19 NovEpisode 34 | How I used punishment to train my husband to cover his mouth when he yawns (Part 1)
Annie is happily married to a man named Jason Pedicone, who is basically perfect in every way except... he doesn't cover his mouth when he yawns. So, she decided to use her talents as a dog trainer to train him to change this behavior. But she decided to try something she doesn't normally do with dogs: She attempted to curb his habit by using punishment. While she sort of succeeded, she also got a first hand taste at how training using punishment can mar a relationship in unexpected ways.
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Jason:
Coming to you live from New York state highway 81 North. It's a gray day here on the shores of Lake Ontario. Just came off extraordinarily greasy lunch and we're ready to talk about punishment.
**music**
Annie:
Hello listeners. Doing a little bit of an experiment in podcasting this afternoon. My husband and I are on a little road trip to Montreal and we're gonna be doing some car casting. Is that an actual phrase? I don't know. Podcasting from the car. We'll see how it goes. I forgot my microphone back at home. So the quality might not be top notch, but the content will be because my husband is here and he's a genius.
We are going to talk about punishment. Specifically a punishment in our relationship, more specifically about a specific incident where I attempted to use punishment to change Jason's behavior. But before we get into this particular incident, Jason, why don't you, I'm curious for if you could tell me or our listeners what you, how you would have thought about punishment or how you would have defined punishment prior to your union with a dog trainer.
Jason:
Yeah, that's a very good question. I guess, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of a punishment is just something bad that happens to someone or something in order to try to discourage it from doing something which is bad. So spanking a child or spraying a cat in the face with a water bottle, something like that.
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah. Although I think too often and really the technical definition of punishment is that it discourages a behavior. But I think too often it can get wrapped up in the idea that it's something bad. And that I was actually, I was just listening to an interview on Fresh Air with the actor, Jonah Hill, who has a new movie out about skateboarding, and he was talking about how he got really into skateboarding when he was a teenager because it was so, like, I think he described it as punishing and painful and punishing and that made him want to do it more. And I thought, okay, well I totally understand what he's saying, but actually the pain was reinforcing, not punishing because if it made him want to do it more, then that wouldn't be punishment. Anyway. But,I know you tried to use punishment with the dog that you had before we met, right?
Jason:
Yeah. Uh, I used to have a dog who was extremely high strung and he was a Papillon and just sort of always very excited. His little body was constantly taut and he barked a lot and he had this issue where, when I went out and left him home alone, he would bark nonstop for hours.
Annie:
If only you had called a dog trainer, we might've met much earlier.
Jason:
That's true. It would have been useful for all kinds of reasons. Anyway, I couldn't think of anything other than to eventually just, well actually I think what we did is we went to, we went to a pet store and talk to a…
Annie:
…. pet store expert?
Jason:
…a pet store employee. And the pet store employee suggested a shock collar, which, now knowing you…
Annie:
you used the shot caller with this dog?
Jason:
I shudder to even admit this.
Annie:
I think this was the first time you're actually telling me this.
Jason:
Yeah. Am I in for punishment?
Annie:
Continue.
Jason:
So can punishment be used to prevent an action in the past? That's a philosophical question. Anyway, so, of course I was somewhat concerned, at the idea of causing the dog pain, but the pet store employee, she assured me that this collar only used static electricity. So while it wasn't…so, it wasn't really painful. It was just sort of surprising. And the way the collar worked was, it had a little microphone on it. And so when it heard, when it received the sound of the dog barking, it would shock him right in his neck.
Annie:
Can I just interject here to say that we've been dealing, you know, we just moved to a new studio. I know that, you know that, but I don't know if as someone who lives with me is aware, School for the Dogs has just moved to a new studio and we have mats all over the floors in this basement area that's kind of like a guess, kind of like a dry basement. And we've been dealing with serious static electricity issues. Which is annoying for the humans and something we're trying to figure out, like a problem we're trying to solve. But it's awful for the dogs because static electricity is no joke. And at least as humans you kind of like know why it's happening. And know it has nothing to do with, you know, it's not your fault. It's nothing to do with any particular, it's not, I mean, I guess it does have to do with your behavior because you did something to make it. But we have had several incidents with dogs who were there for, you know, lessons having to do with their stress and sensitivity where the dogs have gotten shocked. And then I've been terrified of whoever shocked them or whatever area in the room they were shocked. And so, you know, we think of static electricity as no biggie, but actually, especially for a stressed dog, I have witnessed it being pretty terrifying.
