.
And she was actually the third client who had come through, who was like, I'm really into this, this is what I wanna do. I'm gonna do KPA. But she was the third one. And I was like, you know what? You could go do KPA and, and it'll be great, but we could also develop a similar curriculum, but that where you could also be working with dogs here, which, KPA, you have to work with your own dog only. I mean, I guess you could work with other dogs, but they don't really facilitate that.
And so when we – this last round was our first fully virtual version of the professional course, and I worried a little bit about losing that element of it, although I think this next round, we're gonna figure out ways to let people have some more hands-on time, if at least if they're local, or in maybe, maybe in certain pockets of the country.
But more than that, what you're saying makes me feel like maybe what we have that some of the other programs don't have is a very understandable and relatable brand. Whereas a lot of the other programs don't have, like – I don't know. I mean, the notion of what a brand is, has always been kind of interesting to me. And we didn't set out to create a brand, but I think it has to do with sort of a general feeling about, for instance, like when we opened our space, it was after Kate and I had worked for several months at a dog daycare. And I know we both felt like this needs to feel like a place where people wanna be. Cause it's like, people are our customers. Not just the dogs.
And like, how can we think about what makes sense to us and what feels good to us and like how we can communicate that in a way that's not overly pedantic, but that's kind of fun. And I feel like because we've approached it from that direction organically, rather than being like, we're gonna be an organization that trains dog trainers, maybe we've managed to somehow make up for the fact that like our professional course students are no longer coming to the actual studio. ‘Cause like you said, there are these other ways of connecting.
Leeyah:
Totally. Yeah.
Annie:
So tell me about how you even thought to look up a dog training podcast to begin with. I know from talking to you a little bit before that you were not really ever – you're not like ‘I always loved dogs since my childhood!’
Leeyah:
No.
Annie:
Like a million other dog professionals out there.
Leeyah:
Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of interesting. I thought I loved dogs. I didn't really love dogs. I liked the idea of dogs. And so–
Annie:
You didn't have them in your house growing up then?
Leeyah:
No, I actually, no. I mean, I adopted a boxer puppy. I convinced my dad to buy me a boxer puppy from Craigslist actually. And brought it home and named it Bella. And then the next day, the landlord called and was like, you can't have a puppy. And like, my dad should have really checked on this. So then I found a neighbor, ‘cause I lived in this really nice town. And so one of my neighbors had a boxer and so I was like, could you take her? And they did. And they just took her on as their own, and they gave her this amazing life. So that was my only experience with the dog. So I was kind of traumatic actually thinking about it, like to get a puppy and then name it and love it. And then immediately be like…
Annie:
Aw, how old were you again?
Leeyah:
Like 10.
Annie:
Aw.
Leeyah:
So that was the only experience I ever had with a dog. And then you know, got George, rescued him for my fiance, ‘cause like I wasn't a dog person. I genuinely really didn't like dogs on the bed. Like I have really bad OCD. So, you know, actually now it's kind of crazy that I like to let George put his butt on my pillow every single night, but that’s just like what happens when you fall in love with a dog.
Annie:
That's, that's gonna be the pull quote right there.
Leeyah:
And so yeah, I mean, it really was just like, I don't know what it was. I just got this overwhelming motherly pull after I brought him home and it was like, nothing else mattered in the world.
Annie:
Now, because your boyfriend had a – or your fiance, sorry, had a – I always think that's a funny word. ‘My fiance, my fiance.’
Leeyah:
I hate it. Hate the word.
Annie:
But you guys had a dog before George, right?
Leeyah:
Yeah. We had this, this boxer, her name was Maddie.
Annie:
And did you train Maddie at all or were you into Maddie?
Leeyah:
No. I mean, not really. Like thinking and saying that now it's like so sad because there was this whole relationship that she would've totally loved to have with me. And I just was like, it's a dog. Like I didn't really even think twice about her. Like I pet her and cuddle with her and take pictures with her. But there was just no realizing that there was all of these emotions, like I was raised like it's just a dog. So it was just so crazy that like, it switched so quickly when I got George.
