18 SepEpisode 77 | Lessons learned from foster dogs: A discussion with our apprentice Anna Heyward
At School For The Dogs, we've been lucky enough to be able to mentor a handful of aspiring dog trainers through our apprenticeship program. One of our current apprentices, Anna Heyward, first came to us as a client. Anna, a writer who is originally from Australia, has fostered dogs in NYC for years; last year, she took in a dog whose separation anxiety was beyond anything she'd ever seen. She came to School For The Dogs after consulting with several dog trainers. Some suggested the dog was just being dramatic and that she just needed to let him manipulate her; others told her to use a shock collar on him. In this episode, Anna explains how her experience fostering dogs in New York City and her work with our trainer Anna Ostroff led her to rethink everything she thought she knew about behavior, and ultimately pursue a career in dog training.
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Transcript:
Annie:
So, I'm about to share with you is a conversation with one of School for the Dogs’ apprentices, Anna Heyward. And I wanted to talk to Anna for a bunch of reasons. I'm really interested in how people are finding their way and to the world of dog training, whether that's because they aspire to doing it professionally or not. And I met Anna when she started our six month apprenticeship. And we've gotten to know each other this year a little bit. And Anna is a very talented writer and recently I read an essay she wrote, a not yet published essay about her experience fostering. Specifically fostering one very difficult dog. And I was just so moved by what she wrote and how she wrote about the experience of being a temporary home to a dog who has behavior issues that are extreme and what that mean. What it meant-meant both for her, for the dog. What it helped her learn about the world. What she learned about the people around her, her family, her loved ones through this very difficult experience of being a foster, a foster mother to two dogs.
And so I was thrilled when she said she would talk to me a little bit about her experience as a fosterer on the podcast. But I… before I share with you this conversation, I just wanted to mention another Anna who you're going to hear about a little bit in this episode because Anna Heyward would not have come to School for the Dogs without Anna Ostroff, who is a woman I just love so much. And I was, I'm trying to think about how do I express my feelings… it's like, I feel like it's such a special thing when you get to mentor someone and then you see them being a mentor to someone else.
And I should specify I'm talking about as a mentor, but I think more of sort of Kate and me and School for the Dogs as an entity, a mentoring entity, I guess, is sort of how I think of what we're doing in a lot of ways to shape people to be better dog owners, if not dog trainers and Anna Ostroff came to School for the Dogs about four years ago with a very sweet and shy young dog named Ginger and her husband, Alan. They are theater producers and had, I believe had pretty recently before coming to us, won a Tony for a Broadway play that they produced. And I just enjoyed getting to know them as these very interesting people with an interesting theater background. So they were clients with whom I became friendly.
And then Anna reached out to me at some point and said that she had done a lot of fostering that had really made her interested in learning more about dog training and working with her dog as well, had led her to start thinking about becoming a dog trainer. And would I write a letter of recommendation for her to go to the Karen Pryor Academy, which is the program I went to when I first decided I was going to become a dog trainer, and I said, yes, absolutely. I would be thrilled to; however, maybe we can figure out some sort of education that you can pursue through us that wouldn't be exactly like Karen Pryor, but could be something like our version of it with the added bonus of you would be able to work with your dog at our studio. You would be able to work with probably even some clients' dogs here, we have dogs at the studio all the time, whereas at Karen Pryor Academy, you meet with an instructor every six weeks, but you don't necessarily get to work with any or very many dogs beyond your own.
So we ended up kind of building the apprenticeship for Anna, and we've now had, gosh, I think eight or 10 people go through it. And it's a mix of lectures and hands-on work with your own dog and dogs at our studio. There's a shadowing requirement. So you get to sit in a lot of private lessons and group classes. Anyway, it's constantly being perfected. We're actually trying to get a virtual version of it up sometime soon. So if you're interested in learning more, do make sure to sign up for our newsletter at schoolforthedogs.com/newsletter. That's probably the best way to find out when we're opening up the next round virtually or perhaps in person.
So shout out to Anna Ostroff for just generally being awesome. And for being a mentor to so many other people at this point. Including me, I've learned so much from Anna and clearly Anna Heyward has too. Our trainer Ilana Alderman, who's based in Colorado, really was sort of the original architect of the apprenticeship, our trainer Em Beauprey who's now on the West coast, he has been doing the weekly lectures. Kate Senisi has been kind of like the go-to senior trainer. It's really been an exciting group effort this round that has been virtual, but, you know, there's been some good parts, I think, to that, but there have been hands-on components too. So in this grand and wonderful game of pass it on, I cannot wait to see the impact that Anna Heyward is going to make on so many people's lives and so many more dogs through her writing and just her wonderful ways. I hope you like this episode.
**Intro**
Hi, my name is Annie Grossman and I'm a dog trainer. This podcast is brought to you by School for the Dogs, a Manhattan based facility, I own and operate along with some of the city's finest dog trainers. During this podcast, we'll be answering your questions, geeking out on animal behavior, discussing pet trends and interviewing industry experts. Welcome to School for the Dogs podcast.
Annie:
So Anna Heyward, tell me who you are a little bit.
Anna:
I am one of your apprentices at School for the Dogs.
Annie:
Tell me who you were before you came to apprentice at School for the Dogs.
Anna:
Before and also currently I am a writer and I also work in contemporary art of writing and consulting and regular dog fosterer as well.