Anyway, so what you had was a supposedly mild shock collar on the small dog and when he barked he got shocked. Is that right?
Jason:
Yeah.
Annie:
Did it work?
Jason:
It did. It did work. Uh, kind of. So he had another symptom of stress and anxiety, which was also that he would jump up and down. And another thing that I did…
Annie:
Wait, hold on. Before we talk about something else though. I just want to know how did you witness it working? The shock collar? Was he like not barking when you went out anymore?
Jason:
Right. Yeah, we stopped getting complaints about the dog barking while we were out.
Annie:
All right. So I would actually say that was punishment that was perhaps effective, although who knows what, you know, he might not have understood he was being… I mean it's always the problem with punishment is knowing if the dog understands, you know, the specific thing he's being punished for. But it sounds like it was effective in that it did curb the barking. Not that it's a solution I would suggest. And, of course, the reason I wouldn't suggest it is because you already had an anxious dog and then, you know, he was, you were adding stress by giving him electric shocks or he was getting electric shocks even if you weren't the one necessarily delivering them on the spot. And often what can happen is we call it like switching seats in the Titanic where you know, you solve the one problem, but then he starts chewing his leg or peeing in the corner or doing something else to express his stress. Like you weren't actually getting rid of the problem of him being stressed out when you left. He was still stressed out when you left, if not more so, because now you left and he was getting shocked. Right?
Jason:
That’s what I was going to say.
Annie:
Sorry, I interrupted you.
Jason:
There was another symptom which was jumping, so he would,in addition to barking sort of every few seconds, he would also jump up and down constantly.
And the reason we knew this is when we came home, we would find like thousands of little paw prints by the front door. So he knew that he had been like pacing and jumping. But also eventually I was curious what was happening while he was at home. So I went out and bought a video camera that I could view from my cell phone and I had video evidence of him jumping over and over again in front of the front door. And so when we put the shock collar on him, it definitely curbed the barking because there was a sort of a one to one, you know, you bark, you get a shock, a stimulus response. But he kept jumping and he would jump for hours like hundreds and hundreds of times while we were out. So I felt bad and clearly he was still very stressed out.
Annie:
That's a terrible story. So what would you do differently now? I'm just curious. Now that you, your life is immeshed with the life of a dog trainer and you've listened to at least one episode of School for the Dogs podcast on high-speed. He listens to it on high-speed because it goes faster. What would you do differently now?
Jason:
I think what I would probably do, instead of getting a collar that shocked the dog, when he barked, I might like see if I could get like a tranquilizer-laced treats and
Annie laughing:
Jason:
And bark induced treat dispenser.
Annie:
Okay.
Jason:
So that presumably then when the dog barked he would get a treat. And that would probably reinforce itself so he would keep barking, but eventually he put himself to sleep.
Annie:
So there actually is a product like that that's made by the company Pet Safe. I don't really know how well it works. We had one that we tested for a little while and I think it didn't work that well. If there's an inventor out there listening, I think this is a product that should be developed. But that's the idea is that it, like, shapes quiet. So the dog wears the collar and if he's quiet at first for like 30 seconds, that dispenses a treat and then he needs to be quiet for 40 seconds. It dispenses a treat. And then I think if he starts barking, it like resets itself. Or maybe it delivers at some variable rate.
But there's also an app. And I think it's still out there. I haven't checked for awhile. It's an iPad app called Pavlov Dog Monitor. And it's a similar idea where you can, rather than dispensing a treat you like record your voice saying like “good job”. And it not only tracks your dog's barking so you can come home and like look at a graph and see how much your dog has been barking. But, it also shapes quiet by periodically, like same thing, like after a minute it'll say “good job.” And then after, you know, a minute and a half it'll say, “good job” and then it'll start, I think, at a more variable rate or reset if necessary. Um, although, the one thing about Pavlov Dog Monitor, last time I looked at it, it was, there was also the option to record a voice that said “bad dog.” And I have told clients who use it to just not record anything for that part because I think any reaction from the device is probably considered reinforcing to the dog. So better to just use reinforcement, the positive reinforcement of using “good dog” and not deal with, not use the bad dog part.