Annie:
What does that mean to you? ‘It's just a dog.’ Like, how would you describe that?
Leeyah:
Like, ‘it's just a dog,’ to me, like my dad is very old fashioned and says silly, stupid things like that to simplify something or make him make it feel like it's not important. I don't know.
Annie:
Well, I know when I was talking to my friend Meredith on an episode a few months ago, she was talking about how her dad used to say that to her, too. ‘It's just a dog.’ But I think it's like a, I think it speaks to a general way of this sort of almost, I wanna say macho, but I don't think it's necessarily male way of putting down dog ownership as if it's below, I don't know. It's something that's like below car ownership.
Leeyah:
Yeah. Yeah.
Annie:
Like giving over emotion to this thing that is kind of a low grade hobby is a little pathetic.
Leeyah:
Yeah. Yeah. It totally does. Like, that's the vibe that you get. Like it's not a kid or something.
Annie:
So anyway, you got George, you went to the vet.
Leeyah:
Yes. And I think the vet was like, oh, he's really scared and fearful, and was terrified of the dogs who are also in here, do you want a few recommendations? And I was like, yeah. And so they recommended The Puppy Start Right Book and School For The Dogs podcast. And I remember downloading The Puppy Start Right Book. And it was like, the text was wrong. Like in iBook. It was just like, you couldn't read it very well. So I was like moving on, School For The Dogs podcast. Like, and I started –
Annie:
You know, what's funny is I have that book. It's blue with like a dog with a life jacket on the cover. I think I've looked through it. I think it's great content. But one of the things that keeps me from reading it is like, my copy is printed really badly. It's like a similar problem.
Leeyah:
I think I've read the reviews on the book, on ibooks. It says that.
Annie:
It says that too. It's like the pages like bleed onto each other. God, it's so unfortunate. Cause it's like, people are missing this good information because of book publishing problems.
Leeyah:
That is a big problem with the social media thing, is trying to make the information not missable by making it too, like, you know, Ugh. It's so hard.
Annie:
By making it too what?
Leeyah:
By making it too much, I don't know, making it not interesting enough, not scroll stopping worthy enough.
Annie:
Right. But this is like the opposite problem. Like I think their problem is it's actually like printed poorly. Isn't that what you're saying? Like the iBook was actually like –
Leeyah:
Yeah. Yeah. But if the text is kind of like wonky in a Reel, like I'm not gonna read it, I'm just gonna scroll. Cause it's not easy to read, so.
Annie:
Right, right. I see what you're saying. Yeah.
Leeyah:
So I literally, I don't remember what it was, one of the first seasons, and it must have been like a house training one, ‘cause George was like two months old and apparently super fearful. And also I had Maddie, and Maddie was like not loving George and I didn't really know what to do. And so I think this just whole general idea of not saying no to either one of them was like, ‘cause at first that's what Jake and I were doing. Like they'd run up to each other and Maddie would growl. And so George would say no to Maddie, and I would say no to George, and like we'd pull 'em apart and like that wasn't doing anything.
And so, one of the first season, one of the first episodes you were like saying something about, I mean maybe it was just tossed in really like casually, but something about not needing the word no, or something like that. Or alternatives that are more effective. And it was really like a lightbulb went off. And then, there's some really good episodes in the first season that are just like, I literally learned how to do a lot of things with George because of just those podcast episodes, like the house training, and like I don't remember, what are a few other ones. I listened to all of them when I was driving to work at my old job, cause I had this long commute.
And then that was like, some of the episodes also made me wanna become a dog trainer. I remember I was like, this is like amazing. I don't know. You interviewed other dog trainers about their journeys to becoming dog trainers. And I was like, this is what I wanna do.
Annie:
And so you started training with George, and what happened to Maddie then? I guess Maddie died.
Leeyah:
Yeah. Maddie died.