Annie:
So you're originally from Australia, right?
Anna:
Yeah. I'm from Australia. I grew up there. I lived here for a little while when I was like when I was very, very young, but I moved back here in 2014.
Annie:
And here is New York City. Have you been fostering dogs the whole time that you've been in New York City?
Anna:
Not the whole time. I lived in kind of way with the roommates and illegal basement plumbing for a while. And so I didn't begin fostering- I always knew that having a dog in my life with kind of like part of the goal, but I didn't start fostering until 2017. When I moved into my current apartment.
Annie:
Tell me about your history with dogs. And obviously you came into my life when you applied to do our apprenticeship. And I know at that point you had already worked quite extensively with Anna. So I want to get to that, but I'd love to kind of hear about how you got interested in dogs to begin with. I mean, did you have dogs growing?
Anna:
Yeah, I did. I had dogs growing up. My dad is a big dog person. He grew up in the country and in his town, there was a guy who bred Samoyeds. And so he had like a whole string of Samoyeds named Sammy and a number of other dogs. And then, so he got us a dog. I remember very clearly we went to the pound together and he picked up a little white dog. And that was, that dog was also named Sammy.
Annie:
Oh, really? That's so funny. My dad had like four cats in a row named Gypsy, I guess it's like the thing to do.
Anna:
Yeah. I mean, I guess it's a convention. We also had a Jack Russell that he named Jack, so I think it was just he didn’t have…he wasn’t so imaginative. And Sammy was, like, she was my dog. I was obsessed with her. She died when I was 21 and she would have been 18 or so at that time. And we got her when I was five. So she was my dog. And I thought that I kind of knew how dogs worked and myself as a person who liked dogs. And…
Annie:
Did you watch Cesar Millan on TV growing up? Did you watch actually, you know, did you watch Ken Ramirez? Cause you know, he had a TV show on, in the early two thousands, only in Australia,
Anna:
No! I had o idea about that. I'll have to go back and watch it. No, I don't remember seeing any kind of dog training. I associated dog training with like circus tricks and police dogs and that kind of thing. I really didn't even know what …Sammy never got any training. The only training Sammy got was when our native complained and we hired this terrible trainer who treated Sammy's, what was probably separation anxiety or boredom or frustration with techniques that kind of make me shutter now. We used to throw short length of chain at her in a bag when she barked and we would stand over her and growl in her face and, you know, deprive her, take her food away. If she started barking, when she was approaching-that kind of thing. I mean, I knew I hated doing it, but I never really thought twice about the fact that that was what dog training was in a domestic animal context.
Annie:
And It probably didn't occur to you that there were other ways of doing it, right?
Anna:
No, I thought, I mean, I felt like that that was kind of, I didn't even really think about the fact that behavior was something that you could change through anything, but kind of like a whack-a-mole like hitting it down when it happens. You know what I mean? Like it, I just didn't think about the fact that things that Sammy did had a source that came from her experience with the world and that there might be ways to change the way she reacted to things permanently. I shudder when I think of, of elements of Sandy's life now.
Annie:
Yeah, well, that's part of the reason why you're interested in doing what you're interested in doing. I think, isn't it. Why don't we talk about how you got in like your, some of your fosters? I think that would be something people would be interested in hearing. And I guess that also kind of leads into how you found School for the Dogs. Would you say?
Anna:
Yeah, it did. Yeah.
Annie:
So tell me about maybe your first foster and how that came about.
Anna:
In New York, actually, I think it was my first real foster was Freddie who arrived, he was an eight or nine year old Italian Greyhound who had come from Harmon, rural Pennsylvania. His owner had been sent to prison and he was surrendered to a rescue and he arrived and he was an amazing dog, but I think it was the first or the second night that he was here in the apartment, he started displaying behavior that I just, I mean, I'd never seen anything like it. He had separation anxiety, that was, it was so extreme. It was not even a matter of somebody leaving the apartment, but a matter of somebody crossing the room to step away from him or stepping behind the screen door of the shower would send him into like a very, very high level of panic. And…
Annie:
Just to go back a little bit, how did he come your way? Did you reach out to a specific like rescue group saying you were interested in fostering? Were you interested in adopting?
Anna:
Yeah, I did. Well, I wanted a dog, but I'm also here on a two year working visa that I renew every two years. And so I was kinda nervous. What I really wanted to do… I love sighthounds. And so my plan was to go to New Jersey and get a Greyhound from the track, a retired Greyhound. But I decided against that because my apartment and neighborhood is just not the best place for an adult, retired racing Greyhound. So I applied to a whole range of rescues and one of them was a Sighthound rescue in Long Island and that was for Freddie came from. My plan, I guess I thought I would just do some fostering. And then that would be for kind of a casual activity that I did on the side, because I didn't feel like, it was the responsible thing to do to adopt a dog at that time.
But, you know, Freddie changed everything for me because as soon as he arrived, it was just so clear that his behavior was beyond anything that was that I, that was my level of being able to manage. We were told that he was affectionate. I think it was maybe the euphemism they used, but it was, I'm not sure I probably wouldn't have taken him if I had known what his behavior was. So I'm almost glad that I didn't know, because he was, I'm glad for the time that I got to spend with him, but it was traumatic. I mean, when somebody left the apartment, even if I was still here, he would actually begin to sort of do compulsive self-harming behaviors, like biting his own skin and, and his tail. And I mean, that was, he would escalate to that after crying, scratching, just kind of losing his mind for a little while.