Anyways, so that was your old dog and he also had issues on the street, right?
Jason:
Yeah, he had well I know now that it's called leash aggression. Butt back then I just thought he was a psychopath.
Annie:
Well, you know what, our class is called, right for, for leash reactive dogs.
Jason:
What's that?
Annie:
Sidewalk Psychos.
Jason:
Yeah. He was definitely a sidewalk psycho. And he would lunge with, you know, really violent aggression at pretty much any dog that came near us while we were walking. And I didn't know how to deal with that either. So, I would sort of like stick my finger in his face and yell at him, sometimes even kind of like hit him very softly to try to get him to stop. And it's sometimes kind of worked for like….so if we passed one dog and he freaked out, then I would, you know, scream and put my finger in his face and tell him “no.” And then like when we walked by another dog, I could see him getting ready and then he would remember and he would look up at me and sort of cower. So it would work for like one dog, but then he would forget and by the time we got to the third dog, he would be, you know, a total violent psychopath again.
Annie:
This must've made walks pretty stressful for you.
Jason:
Yeah, yeah, he was just a really problematic dog.
Annie:
So how would you deal with that differently now knowing what you know about training or would you deal with it differently?
Jason:
I think I would. Yeah. I think I would probably bring a really delicious, like high value treat.
Annie:
I thought you were going to say bring a dog trainer on the walk with you.
Jason:
I would marry a dog trainer that probably just let her deal with it.
No, I would bring a high value treat on the walk like bacon or something related and then I would, every time I saw another dog coming I would just give him bacon so that he was really happy and excited and he learned to associate seeing other dogs with getting bacon.
Jason:
I think that would be a pretty, pretty good plan, to start out with at least. But I'm sure, I don't remember it, but I'm sure at some point you told me about that issue and I suggested some version of that solution and it probably sounded a little crazy, right? Like why am I giving the wacko dog bacon when he was going nuts at another dog?
Jason:
Well, you know, at this point I'm so well trained that it doesn't sound crazy at all, but I can imagine how somebody who was not initiated might think it was reinforcing the bad behavior.
Annie:
Right, right. We’re at a toll.
Well I think that's pretty typical reaction and my response to someone who raises their eyebrows at the suggestion of, you know, trying to work at creating a good association by feeding a dog when they're reacting to another dog on the street that way would be that you always need to..
Oh we are five miles from Canada
That you always need to focus on the emotional response before you focus on the actual behavior. And that if you can change your dog's underlying feelings about whatever it is that's causing them to display the unwanted behavior, that you can usually change the behavior itself. So when you have to choose basically innerdy terms, if you have to choose between classical conditioning or learning by association, sorry, classical conditioning aka learning by association and operant conditioning aka learning by consequence, You’re always choosing classical conditioning first. And that's where, you know, other dog equals bacon, other dog equals bacon comes in. Before you start thinking about, well, am I reinforcing or punishing a specific behavior? You need to think first about the cause of the behavior.
Look at that. It's Canada. We're almost in Canada.
Jason:
We are going over the thousand island bridge right now
Annie:
Beautiful.
Jason:
As a underappreciated salad dressing. I would say. I think there was thousand islands salad dressing on top of our fried cheese curds at lunch.
Annie:
and fried pickles. We had fried pickles. I would say the behavior of going to Palasky New York for fried pickles was probably punished,
Jason
Definitely not reinforced
Annie:
The behavior was discouraged. All right.
Jason:
We won’t mention the name of the restaurant where we had these fried pickles because we don't want to,,
Annie:
the fried pickles were not really the low point though for me.
Jason:
What would you say the most discouraging item on the lunch menu?
Annie:
I think it was the fact that she brought out dessert while the fried pickles were still on the table. That was kind of gross to me, but, all right, we digress.