Annie:
Aww.
Leeyah:
So George was like three and a half months old. And Maddie – that was like in retrospect, not a good reason to get a puppy. At all. Because it was like, look at how it turned out. It was for Jake to replace Maddie, because it was gonna be really sad because she had cancer and had like two months left to live. And we didn't even take into consideration George into that equation like when we got him, because he was attached to Maddie for his first two months of his life, and then Maddie died. And it was pretty traumatic.
Annie:
And also thinking about, I mean, I don't really know anything about the situation, but if you have a dog who's old and sick, she might not be keen on having this big puppy.
Leeyah:
A hundred percent. So it was a completely human, selfish, human based reason to get him, not taking into consideration either of the dogs. So I mean, looking back now, like I can totally admit that, and I didn't know better. But yeah, so Maddie died when George was like two months old, and we had to go take her to be put down ‘cause she had a really horrible seizure. I'm sorry, this is getting really depressing. And then like George had to come home to, you know, not having his sister there who was always there.
And this was just about the time where his separation anxiety got really bad. And we noticed that like every time we left him without her, there would be blood on the floor or something that he was destroying, like trying to get out of the kennel or the playpen. So yeah, so that was just not – like I wouldn't recommend doing that.
Annie:
Well, I wanna hear more about his separation anxiety, but well actually I guess let's start there. Talk to me about what it was like and how you dealt with it.
Leeyah:
Well, I worked with a trainer for puppy school because after Maddie died, George was really reactive to other dogs. I think it was frustration reactivity. I'm not really sure. Just like frustrated, really couldn't settle around other dogs. So I signed him up for puppy kindergarten and then started working privately with one of the trainers there who was certified from Animal Behavior College. And so she kind of suggested just crate training him and not really worrying about it. So I didn't really worry about it for a while.
And then I got a camera and then I set up the camera and left and watched the camera, and I had gone to work. And I had a far commute. And so I was at work and he was going off completely, wouldn't stop howling and barking. And it was the most horrible feeling in the entire world. So I actually left work and was driving home with the camera up on my passenger seat, like just listening to him the whole drive home howling.
Annie:
So how long had that been going on, you think, before you started setting up the camera?
Leeyah:
Well, probably a few weeks because, I mean, I wasn't – like now I would've been like, oh, this is a problem. I was probably like, okay, that's not great.
Annie:
So he was like crying when you were leaving and you just hoped he would chill out.
Leeyah:
Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, and I got the advice obviously from lots of different people, like family members. I remember my mother-in-law was like, you have to leave him to cry it out. If you don't, that is what's going to cause the separation anxiety to become worse. And I was so torn because I felt like that was the wrong thing to do. But even my trainer didn't really have any advice other than use a food toy, leave him in his crate. And just like, honestly, she literally said don't watch the camera. And I was like, now thinking back on it, I'm just like, I would, Hmm. I would never say that.
Annie:
And she, you said she was a graduate of the ABC program?
Leeyah:
It's yeah, Animal Behavior College. So.
Annie:
I actually don't know anyone who's done the Animal Behavior College program, I don't think. And I probably should know more about it than I do, but all I can tell you is that when I first had the idea, like maybe I could become a dog trainer, I think I subscribed to their list or something and they were all over me. Oh my God. They were like sending me like binders in the mail. I mean, this was like, I don't know, 15 years ago or something now. And, but like calling me all the time, just like blowing up my email. And I was like, they really want students. [laughs] And it actually dissuaded me from the program because I felt like they were too eager to have me.
Leeyah:
Well, I mean, the people, the trainers that I do know who have gone to ABC have all told me and like, just from my experience with her and then other trainers who have told me about the program that they've taken is like, it's not, it wasn't enough. And there wasn't anything about separation anxiety other than, I guess what she said, or like leave a food toy or something.
Annie:
Yeah. I actually don't even remember if the Karen Pryor Academy went into separation anxiety, but what's interesting is it's becoming more and more a specialty, and I think that's pretty exciting. Anyway, so how did you, how did you change the path you were on with George?