And when, I mean, watching him do this as like nothing works, nothing works, nothing works. And then he would escalate, escalate, escalate, and that's when they started looking for a trainer. And looking for a trainer was a difficult thing too, because, you know, as you know, it's a very buyer beware kind of a market for dog training. And I didn't know very much at all. I started reading and I started kind of buying books about behavior and looking at clinical manuals mentioned separation anxiety and that kind of thing. So when I started looking for a trainer, I was kind of at sea a little bit, but also at the same time, I was kind of learning as much as I could about what Freddie's behavior was. And so I was learning about what separation anxiety was, you know, at the level that he showed it at the same time as looking.
So I was kind of knew a little bit about what I should be avoiding and what I should be looking for, but I didn't really know, you know, I didn't really know much about dog behavior at all. So the first few people that I spoke to were people who kind of told me that, you know, he's acting out and he's trying to get one over on you, and he's manipulating you by doing this. And because, I mean, as soon as we saw what he was doing, this was me and my boyfriend at the time, we didn't leave him alone at all, because it was too scary -he idea that he would go flip out on us when he was left alone. So we were with him all the time and all the weeks that we were looking for a trainer and these first people I spoke to that were kind of like you're weak and he can tell that you're weak and that's why he's doing all this stuff.
And again, I didn't really know much, but just looking at Freddie and looking at what he was doing it, there was no evidence that he was doing something strategically or that he even knew what he was doing or that his reaction was, you know, advantageous to him and all it, you know, except that it, it kept us around, I guess, the thing that it achieved, but it just didn't feel like he was scheming, you know…
Annie:
But that's what you were being told.
Anna:
That's what I was….Yes. Yes. And, you know, I was told like, you need to put a shock collar on him to stop his quote unquote, acting out when somebody was trying to do something that was distressing to him such as leave, leave the room or, or whatever. So, yeah. I didn't know anything, but I was kind of skeptical of that idea. And I was also, I mean, even in the reading that I was doing, I encountered what I now know is a lot of like, not very scientific stuff, but luckily I found Anna Ostroff who came over and didn't say any of that stuff about how….
Annie:
Now, how did you find School for the Dogs?
Anna:
So I live on the Chinatown Lower East Side border, and I just kind of had a list of dog trainers in New York that I was working through geographically.
Annie:
So, you actually hired a few people before us then.
Anna:
Well, we had sort of a lot of consultations, like phone conversations and consultations and email exchanges. I was asking people, kind of like what would your training plan be? And I didn't, you know, at this point I thought I was going to have to start for like a month. So I was kind of thinking like, you know, that it would be one or two sessions I might have with this person. And then I would go on to do a little bit more myself or whatever home he ended up in. So Anna came over and she didn't tell me that Freddie was an evil genius and she did some kind of really simple little exercises with him and then kind of showed me how he… what it might take for Freddie to feel okay. When I was leaving the room and he just responded so well to what she did. It was kind of… that was kind of my, my big moment in my life with dogs, I think was with meeting Anna and watching her work with Freddie for the first time, because I had never explicitly connected behavior or reactivity or kind of unintentional behavior or the ability to learn to …. emotions and to the emotions that we feel when we're kind of like going through time and choosing or not choosing what we're doing and our behaviors being expressed, I guess I maybe could have figured out that our emotional kind of experiences is that important to the behavior that comes out. But I didn't think I would have figured it out on my own. Really.
Annie:
I completely understand that. And yet I can tell, by the way you're saying it now, it seems kind of like, “Oh, like, I'm surprised that that wasn't obvious, but, and yet it seems so clear.” Do you know what I mean?
Anna:
Yes, yes, very much. Yeah. I think I kind of carried around an idea in my head, again, not explicitly that you know, tedium and suffering were kind of endemic to any learning that, that you might do and that behavior is kind of all about will and what you decide to do and how, how determined you are about doing what you decide to do. But truly I'd never really thought about it.
Annie:
Right. I also had never, never really thought about it. But, and I also, I think for me, when I got into dog training, it was just such a revelation that like learning is happening all the time and that's not just like, Oh, you know, you must have a love of learning and it's not like something you choose or don't choose it just…
Anna:
No. And especially, it's especially obvious in a dog who is not deciding this is learning time and this is not learning time or really deciding to absorb or not absorb information. The dog is just kind of like moving through doing what makes sense at any given time. And just the idea that what was being expressed in Freddie was an emotional problem and not some kind of personality problem or moral problem with really the breakthrough moment for me.
Annie:
So I guess Anna came in and waved a magic wand and told you to be more assertive… told you to get your life together. No, I mean, tell me a little bit about what Anna did when she came in, because someone might be listening to this and picturing that she came with fairy dust,
Anna:
She came in and she didn't really ask that much of Freddie at all in the beginning. And she didn't really tell me that she was going to have Freddie like running laps and doing back flips or anything like that. She just said, you know, what does he like doing? What do you think motivates him? And we kind of went through a few exercises, where Freddie was eating peanut butter while I turned my back around. And then it kind of, it was an exercise in taking a step up. And then I got to the doorway and then I got to the kitchen sink, which was around the corner side which was out of his sight, which had never happened before. And then coming back, well, Freddie was still in this moment of kind of calm enjoyment, having him just register the fact that I could walk away and come back and then things could hold together and that the world wouldn't fall apart.