Alright, let's talk about punishment in our relationship. So by and large for those who don't know us, we are a pretty happy couple I'd say, wouldn't you?
Jason:
Yeah.
AnnieL
It doesn't sound very convincing.
Jason:
I'm very happily married to you.
Annie:
I mean, we don't argue a lot, right?
Jason:
What are you talking about?
Annie:
We're not a very combative couple I would say. But we did have, I mean we've had a couple, a couple tiffs we can call them. And one of the larger ones was really my fault. I'll cop to that. And it was because I very deliberately attempted to change one of Jason's annoying behaviors of which there are only like three, using punishment. Well, I don't know, should I tell my version of the story and then you can tell your version of the story?
Jason:
Sure:
Annie:
Okay. So one of the, you know, one of the very few annoying habits that Jason has and I think every couple has like a couple of things that just irk them. Is he often yawns with his mouth wide open and he doesn't cover his mouth. And this bothers me. And I, you know, I thought about how I could change this behavior by using positive reinforcement. And, you know, I don't know, I mean rewarding him every moment of the day that he is not yawning seemed like not a feasible solution….
Jason:
Even though every moment with you is rewarding.
Annie:
Right, exactly. So I was already rewarding you for all of those moments in the day. And, you know, another way to get rid of behavior is to train an alternate behavior, but yawning is, you know, sort of a built in behavior. So I am not clever enough to figure how I would train an alternate behavior, like, I don't know, clapping your hands every time you want a yawn or something. I'm not a good enough dog trainer to figure out how to train that.
As I was saying that he just yawned and he covered his mouth. So maybe I've had some success, more success than I realized. You're not even looking at me. It's really, it's really like when you're facing me and you yawn with your mouth open, then it bothers me. When you're not looking at me, it's like I don't have to look inside of your mouth. It's not so bad.
**music**
Annie:
So I at first did try and praise him every time he did cover his mouth when he yawned. And I still do this, but it didn't seem to, I mean, I guess I would suggest that he cover his mouth. And then when he did cover his mouth, I would praise him lavishly. But I don't know, maybe either I wasn't consistent enough about it. Maybe praise just wasn't enough of a reinforcer. What could I have done that or what could I do that would be more reinforcing to encourage you when you do cover your mouth.
Jason:
You could pat me on the head and call me good boy.
Annie:
I don't think that would really work. Jelly beans?
Jason:
Yeah.
Annie:
if I carried around a bunch of jelly beans?
Alright, well, anyway, I tried reinforcing the good behavior, but there was really one behavior I was trying to encourage, which was mouth covering. And then one I was trying to discourage, which was gaping mouth open yawning. And I guess in some sort of evil way, I thought, what if I did make an experiment out of trying to use punishment to change, to get rid of the behavior I don't like instead of focusing on encouraging the behavior I do want.
And I really try to not like purposefully use much punishment in my life with those I love. I have one specific punishment that I use with my dog Amos and I do it maybe a couple of times a year and it's scary bear face we call it. How would you describe scary bear face?
Jason:
Um, it’s making yourself look like a scary bear?
Annie:
That's a really detailed description. Good, good one.
Jason:
Well, it's an overly descriptive name, I would say.
Annie:
Yeah. I kind of like, hold up my hands and make my face look scary. And it tends to work. And I try to use it sparingly usually when he's barking uncontrollably. But it is not my go to move. Although I do suggest if you are going to use any form of punishment, that your dog it'd be something that is that makes you look that stupid because it certainly doesn't impress anyone around me when I do it. And something that doesn't cause any kind of physical pain and something that you use very, very rarely because if you use it a lot, it will stop working. And I actually think, I think Jason has overused my scary bear face to the point where it actually, maybe doesn't work that well anymore with Amos.
But anyway, so I got in my head the idea that I was going to try and stop his wide mouth yawning behavior using punishment. So what I started to do was every time he yawned and he didn't cover his mouth, I would stick my finger in his mouth. And I think I did this with some regularity for a couple of months.
And I think he did start to do it less actually. So it was somewhat effective because it definitely annoyed him to have my finger in his mouth.
Jason:
How did you know it annoyed me?