Leeyah:
Well, it just so happened that this puppy kindergarten, so this training place in Encinitas in San Diego also had a trainer who was going through the CSAT. And so –
Annie:
Can you spell out what that is?
Leeyah:
So yeah, the Certified Separation Anxiety Trainer program from Malena DeMartini. ‘Cause I remember I was like, I don't like this, this is horrible. And she was like, well, we have Patty who is going through the CSAT. And so why don't you call her? And so I like called her and I was like crying. And I feel so bad for this. But I called her crying and she told me basically, kind of the gist of what to do.
She was like, don't leave him alone anymore. And I was like, what? Like that's crazy. And then basically, you are making a contract with your dog right now to never leave him a little longer than he can handle. And that's gonna really build the foundation. I was like, this sounds really exactly, like it just aligned with how I was feeling, felt really good. And then she sent me a text and was like, and buy this book and let me know what you think. Cause I told her, I was super into it. Didn't have really enough money to pay for her program, which you know, was unfortunate.
Annie:
Well – to pay for this trainer's program, you mean? And did she tell you to buy Malena’s book?
Leeyah:
Yeah. So she told –
Annie:
I've done the same thing with clients. I've said you could work with us on this, but you could also, and we will help you, you know, but a lot of it's gonna be holding your hand going through what's in this book, which is great to have that help. But if you can't afford it or can't find that, this is a good resource, because she really does break things down and even better, I think in her newer book. Yeah. And I confuse the names of both of them. So I'm not gonna – one is newer.
Leeyah:
Yeah. I read both of them, actually. I got both of them. And so I put them both together, and this is why I was like, I need to become a dog trainer because I was so proud of how I could read her book and take the concepts, and I was using them, and it was working and I was like seeing progress within like a few weeks or whatever. It was like, you know, a tiny bit of progress, but I was like, this is actually working. And so then after a few months, I could leave him for 20 minutes. And I was like, okay. I feel really, really good about this.
And then it just continued working really well. And afterwards I was like, this is what I wanna do. I want to show people that, first of all, I think the biggest thing I wanted to do was tell the world that there was another way. Because I personally and a lot of people in my life didn't even realize that there was another way other than the cry-it-out method. So that was like, my big start to TikTok, was like cry it out, be gone. The cry it out hater.
Annie:
Really, was that your first TikTok or reel?
Leeyah:
I mean, yeah, a lot of my first reels and TikToks were like, don't leave your dog to cry it out. There's another way. Like, it's slow and steady. Read Malena’s books, blah, blah, blah. And yeah.
Annie:
Now did your mother-in-law, did she tell you that you were bananas? Yeah. When you told her that you weren't gonna do cry it out, but you were gonna never leave him alone.
Leeyah:
Yes. And at the time, my seven or eight month old nephew was doing the cry out method with his parents. And so she was like, if you come back in after five minutes, because he's crying, he's just gonna cry for five minutes more and blah, blah, blah. And for weeks and months, like she was telling me this every time I would tell her that I was coming back in after he started crying or like only going for four minutes or whatever.
And so I was making progress. And guess who wasn't making progress? And like, I love them, but it's been two years and the cry out method has still not worked. So, I think my method is better.
Annie:
Well, you know, extinction is tricky, right?
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
I have a friend who's, they've done cry out with their child three or four times now because of the spontaneous recovery of behavior that happens, and I'm always careful about equating dogs with children, especially because I think like there's so many inputs in a child's life. And so many variables. It's not like you do cry it out with your kid, obviously they're gonna be screwed up.
Leeyah:
Yeah. Of course.
Annie:
And even with a dog, like you, you might do bark it out with a dog and have a dog who's like, totally fine. Didn't bother him at all.
Leeyah:
Totally.