Annie:
Starting from zero, right?
Anna:
Starting from zero. Yeah. And the really challenging thing was that for Freddie to improve, we had to do really, really intense management. If every single day we're going off to work, closing the door and Freddie's alone and just absolutely freaking out for hours at a time it's less, I mean, it's the little exercises we do in the morning and the evening are not going to work. So Freddie was not able to spend time alone. So we had kind of, you know, an elaborate setup of daycare and working from home and babysitters, and all these kind of these things in place to stop him from being able to access that kind of panicked place of, you know, rehearsing these feelings and staying in that kind of and the idea that the more we can keep him not being unhappy, the happier he'll be was that, I mean, that was the way that, that I started thinking after that, the time that Freddie spends unhappy, if like it says little minus sign, like score going down, time that Freddie spends happy and relaxed scores going up, plus sign plus sign plus sign, and, you know, you want to..
Annie:
Right. Like, let's keep money in the bank account rather than yeah.
Anna:
But, you know, I really, I was so excited to find that that was what I was able to do as much as it was a lot of hard work. I knew I, I just, I really didn't want to put a shock collar on him. It just, didn't just intuitively it didn't make any sense. But if I had heard that from a really credible source, and if I, you know, if events would lead me to really believe that that was the thing that I had to do, then I would have done it. You know, if I thought that that was the way to help him. So, you know, that's the kind of, that's kind of makes me sad when I hear people talking about how much they hate having to yank on the prong call or give it a little clip around the ear or whatever, because you don't, it's just, it's a pain for both for the person and the dog, but, you know, I really would have done it if I, if I thought that that was what I had to do.
Annie:
Yeah. You know, it's funny with my dog. I never had to put up, I was never in a situation where I had to use like aversive tools before I knew anything about dog training. And it's hard for me to remember though, I guess actually there was one situation where somebody wanted me to- I was staying somewhere where there was an electric fence and they wanted me to put the electric collar on my dog and like lead them through the fence so that he would understand about the fence. And I just remember thinking like, no, I'm not going to do that,
Anna:
Yeah I’ll keep him on a leash.
Annie:
Yeah it wasn't like, I didn't have the kind of stomach. Like my stomach drops now, when I think about that kind of thing, maybe because I know what it is to not consider it like, or I don't know, it didn't occur to me that there was really any other way that to deal with some dogs then to do that, or to put a prong collar. I guess I didn't think about there being options. And it sounds like you were hopeful that there were options, but you didn't, you weren't necessarily sure. What they were
Anna:
Yeah, I wasn't, I just really didn't know anything. And my stomach definitely did drop when I thought about the idea of giving him an electric shock every time he cried out or barked or like that. But it was also, I mean, if you saw this dog freaking out, you would also have it, like it wasn't subtle, this wasn't like a happy dog that you think like, Oh, you know, cruel to be kind, give him a little bit of, you know, whatever he needs. He's not going to, it's not, it's not going to kill him or whatever this. It really would have been like putting just like gasoline on a hideous, an already hideous bushfire or something like that.
Annie:
What happened to Freddie?
Anna:
Freddie stayed with us for a year. We put him through three surgeries for his cancer. And we really, I mean, I did like so much training with him and he was really, really making progress. But then my boyfriend left and said, he would only come back if Freddie was gone. And so I agreed to that and Freddie left, but when my boyfriend and I got back together, it was just, I mean, it was kind of over because sending Freddie away really, really upset me
Annie:
Having to make that choice must have been
Anna:
Yeah having to make that choice. Yeah. And then, so the deal was that we wouldn't have any more dogs, but I was so depressed that I said, yeah, I have to foster again. And I mean, that's where a whole lot of other dogs came in. And so the second time we broke up, it was also a dog with a hideous behavior problems. The truth is any, I'm really ashamed of it because it's not regarded as like a very nice thing to do to send the dog away to another home because of behavior problems. And it seems like mostly I'm just really embarrassed about it. It feels like a big failure. And…
Annie:
I'm sorry, it feels that way, but I mean, you have high standards for yourself. I think a lot of people have to make the choice between a person and a dog and come down just as you did. I mean, look at all that you did for that dog, but did he find another home in the end?
Anna:
He did. He lives in Maine moved two doctors who have different schedules, night schedule and day schedule. So he's not, he is never alone.
Annie:
And if they continue to work with him?
Anna:
As far as I know, yeah. I was like a bit timid about being really forward with the rescue about knowing what, you know, following his life without me. So I kind of tapered off and also I miss him. So it is kind of hard. Also, if he were not having a good time, I think that would be a very, extremely, not a good thing to learn about. So maybe it's best that I don't really know what's going on with him, but yeah. I mean, as far as I know, he is, his life is beautiful. I mean, New York city and especially my neighborhood and my block, it can be a tough place for a dog to live. I'm sure. Bangor, Maine, you know, next to Stephen King's estate is a beautiful home.
Annie:
So tell me about the next foster that you got after Freddie.
Anna:
After Freddie was Fannie, who came from a puppy mill raid in Mississippi, she was one of 300 a Chiweenie dogs who was rescued from this this place. The owner, I think like they had stopped turning a profit or something and had kind of abandoned the building and called the city and said, if you go to this address, it's going to be it's going to be a few dogs to pick up. And when they arrived there, it was 300 dogs in this little building.