Annie:
Well, I guess because I think, first of all, you told me that it annoyed you, but also I think you stopped doing it as much so I assumed that whatever I was doing was effective punishment. But,you know, I usually, I did it when it was just the two of us, I think. Anyway, one night we went to dinner at a friend's apartment and we were at the dinner table and he yawned and I stuck my finger in his mouth and he just like gave me this cold stare and was clearly angry for the rest of dinner.
And then the second, like we stepped into the elevator, outside their apartment to leave. He just like went into a tirade. I don't remember exactly what you said, but he was really angry and all he could do was laugh, which, at the time, I thought I was laughing because like, it worked like what I had done had been so annoying, but with reflection, you know, it didn't really work because I wasn't looking for him to, I mean, if you're gonna use punishment, it should ideally be subtle and, you know, not disruptive in the same way my bear face is. I don't feel like I put my relationship with Amos at stake every time I do it and it's pretty subtle. Whereas sticking your finger in someone's mouth over a dinner table, I guess, is not subtle. Also, you know, my goal wasn't to get him to freak out, my goal like that, wasn't the behavior I was looking to increase, I was looking to decrease the behavior of yawning with his mouth open.
Anyway, in the moment, I thought I was laughing because I was like, Oh my God, I have succeeded somehow at my experiment with hindsight, I think I was laughing as a kind of displacement behavior, like, which I remember used to happen sometimes when I was a kid and my mom would get really upset rather than myself being upset, I would laugh. It was like a way to release some sort of stress. So I think, you know, we see these kinds of displacement behaviors with dogs all the time,, where you have a sort of uncomfortable energy that gets released in some way that seems irrelevant or inappropriate.
Anyway, eventually we made up and the argument did punish my behavior. ‘Cause I think after that I stopped sticking my finger in Jason's mouth. So him getting upset at me changed that behavior. But I also do think it made him generally better about covering his mouth because I think it, like the whole incident just created such a bad…. It was like, we both had such bad memories of the incident that, like, the argument itself in some way punished the behavior. But I don't know what's your side of the tale?
Jason:
Yeah, I did get extremely annoyed, angry when you would do that and more so when you did it to me in public, in front of our friends.
Annie:
But I don't think I did it many times. That's the only time I really remember it being an issue that I did it in front of other people. Do you think that was the thing that it was like in front of other people?
Jason:
I think that was what pushed me over the edge into sort of blowing up. I generally didn't like it and I think I told you that repeatedly. And I also, I also thought like, I mean, I knew because you told me, I knew that it was that you were experimenting and I didn't really like that either because I didn't feel like our relationship was a good venue for behavioral experimentation.
Annie:
Yeah. But I mean, which I get, but I also, like my point of view on that is, you know, we’re all affecting each other's behavior all the time. And the fact that I was just being more thoughtful and purposeful about it, you know, is what maybe made you call it an experiment. But that, you know, there are subtle ways in which we change one another's behavior, you know, every day, all day, whether or not you're a couple where one of the people is a dog trainer.
Jason:
Yeah, of course. And you know, you could also argue back that,you know, simply saying, “I don't like it when you do that, could you please stop,” is also a form of punishment or, you know, negative reinforcement or whatever.
I also just, didn't like your dirty fingers in my mouth.
Annie:
That's the point! I knew you didn't like it. Just to be clear, negative reinforcement is when you're encouraging and behavior, by taking something away. I was discouraging a behavior, which is punishment anyway. So do you think that you began doing it less?
Jason:
Um, yes. I sort of developed, I mean, I think actually I do it less because we had the fight.
Annie:
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.
Jason:
And not because of you putting your fingers in my mouth and actually like your fingers in my mouth or not really what upset me, you know, in fact there are some contexts in which I wouldn't mind your fingers in my mouth.
It was more of the like fact that you, who are supposed to be my loving and supportive partner, were like intentionally doing something to cause me physical discomfort. That was..
Annie:
I wasn't actually hurting you. Let's just be clear.
Jason:
No, no. But you were just intentionally doing something unpleasant to me,
Annie:
Literally not touching you by putting, like, I would put one finger in your mouth while it was open, I'm just saying.