Annie:
But I think because there are so more, there are fewer inputs for a dog in their lives. There are fewer variables, there's fewer, you know, their world is so much smaller in a way. And I think the chances of it leading to other problems directly seems riskier, you know?
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
And riskier in a way that it's not just gonna make a kid grow up to have failed relationships or a bad temper, but could actually involve somebody getting bitten in the face.
Leeyah:
Yeah. Yeah. And I did a lot of my own Google research on the cry out method in humans when I was first learning about this method, ‘cause I obviously had my mother-in-law all in my ear about it. And I was trying to prove her wrong. So what's crazy is my nephew never learned to be like, he never learned to self settle. And this is like the thing about some dogs, some humans is just like some of them – maybe it's like the genetic disposition or something, but like with some humans and dogs, like they could be fine and some just won't ever.
So he, they had to get a lock on the door. They had to put a lock on the what is it called for babies, a crib. They had to put a lock on the crib so that he couldn't get out. And that just like is very similar to putting a dog in a crate and then a crash proof crate or whatever, a escape proof crate, because they're just like trying harder and harder in this way when it's like, let's try the other way. Like let's just try it and see if it works.
Annie:
Yeah. It's cascading interventions rather than dealing with the root source of the problem.
Leeyah:
Yes.
Annie:
Right? And actually it's funny ‘cause it relates to what you and I were talking about a couple weeks ago when we were talking about that Facebook post. Which, I recorded that, but I don't think I'm gonna post it cause it was just too all over the place. But I've been thinking about it, or maybe I will post it, but I don't know. But in summary, assuming I post this before I post that, it was about this person on Face –I mean you could go off about so many things on Facebook. I don't know why this one in particular stuck in my craw.
But this woman whose dog is peeing inside and peeing on the carpet, basically – that's the short story of it – for a variety of reasons, it sounds like, which were pretty well outlined. And yet she was posting about like, is there some sort of light I can use so that I can spot clean the pee off the rug? Rather than having to clean the whole rug. Rather than dealing with all the other issues that this dog was terrified of the cat and scared of going outside.
And a lot of the comments had to do with like yeah, combating the problem rather than dealing with the issue of the problem and also attributing all kinds of things to the dog that are, you know, completely subjective. Like, you know, the dog is clearly a spoiled brat.
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
Just being a big baby. Did George get called names? “Manipulative.” [laughs]
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
How were you actually able to like, not leave them alone though? Did you have to like – I mean, ‘cause that is a very practical thing that I think keeps some people approaching separation anxiety in a systematic way is like, what did you do? Did you bring him to work with you? Did you work from home? Did you get a neighbor?
Leeyah:
I talked to my mother-in-law about it and really just begged her to, ‘cause she was working from home ‘cause it was COVID. So I just begged her to watch him. I was working half days I think out of the house. I would drive the opposite direction like 20 minutes and drop him off. And then I would drive like 40 minutes the other way to go to work. And so I did that, and then the times that she wouldn't be able to, I basically asked my employer to work from home, and I explained to her, and like she was kind of an animal person, and it was COVID so I kind of like really had like this long discussion about it. And it worked out because of those two conversations that I had, basically getting them to work with me a little bit.
And then every day I would work on it a tiny little bit. So I would do 10 minutes of walking out the back door. So I started with the back door actually. And I would just like leave into the backyard without him, and he would stay in the living room, and then I'd come right back. And then I would just start going in the backyard for longer and longer, and eventually he was okay with like five minutes in the backyard. Then I started with the front door, kind of back to zero again, and then just started to generalize, like me leaving in the backyard, totally easy, you can see me back there cause it's a glass door front yard or the front door. And just slowly after maybe a few months he was okay with like 20 minutes outside the front door.
Annie:
And were you using a crate, or not using a crate?
Leeyah:
Yeah, so we did use a crate, but before I started the separation training, I had done like the two months of crate training that we were working on initially for the separation anxiety, that wasn't helping the separation anxiety, but it really did give us like this solid foundation for crate training because he was able to be left alone in the crate with me in the room with the door closed for 10, 15, 20 minutes.