Annie:
Crazy.
Anna:
And just because of the conditions in which puppy mills operate, Fannie had never really interacted with humans before. She'd had a ton of puppies, her nipples were like down on the ground, but she just, I mean, she stayed under the bed for 10 days. She would like, she wouldn't come out to get her to eat, I would have to put a little bowl of food, kind of two or three feet from the bed and then not just leave the room, but leave the apartment. She was so scared of human presence. It was like having a goldfish in the apartment because there was no sound, there was no… I mean a gold fish who leaves poo and pee everywhere under the bed. But it was like having no dog there, she just would not interact or even let us see her or, I mean, she was terrified of absolutely everything. And she was rescued with again 299 of her little family members and seven of them ended up at Animal Haven and you know, other rescues around the city. And I was kind of tracking her. I called a few other people who'd taken in who taken in her siblings and family members and all of them were the exact same. And two of them actually in the first week got lost because they vaulted when somebody tried to approach them with a piece of food that, you know, just escape the yard or escape the the carry bag or whatever it was.
I mean, luckily they were found. The rescue hired a pet detective. It was a whole thing and they were trapped in and they were found and they were safe now. But she now lives in Harlem with another dog who is the total opposite of her-is very outgoing and friendly and relaxed. And last video, I saw her from her adoptive parents. She was like walking around the room, like a normal dog and playbowing to her big sister and approaching the window, which I know sounds like nothing. It's what, you know, if you saw her a dog doing that in any other context, he would not think twice, but for Fannie, it was it made me get to tears. She was doing so well. She got great parents. They're really good people.
Annie:
How long did she stay with you?
Anna:
She was with me for not quite a month.
Annie:
Were there things that you've learned with Freddie that you think helped you be a better foster parent?
Anna:
No, they were so different. I mean, Fannie, it was really like just do the least amount that you can. And like, don't even look at her trying. I mean, I guess like, you know, keeping the noise down and not having people coming into the apartment, that kind of stuff helped her. But I mean, I couldn't have done any training with her because she didn't want to interact with me just leaving little bits of food and letting her just adjust at her own pace was truly the only thing that you could. I did laugh a couple of times thinking to myself like, Oh, you know, what if I called a trainer and this dog won't come near me, what do I do? And just like, the answer is put a shock collar on them. No, I didn't, I didn't hire a trainer to help it Fannie because, you know, from what I knew and I'm pretty sure I was right -there was just really nothing to do, but, but wait, she was shut down. Yeah. Just wait for Fannie to adjust it. The fact that she's, you know, she's now alone in a place other than in a little cage with 10 family members and getting pregnant a hundred times a year.
Annie:
Oh God.
Anna:
But now, she's a super happy story. She was really you know…fostering is, it can be really hard work because you're doing kind of all of the bad parts of having a dog and there’s lots of work involved and you don't really have a rapport with the dog and you will never know what you're going to get, but it's super rewarding. And also you've learned so much about behavior because, you know, there's a…among dogs in rescue. There's a much higher incidence of behavioral problems for both chicken and egg reasons. And just because of the diversity of what comes through the holes of the rescue
Annie:
And who came after Fannie
Anna:
After Fanny, there were two, there were supposed to be three, but then there were two, eight week old Border Collie, Labrador mixes who, someone in the city, some really heroic foster had whelped. The mom came in pregnant. And so the puppy at eight weeks are sent out to two different foster homes to relieve the foster who took care of the litter. And they were, I mean, they, they could not have been more different from, from sweet, unobtrusive, Fannie. They were so much work. That was kind of another, among all the dogs that I've fostered, I think the puppy they're in many ways, they're super easy cause you know what you're supposed to do and they are puppies. And even though it's work, if it's pretty straightforward and they're doing their funny stuff and they're super cute, nobody's going to get bitten and there's no kind of like angst involved, but it also, it's not my favorite kind of fostering experience either. I think I've discovered the dogs with behavioral problems or, you know, unusual behavior are the ones that I really enjoy sharing my home with. Not for masochistic reasons that, because it is really the most rewarding experience. Like puppies, they get adopted because everybody wants a puppy and you can do heaps for them because obviously it's your, especially during that early time in their life, you can really set them up for success later, but it's not the kind of work that is as interesting to me, I think, as as adult reactivity, really. So I don't think I actually, I did take other puppies after that, but not enthusiastically. And I don't think I'll do it again.
Annie:
It's really been like a job for you, a second job.
Anna:
Guess it's like a part-time job. I mean, it's more like a hobby, you know, something… a hobby and a leisure activity in a kind of a work and to see.
Annie:
I think it's easy to under appreciate how much goes into it.
Anna:
It's also, it's just extremely hard to say no to, you know, the rescue policy when it's like there’s this dog, you know, we don't know what we're really out of space. Can you do this? And sometimes the alternative is the dog goes to another home or something. But sometimes it's the dog ends up at ACC and that's right.
Annie:
New York City Animal Care Centers. Are you, do you foster mostly through ACC then?
Anna:
No, I felt so mostly through foster-exclusively based, rescues, not you know, they, a lot of the rescues will go to ACC, pull dogs out from there and then organize them their foster networks. But ACC, I mean, I know they get criticized all the time. I think pretty unfairly. It's a really, really tough job that they have to take in. I mean, they don't say no to dogs and it's just really a huge volume of animals that come through their doors and a lot of animals that come in are there because they're super challenging and they need the kind of work that is just not really available. So when someone asks, can you take this dog? Otherwise I might have to drop it up at ACC. It's really difficult to say, you know, take him out there. He'll be fine. I know he's got a huge bite history and he's missing two legs. But he'll be fine.