Jason
I think you intended to do that, but like 9 times out of 10, I got like a sort of taste of dirty finger.
Annie:
I never actually touched like your tongue or your teeth… Okay. Okay.
Jason:
But anyway, my point is not that the punishment itself, like the knowledge that you were attempting to punish me was more punishing than the punishment.
Annie:
Right. I get it. I get it. And so, well, what I actually, what I did when I was doing didn't work, but it led to this, like the sort of a Zenith of emotion.
Jason.
I would say more nadir
Annie:
Or a nadir. I always thought it's called Nay-dur. No Nay-deer. \
Alright. Okay. Well, whether it was a peak or a valley, there was some extreme point that the whole thing led to, which caused you to just cover your mouth right now, even though you're facing forward and yawning while driving. Do you want me to take the wheel by the way? Are you tired? Or are you okay. You were just yawning for the sake of yawning. Cause we were talking about yawning. Do you think anyone who listened has listened to this episode has yawned yet because of all the yawn conversation or maybe just because it's really boring.
Jason:
You know, there's a theory about yawning, which is that it's actually like a leftover behavior of nonverbal communication. Which was how sort of in tribes human beings communicated with each other. Was it was sort of a like ready signal? So if the alpha tribe leader yawned, then everybody else would yawn too, to sort of like show they were ready. And that's why yawning is so contagious.
Annie:
Huh.
Well, you know, one thing is yawning is a sign that you're awake because you don't act.. I wonder like, do we yawn when we're sleeping?
Jason
We yawn when we're tired. I think because it gives us a, you know, it's a rapid intake of oxygen.
Annie:
Right. But I wonder if there was some way it evolved because it also shows that you're awake if you're yawning. But you know, with dogs, yawning is often a stress reliever or a signal of like an appeasing and appeasement signal to other dogs. One of these displacement behaviors, also like I was talking about, where they're just uncomfortable and the energy has to go somewhere, like in my case, it made me laugh in a moment where that wasn't the appropriate reaction. But yeah yawning is not necessarily just about fatigue. Um, it's interesting. Cause there's also this whole, you know, yawning gate, shall we call it of our relationship has made me very aware of whether or not I cover my mouth when I yawn too, because even though I know it doesn't bother you really, I don't want to be like a hypocrite about it.
But wellI hope that there are not other instances of punishment that we use on each other, in our relationship, in the future. One thing, you know, there's certainly instances of a reinforcement and one thing I remember my dad telling me that he told his girlfriend to do and she did and he loved it, was whenever he fixed something in the house or did anything for her he suggested that, and I think he only likes suggested this once maybe and she like really took to it and he loved it. He would say, “why don't you call me your hero? “So whenever, you know, he changed a light bulb or did the dishes or anything, she'd say “my hero!” And that, you know, reinforced the behavior of being helpful towards her. So I hope I have many chances to call you “my hero.” I love you very much.
Alright. Anything else to add to this little peek into our domestic life together?
Jason:
No, I guess I would just say that, I forgive you for experimenting with me and it's exciting to be a guest on your podcast. And I hope that other couples can learn from our suffering and dogs too.
**music**
Annie
Our Woof Shout Out, goes to Emily Beauprey. Emily has been apprenticing at School for the Dogs, as well as running our new dog walking service. And she just graduated the apprenticeship and is now officially a School for the Dogs certified trainer. So congrats, Emily. We are really happy to have her on board.
And our Fun Dog Fact of the day. Maybe not such a fun fact, but a slightly frightening fact is that the day after Thanksgiving is actually, I have heard from many vets, one of the busiest days at veterinary ERs, because of all the trouble dogs get into eating human food, that they shouldn't be eating on Thanksgiving. And as listeners might be aware, I'm definitely not against letting dogs eat leftovers, but make sure you're keeping an eye out on what they're eating and how much they're eating.
Check the podcast notes. I will link to a blog post on this subject. So have a happy and safe holiday. And special thanks to The Channel Drifters for letting me use their ukulele cover of Hello my baby.
Links:
Pet Safe Anti-Bark Autotrainer
Blog Post: https://www.schoolforthedogs.com/the-busiest-day-at-the-veterinary-er-black-friday/