Annie:
Was he also upset when your fiance would leave or was it only when you left?
Leeyah:
It would be anytime he was completely alone. So if my fiance was here, he was fine.
Annie:
I guess what I meant more like is if – so it wasn't about you leaving. It was about being alone.
Leeyah:
Yeah. So technically it was isolation distress, not separation anxiety, which is the majority, I think, of most dogs that have feelings about being left alone is, I think a good majority is isolation distress.
Annie:
And it's certainly understandable considering that, I mean, people are probably suffering a lot of separation distress too. Like we're not meant to be so separated and so isolated.
Leeyah:
Yeah. I mean, I basically tell like people –
Annie:
I mean my daughter can't be in a room by herself. Right? Not just that, like she's gonna hurt herself, she's not old enough, but like, she would be scared.
Leeyah:
Yeah. I think it's like a basic mammalian survival instinct. I mean maybe not even just mammalian. Yeah. And I don't know if mammalian’s a word.
Annie.
Mammalian, mammalian?
Leeyah:
Like of mammals.
Annie:
Yeah. Although I think mammal is also an adjective as well as a noun. But I'm not sure. Do you know where the word mammal comes from?
Leeyah:
No.
Annie:
All mammals, or almost all of them, have mammary glands means it has to do with the fact that we have breast milk.
Leeyah:
That is so interesting.
Annie:
Yeah. Nothing made me feel more mammal than we're mammalian than uh, than breastfeeding. Let's turn our focus a little bit to the actual course. Tell me how would you describe it to someone?
Leeyah:
Well, the course consisted of, a big chunk of it was like an academic module based kind of workbook type thing that we would go through and learn on our own and then have discussions about. We had practical assignments for, short answer assignments for, so based off of every little module on body language, animal behavior, reinforcement.
Annie:
Right. So there's a practical, I mean, there's like a textbook, basically. Like a digital textbook with readings and some quizzes writing assignments and–
Leeyah:
And lectures.
Annie:
Right. And video lectures.
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
And those are done kind of like on a weekly basis, right?
Leeyah:
Yeah. Yeah. So over the six months, I think the last month was all finals. But yeah, so we would go through the textbook and we would kind of deep dive into each topic. We had office hours weekly. So it was like a small group of, I think there was four of us. And then the course manager leader who was amazing and gave us the opportunity to explore the topics with him, and then with each other. Ask questions about things, kind of even like we would go into a deep dive on the topic and then we would go into other questions that we had about certain things that were related that we might come up with in our training careers and discuss that.
And then it was also cool because I feel like with the small group, we all really got to know each other too, and felt comfortable talking to each other off of office hours. You know, we would message about the practical assignments and maybe do things like that, which was awesome.
Annie:
Yeah. I mean, you wanna be seeing what other people are working on. So the practical stuff you did with George, and other dogs?
Leeyah:
Yeah, I did it George mostly. And then also – which was actually great, because me and Sarah were both virtual and we both had two different dogs to work with. So I had my mother-in-law's dog, a five year old mini golden doodle. And she was a completely different experience than working with George because she did not have a strong history of clicker training and reinforcement. But also she was much more confident and less scared of new things. George is a little bit apprehensive about things, he always has been. So it was good to get the opportunity to do assignments with her and him.
And then Sarah, I think, worked with her dog and her partner's dog, and then Elise and Ionalee were in person and they got to work with a bunch of different dogs, which was pretty awesome. So it was great. I think we all had the opportunity to work with more than just our dog.
Annie:
Mm-hmm mm-hmm. And there's also the aspect of shadowing sessions.
Leeyah:
Which was amazing.
Annie:
Yeah. Can you share a little bit about that? Cause I think that too, is something kind of unique about this program.