Annie:
And yet, do you feel like you before becoming interested in actually being a dog trainer, do you feel like you were, you had the tools to deal with some of these more serious cases?
Anna:
No, I didn't. And that was very apparent to me. It became clear to me when I was fostering this one dog, a chihuahua who attacked me pretty severely over and over again, pretty terrified. I really had learned to be worried about what was going to happen around him because he didn't give any signs when he, I mean, he did give signs. I just don't think I recognized them I don't think I was skillful enough to recognize them because he had been taught not to growl. It really made it difficult to know when his limits were being approached. And when he was feeling really, really stressed and afraid.
Annie:
Right. Which is something that I think many people it's surprising. Although again, it kind of makes sense when you think about it that like, if you scold the dog for growling, they will very likely to learn to skip the growl. Whereas growling is actually kind of a favor that they're doing to let us know…
Anna:
Growling is a really useful and great behavior. That is an excellent safety feature in the dog.. I did… I had, Michael Shiskashio who is an excellent trainer for aggression, did a session recently where I got the chance to submit a question. And I asked him, what do you do with the dog that doesn't growl? And he just said, you know, you'd have to be really, really in tune with the other signs that the dog is offering little things with body language, eyes, piloerection, that kind of thing. But that in his experience, he has dealt with dogs who've been punished for growling before. And when you treat the aggression, that is the fear emotion that you are provoking the aggressive reaction, the growling actually often comes back when the dog starts to learn, to feel more relaxed about what's happening in the environment or whatever. So he was a really meaningful part in my wanting to learn how to really train dogs properly. And, you know, because you do a lot of second guessing and thinking, could I have changed things and what did I do wrong? I know I did things wrong, obviously, but to properly know what I did wrong and if there was a way that I could have helped adjust his behavior to go back to being a dog who could live with humans in harmony, that what, that might've been, what I, what, what it would have been that I could do. So that's how I came to be your apprentice.
Annie:
Well, which brings us to a happier note, which is your current foster, are you still fostering her or are you…
Anna:
Yeah, technically. Big Girl is my apprenticeship dog. And she's another Chihuahua. Chihuahuas are dogs they correlate to aggressive behavior, unfortunately. So they do end up in rescue a ton. They do end up in foster a ton. So she's a Chihuahua. I think honestly, it's the fact that they're small and people think they're cute and approachable is one of the really big tripwires for chihuahuas having a…..
Annie:
And also people think they're small, so they don't really need a lot of training or attention. If there's an issue, you can always just kind of like, you know, overtake them. I think you're right.
Anna:
So Big Girl also is a dog with… the way I put it, as she's got a little bit of everything, she has separation anxiety. She has a long bite history of level three Dunbar scale bites. She had a lot of resource guarding issues when she arrived and she had never wore a leash or a harness and she was not toilet trained. And I think she might have some neurological problems too, but she's a great dog. She's a very manageable dog because she's super responsive to training. Her biting and her aggression to humans is not really learned. It doesn't have the same character that Jack had. She just really doesn't like unwanted handling or being surprised by touching or by humans, which is a very understandable thing. And so her aggression is 100% predictable and there's no reason that she ever needs to bite anybody ever again, you know, sweet. She's well muzzle trained. And we have protocols at the vet to make sure that everything is safe and you know, I'll never have her around children, but that's about it.
She's a dog who is obviously in conventional terms, she's not a good dog or a valuable dog, but I think she's been an amazing dog for my apprenticeship because I've been able to work on behavior problems on a pretty small scale. Like her separation anxiety is, comes and goes and kind of waves it gets better if we're working on it a lot. And it gets worse if we're not working on it a lot, but it's manageable and it's nothing. She's not a danger to herself and she's not, you know, in excruciating pain when I leave, she's just in a little bit of a heightened state and she's really responsive to working on it with the right training techniques. So I think she's a pretty inbred dog, also. She has a lot of sciences, very genetic diversity coefficient.
Annie:
So you've been doing the apprenticeship, and I know it's, it's been a little, not as everyone expected, just like everything, everything in the world right now. But if someone's listening and wanting an inside view of what our apprenticeship is, I would love if you could share a little bit about your experience as I think, you know, we've had maybe 8 or 10 apprentices come through our program right now, Anna being part of the first group and it's evolved and changed, but it's thrilling to me to see people learn to become trainers and to see people get excited about training. And I would love to hear a bit about what the experience has been like for you: the good, the bad, the high, the low.
Anna:
It's been great. It's been a really, I like you said, COVID happened right at the beginning and so it's been a really unusual experience of doing it from my home with, and just Big Girl, me and her together all day long. But right before everything shut down, I did get to do some hands-on work with clients' dogs. And that was a really kind of a significant moment for me when I went with Anna actually on a house call to one of her long-term clients. And this was a dog who had really been kind of everything had been done a hundred percent as it should be. This dog had been brought to puppy kindergarten from 9 or 10 weeks. And had been really well-trained from then on. And he was just a perfectly even-tempered dog. And when I got to work with her on just some basic stuff, I think we're working on the go to place, the go-to mat and relaxation protocol that was like, I didn't even realize that it could be like that because I realized working with that dog that I may never actually have really interacted with a non-reactive dog before there was no kind of hurdle to get over before I interact with her. And she wasn't worried about what was going to happen in the moment. And it was a quote unquote, normal dog, but it was definitely a really new and unusual experience for me. And it was exciting to kind of feel what that was like to just be able to do it kind of like, cue treat, let's go there and just have that be the rhythm that you're working in without anything else going on.