Leeyah:
Totally. I think that was the biggest, I don't know, just like overall confidence builder, because I was seeing exactly, I was like a fly on the wall. But also some of them, like some of the clients did interact with you and you were like a fly on the wall. So it was like, we also got to chat about their dog about what they were doing. And then some of the times we would just be watching like a whole group session from the Zoom in the class and the trainer would take us around and be able to show everything.
But then also we would kind of just be like sitting and watching for an hour, which was really nice because we would also take notes on everything. And like we had these sheets to take the information down on. But I feel like just being like, it felt like we were just there and we were able to see how things played out in real life. When tough training questions come up, when random training questions come up, when things happen like a dog pees on the floor in the middle of the session. Or like, I don't know, a dog needs a different type of assignment because they're struggling with something.
And, you know, how to kind of answer questions that are tough, how to move training sessions along and in a real way. ‘Cause in the course, we kind of had a module on that as well. And then seeing it actually, especially seeing the trainers that do it the same way in the course, because it's like the School for the Dogs method, it was kind of like a whole big picture of everything. So.
Annie:
Were there any specific moments with clients that you remember, or any of the lectures or the office hours that were particularly memorable?
Leeyah:
I mean, Malena DeMartini!
Annie:
Oh right. We had her talk. Yeah.
Leeyah:
Yeah. And like some really amazing other trainers too. Like I really didn't know much about service dog training, so that was amazing. Learning all about different areas of training that are different specialties, from the actual trainers themselves who are doing it, and coming in to kind of share their experience and their knowledge was really amazing.
Annie:
And what about the writing assignments, that part of it?
Leeyah:
Mm. The writing assignments were the most helpful for, I feel like understanding animal behavior terms and the concepts, because I would have to go through the module, answer the questions on my own and then submit them, and then we would get feedback on them. But the feedback wouldn't be like exactly what the answer is supposed to be if it was wrong. It would be asking me more questions about the question in a different way, maybe so that I could try to come up with the missing answer on my own, which was I feel like a really good training technique from Em to do that.
And then further we would go into the practical and the written assignments together on office hours. So we would discuss things and sometimes if we weren't absolutely correct, we would have discussions about them. If we had different things to bring to the conversation, it was really awesome because a lot of the, like for example, I learned a lot, even from the other apprentices because they were asking questions that I wasn't even thinking of.
Annie:
And now you're seeing clients. Right?
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
Which is awesome.
Leeyah:
Yeah. It's pretty amazing. I am like, so in love with the job that I do and the journey that I've like gone on and the amazing people and pet parents that have the same values as me, the same mentality as me with their pets, that they really want to be doing whatever they can to make their life as long, full, and happy as possible.
Annie:
Yeah. Well, it's so gratifying to have gotten to know you over the last few years and to feel like I played a role in helping you find this path feels like a win for me. I know I'm never gonna cure cancer, but.
Leeyah:
It's really amazing. Yeah.
Annie:
Maybe it's too much of a different topic, but I know that we were talking recently about misconceptions about positivity. I thought we could, maybe you could explain a little bit about how dog training has changed the way you think about being positive. Cause we were – well for those who were not listening, which is nobody was listening. [laughs] We were talking about how we both grew up with parents who were like super, like if you think good things will happen, good things will happen. Like you have to put it out there into the universe. Think good thoughts, picture, picture what you want.
Which like I'm not against doing any of that. But it's a little bit at odds with, I don't know, like science based science based dog training.
Leeyah:
A hundred percent. Yeah. Like you are basically giving up control or whatever, or like yeah. Like even responsibility almost.
Annie:
What was your positive, positive, so-called positive childhood like?
Leeyah:
My [inaudible] was very negative.
Annie:
Well, I mean, did you feel like if things went wrong, were blamed for it? ‘Cause I think that's also the flip side of the coin is like, if you don't make the good things happen, it's somehow your fault, which certainly relates to a lot of the Cesar Millan, energy based dog training. It's not your dog, it's you. It's your outlook.