Annie:
So you had to become a dog training apprentice in order to meet a normal dog.
Anna:
Yeah, well, yeah. To really like work with a normal dog. I think so, but yeah, the apprenticeship has been fantastic because there's that kind of practical side of actually like people saying, you know, here's my dog, here's the problem, let's work on it. And as I've been shadowing senior trainers, and there's also the part, which is really my strength and my favorite, which is the theory element of it, which I love, I'm very kind of homework-oriented person and learning and reading about the principles and the mechanics of dog behavior: truth, the theory and the science has been really a pretty significant experience for me in my thinking and my writing and my life. I mean, I love being in front of the dog and working with the dog, but I don't yet feel like that's something that I'm extremely good at. I feel like it'll be awhile before I'm really adept at kind of deciding what the dog needs in the moment and having instinct about what to do. So I hope that that's something that I develop in this throughout the end of the apprenticeship and beyond.
Annie:
I think it's going to be a continually developing thing. Although what I, you know, I think when one thing that you're getting out of this apprenticeship that I feel like I never got as any kind of apprentice, which I never really got to be an apprentice, but it was like, when I started working with clients, I'd never seen any I hardly ever, no, I would say I'd never seen any other dog trainer working with clients. I guess we had dog trainers when I was a kid, but I mean, nobody who I wanted to emulate, it felt like walking onto a stage without a script or something.
Anna:
Yeah. If I hadn't had that experience of watching Anna work with Freddie, I might not have fully understood power or the transformative potential of all of the theory that I love reading and that I feel super comfortable reading. You know, I wouldn't have really known what it can actually look like. As much as like you can know the ideas behind it. It is a different thing to be able to really be able to apply them. I think at least for me,
Annie:
Has there been anything surprising to you as you've learned more about dog training through the apprenticeship?
Anna:
Oh yeah. I mean, there's been a lot of kind of tiny revelations, I guess the big surprise was that moment when I got to work with Violet was the name of the dog. She was a something doodle, like all the client's dogs. And it was just like this kind of calm, smooth experience that went exactly as you through read about it going when you read about the theory of operant conditioning and, and how the dog's supposed to respond to reinforcers and that kind of thing, there was no unpredictability about it. She was just kind of happy to be, to be reinforced. And she would work for her. She didn't head butt me when I didn't deliver the treat immediately. She didn't run away from me when I moved quickly. It was, it was kind of, it was a beautiful thing to experience, but let me try to think if there was anything else.
Annie:
Well, you know, one thing that I was thinking about from reading your writing was how easily people believe that dogs read everything from people, but also how easily people believe that people who are, if your dog has a problem, it's because you have a problem. And also if you are good with dogs and that means you're probably not good with people. I'm not really sure. I mean, you're just thinking out loud about some of the things you've said.
Anna:
No, I totally know what you mean. And I, again, it's not something I would have explicitly really thought about until I, you know, had to quickly learn about certain aspects of dog behavior to be able to kind of live with, with these problems, dogs like Jack, or like Freddie. And in a way, I kind of think it's like a sign of how much we really love our dogs and how amazing we think they are, that we're able to, to chalk their behavior up to some kind of new, clever, moral clairvoyance in what they respond to you. I mean, everybody's heard that a million times, like dog, know if you're a good person and you know, dogs know if you're scared or if you're not a leader, quote, unquote, then the dog is going to feel that. And we just have absolutely no evidence for that being, what…
Annie:
Do you think that like, the apprenticeship has helped you like deal with, or like, think about that or if somebody talks in that way at this point, do you think like the work that you're doing would help you address that with more…
Anna:
Yes, I think so. Yeah, because it, through the apprenticeship, I've learned the solid mechanics, I guess, of what the dog is responding to, which is an excellent way to realize that it's not, you know, something that's kind of like mysterious and magical and immaterial. No, it's these survival goals and these essential interests that the dog that all organisms have, that all organisms are going to be attracted to something that is safe and it's going to be work to, to get away from something that's painful or fearful. And just again, like the concept of Freddie spending time being happy, making him a happy dog, which made him a more relaxed animal to be around versus time that Freddie spent in pain and in anguish, making him a really, a much more difficult animal to live with. It's something that we kind of, we could probably know instinctively because we've had the experience of being human and we've been around other people. And it's like, you know, when your friend or your spouse is in a state of anxiety or pain, or, you know, you're not having a relaxed, happy, good time. You're not picking up… You're not going to be learning information in the same way that you are, because you're trying to protect yourself from whatever is happening, but it's just not something that would have come to me through any other way than really learning that the way that dogs actually process the world and the way that dogs learn information and regard humans, which is not, can I turn this person into my employee or my servant? It's, you know, am I safe here? And is this a good thing to approach, or is this a bad thing to approach I'm rambling now. But
Annie:
It's funny when, when I was reading what you wrote about, you know, how we assume dogs know that people are good and all that it occurred to me kind of for the first time that suggesting that they don't,seems like you're debasing them, or like, seems like you're taking them off some kind of pedestal. If, I mean, I love dogs. I think they're amazing. I don't think that they have special abilities to tell good people from bad people. And…
Anna:
Just think about if they did, if we really scientifically knew that we would not need a court system, it's like the funny little lie detective thing that you sometimes see in, in movies. Like, you know, that that's not real because if it were real, the entire world would be different. If we could really truly know who is acting honestly, and who's a good person and who is lying and who is not, but we still kind of believe it when we see it in a movie, but it's part of the plot because it's just like, it's kind of exciting to think that they might be the force in the world that is defining information like that. Like, like if this is a good person, because it's what we spend our whole lives kind of trying to get towards, you know, we're always trying to make decisions about, is this something that I should be doing? Is this person real? Is this …
Annie:
And it also, it, it suggests that there's like good and bad in the world.
Anna:
Right? Exactly, exactly. But that's somebody have a good soul or is a nice person, rather than a person who is expressing behavior and being defined by their behavior in that moment, you know, like you can be a nice person if you're behaving in a nice way. You know what I mean, character is a function of behavior rather than behavior being a function of character is really, I think something that I've learned from dogs,
Annie:
Right. And also good people can behave like assholes and vice versa
Anna:
Right? And often when, when good people behave terribly or do something terrible, it's because there is something in the environment or in the person's life that is causing one of the, you know, the three threats to our survival or three ways that we signal harm, I think pain, fear and nausea, and they're all things that we'll work really hard to avoid. And so, you know, putting the organism under the pressure of feeling pain, fear, or nausea, you're going to get behavior that's more reckless and less intentional. And basically, you know, just the kind of behaviors that we want to avoid, like aggression.
Annie:
Yeah.
Anna:
That's what brings it out.
Annie:
What I was trying to say before though, is like, if you suggest that dogs don't have the special power, it sounds like you're taking them down a notch or something where it's actually like, no, you're just saying there, they're not magical creatures.
Anna:
Right? We, you do the dog a much bigger favor and you actually, I think get a much better relationship with the dog, if you accept the dog for what it is, rather than putting it on this magical pedestal of like, you know, a little psychic wizard animal who knows what's everything that's happening and is that, you know, that's what the behavior is, you know,, he likes me because I'm a good person or whatever, instead of, you know, I've made it easy to like me because I treat him properly or whatever it is.
Annie:
Where do you see yourself going with your dog training trainer education.
Anna:
I'm not sure yet, but I'm pretty certain that I want to continue working with dogs who have problem behaviors as we call it, who have behavior that's based on fear and anxiety. And definitely whose behavior is misunderstood and is treated with counterproductive techniques by humans and understanding it, especially from a medical point of view is that's a really exciting prospect.
Annie:
Neat, well I'm excited to see where this leads you. It's been really great getting to know you.
Anna:
Yeah. School for the Dogs has been such a big part of my life with dogs, especially my kind of my life as a seriously with dogs. That sounds like a ridiculous way to put it. But you know what I mean? Like, since I really started thinking about behavior.
Annie:
I'm curious about, just from what I read, your family. What do they think of the way that you are working with dogs now? Perhaps? Cause it sounds like…
Anna:
I think they think it's kind of eccentric. They, I mean, they definitely don't understand it. My parents really are, I mean, they're kind of old school. Like my dad grew up in the country and he's got his ideas about what animals are and it's hard to change people's minds just by telling them this is what is correct and this is what the science says. And, you know, if you were going to a mechanic or a doctor, you would also want someone who is, has actually kind of maybe has a rough understanding of how animals learn, but until you really see it, I think it's difficult to expect that people are going to change their minds based only on an intellectual kind of a process, the other way that it could be done. I think if this industry were regulated and we had occupational licensing and people actually had to prove that they knew what they're doing before they call themselves a dog trainer you know, it's not really at the moment, it's enough to just kind of have great marketing and say that, you know what you're doing and then you're off and away.And it's, I think that is a thing that I think probably resulted in a lot of the unfortunate treatment that some of the animals that I fostered experienced.
But yeah, talking to my parents, it's been, I've had to realize that you can't just expect people to believe you. You have to put in a little bit of work to show them why it's worth treating the animal in a, in a way that is humane and scientific.
Annie:
Anna, it's been really great talking to you. Thank you for, thank you for taking your time. And thanks for sharing that essay. I really was. It's really beautiful. I think I woke up in the night, like thinking about it and feeling sad, but…
Well, I'm glad I sent it to you cause I was super nervous. And as you pointed out, it does have a few weak links, but ..
Annie:
Yeah. I mean, yeah, but it's, it doesn't take away from the fact that it's like beautifully written. I think there's just a little bit more, I think you shouldn't hold back. I think you should write a book.
Anna:
No, you're right. No, you're absolutely right. And I was glad to hear that from you because…
Annie:
I mean, it's not like it's a saturated market or …
Anna:
No, it's not. And I think of the good that can come out of people understanding, cause it's, you know, listing facts doesn't change people's minds necessarily. I mean very rarely, but if you can show people the animal’s experience, people love dogs and they hate to think of their suffering. And if they knew, I think what it meant to train with compulsion and the damage that it can do. I think people are hopefully if a lot of people read that it will save a lot of dogs from getting smacked and shocked and pronged.