Leeyah:
Yeah. Which, I hate that. But I think my positivity was more, I think it's even worse. It was like, you did nothing wrong, it's the universe. Which is so backwards, or like it is at odds with science based training, because basically now it's not like, oh, you know, like we did our best. It's like, how can we set up the environment? How can we make sure that what we're doing is proactive so that we are avoiding situations that put us in these negative experiences, and then taking that information.
‘Cause sometimes we F up, right. And sometimes something goes wrong, management fails, whatever, we do something wrong and we're not just gonna be like, oopsie, moving on. What we're gonna do is be like, where did we, like step by step, what happened here? ABC. And how can we set the environment up differently, set the plan up differently to make it better. Like, we were talking about that too last time.
Annie:
Right. Like, that was part of my response to this person complaining about their dog peeing on the rug, was like, how can we change the environment before anything else? I mean, I definitely felt, and I mean, I can't say like who or where I got it from, but I think I did feel more like problems or unhappiness was internal. Like it was like a cancer inside of me that I had to combat or that was my fault, rather than like, Hey, let's figure out maybe how we can alter the environment to change the way you feel and behave.
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
And I see that mirrored in the world of dog training as it's been traditionally, like if there's something wrong with your dog, you’re weak. You’re the problem, you have a problem inside you, your energy is bad.
Leeyah:
Literally, yeah.
Annie:
Rather than being like, let's stop pointing fingers at who's the problem and actually look at how we can, I mean, literally arrange things. Like, physically arrange things to make things better. I mean, in a deeper way, it goes back to the whole kind of divide in psychology between analytic psychology and more like behavioral psychology.
What was the hardest part, would you say, for you?
Leeyah:
Oh, the hardest part was definitely the, what is it called? The verbal discrimination and the stimulus control with the George.
Annie:
Yeah. Well maybe you can explain what those are.
Leeyah:
So we worked on, for months, slowly, getting to a discrimination of a verbal cue with the same object. So that would be saying verbally a – for George, it was pawing something with his hand. So pawing the object with his hand or booping it with his nose.
Annie:
So teaching the difference between a nose touch and a paw touch basically.
Leeyah:
Yeah. But it was like so hard because we learned with an object, and so there was the object cue, which was so strong that you had to get into the stimulus control, and then it was so much harder for George to respond verbally to the cues, as opposed to like – if I like sit with my physical cue or whatever my hand signal, it was just a lot easier. So I think the verbal discrimination was really hard for George specifically. And for me specifically, because it was very, it was just frustrating.
[laughing]
Annie:
Well, you got there though. No?
Leeyah:
Yeah. We, we actually did, apparently. It was really hard.
Annie:
And what was the, I don't know, the easiest part? Or the most fun?
Leeyah:
Mm. Taking all the finals and graduating.
[laughing]
Annie:
Well, thank you so much for talking and giving me your time. And =I'm just really glad to know you. I'm a big Leeyah Wiseman fan. And I am so excited to see where you go from here and hope that we have a long future working together. I think we have some projects we're both excited about.
Leeyah:
Yeah.
Annie:
And like I said, I love how you just go for things and, you know, go in heart first.
Leeyah:
Thanks.
Annie:
And I think you're, I think it makes you brave and also lovely.
Leeyah:
Thank you. Well, I was inspired by you and am so appreciative and grateful for School For The Dogs and for you and the relationship that we have, and just being, you know, – like I feel like you are the start of my dog training journey. Like it all started with like your voice on like my fault and listening and changed my life.
Annie:
Aww. Tears! We're all gonna cry!
[music]
We are accepting applications to the professional course through the end of this month. You can apply at schoolforthedogs.com/professionalcourse22. And if you just wanna learn a little bit more about it, Leeyah is doing free consults right now, as is our other recent graduate, Sara. You can book a 15 minute session with either of them at schoolforthedogs.com/freeconsult.
Special thanks as always to toast garden for the theme music, and if you like this podcast, stop what you’re doing, go over to itunes, and leave a five star rating and a review.
