22 OctEpisode 86 | BONUS EPISODE Q and A! 10/15/2020
In this episode, Annie talks about her epically bad day. She describes how a teenager has trained people to stop leaving her voicemails.
She talks to Joan, a Manhattan woman who has MS and an out-of-control adolescent shepherd in downtown Manhattan. She wants the dog to be a service dog, and also wants to breed him. She also talks to her longtime friend, New York Times columnist Ronda Kaysen, about her recent search for a non-shedding puppy.
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Transcript:
Annie:
Hey everyone. This is a bonus Q and A episode. I try and answer questions live every Thursday. You can sign up to come to my free live Q and A at schoolforthedogs.com/qanda, and you will see the next one I'm doing. I then am trying to take recordings of those Q and A's and post them here to the podcast feed. If you have a question, you can email me directly annie@schoolforthedogs. You can also go to anchor.fm/dogs and record your question there. Thanks for being here.
I was going to wear sunglasses for this episode, but I think I can't see properly.
Hey Yolanda, nice to see you and Joan is here. Hi, Joan. I just, I need a second to recover. It's been a bad day. I would say this has been a really bad… first of all, well second of all, second of all, I just posted a podcast episode, like just bonus…well bonus sounds like it should be like a nice cherry thing. It didn't feel like a nice cheery thing, but anyway, but I felt like I needed to post this episode. And as I posted it, like the microphone has like a little thing on it ….. Anyway as I… it’s actually, the second part is funny. The second part is right as I posted this episode, just now I like spilled an entire bottle of seltzer on my laptop.
Like not a little bit, like the entire bottle of water just went over on my laptop. Fortunately, I have like a desktop PC, so I have a computer, but it was like, anyway. And the first thing that happened today, which was much worse, thing is I just learned that my dog is dying. It was like that phone call that you don't ever want to get. Well, I got that call this morning where that said that he has something in his liver that's inoperable most likely. I mean, I guess I could get a second opinion, but it sounds like, sounds like this is probably it. And he's been in really good health up until pretty recently when a couple things started to seem off. He's 15 and a half-yesterday was his 15 and a half birthday. And you know, they don't live forever.
It's just just processing. He's doing really well, he's doing pretty well. We're going to give him something to help his appetite, but he's been his perky self, mostly. My daughters and him are so sweet together and I'm really glad that like she had the experience of having him as a dog, even though she probably won't remember it, but like, he's just been such an important part of my life for so long. And obviously now I have her and it's different, but I'm glad that they had a little bit of overlap in my life.
Anyway. I'm… that's the thing about having a pet it's like, you know, this thing is like, in your future with this, in this relationship, it just had the…
Hey, Ronda.
Amos was diagnosed with what seems like probably most likely inoperable cancer. And he has, I don't know. I mean, he's doing fine, but he's, you know, this is the end of our story together. I just found out.
Anyway. Yeah, I posted a podcast episode just before doing this because I felt like I needed to like put it out there in some way. Anyway, I'm still just trying to go on with my day and enjoy him. I'm going to position him so he's at least in the picture, but I’d love to talk to you guys. This is why I was going to wear sunglasses, but my secret's out. My eyes get very, very, I think particularly like swollen and pink when I'm crying. I like to think it's one of the more charming things about me.
Oh, the other thing that happened, Ronda, that you missed.. Ronda, by the way, I asked Ronda to be here. She is one of my oldest best friends and is getting a puppy this weekend after a lot of back and forth thinking about what dog to get. And I know she has some questions and any way. I was hoping maybe she and I could, could chat about some of the stuff that she has been going through. She is a rather famous journalist. You might know her as Ronda Kaysen of the New York Times. We met when we both worked at the New York Observer in the early 2000s. So Ronda, I'm glad you guys are here and I think Joan is here too and wanted to ask a question. I might take Joan's question first. I'm going to put Amos on the bed so that he's right there. And oh, the other thing that happened, Ronda was I spilled water all over my computer, like just minutes ago, just like completely doused my entire Macbook, whatever situation. Just like it was being baptized. Like you have no idea how much water got on this computer. Okay. Give me one second.
Amos, your presence is wanted on screen. That's my guy, my guy. All right.
You want to sit on the bed on the bed?
The Prince is in his place now. All right.
So yeah, it goes down in the book of bad, memorably, bad days.
Joan, let's see. I think if I accept you-if you join and I accept you, then you have to like rejoin. I think, I think so. I just invited Joan.
Let's see if I can get her in here, but anyway, this is supposed to be a Q and A- ask me your questions, Joan, while I'm waiting for you here.
I also want to, I want to share one other funny thing. I didn't share this in the podcast. I just put up there just like, there were just like a few really funny things that happen in a row. And then this like terrible thing happened today. But the previous funny thing to before the laptop situation was I called one of our babysitters, who's a wonderful 16 year old actress named Martina who lives nearby. And she and her sister both babysit Magnolia. So I called her to, cause I was trying to figure out…she had taken Magnolia for walk. I was trying to find out where they were. I normally text her, but I picked up the phone and you know, they say like, kids don't know how to use phones as like a medium anymore. And also, which, I mean, I don't know if they say… I could say that's probably true, but also like kids, I mean, nobody likes leaving voicemails. So it occurred to me like Martin, I think, I feel like that's, I don't love leading voicemails, but I do. But voicemails are… I don't love listening to voicemails. Voicemails- I used to be excited when I came home and there was like a beeping you know, light on my answering machine. Like, Ooh, I have a message. And now I seeI have a voicemail and I’m like “meh.” I don't know why that changed.
Anyway. Martina I'm guessing does not check her voicemail very much. She probably does not get very many voicemails. She has certainly actively punished me for calling and attempting to leave her a voicemail. I don't think I will ever do it again, except for right this second. Cause I'm gonna play you her voicemail. Cause it's so punishing that I actually need to share it.
Annie speaking to Martina on the phone:
Oh, Oh, Hey Martina. Can I, can I listen to your voicemail again?
Martina:
Yeah. Yeah
Annie:
Right. I'm going to call you back.
I think she’ll think this is funny. I'm going to tell her that I did this but if she doesn't think it's funny I won’t share it.
And meanwhile, I did this partially so that I could let Yolanda back in. I mean, not Yolanda, Joan. So Joan, if you're here and I invited you to speak, you’ve got to do it from like a computer. You can't do it from your phone and the room I think will kick you out and then kind of like invite you back in or else you can just put your question in chat. Okay. Here's her voicemail.
Martina’s voicemail playing from the phone:
Hello. Welcome to the amazing world of Martin-ahhhhh. Okay. So you may be wondering what's going on right now. This is the voicemail of Martina. I am the voice of Martina. I am the mind of Martina. I hold everything containing Martina. So that said, I would just like to say this, this is cool, right? Because you don't really know if I purposely didn't answer my phone to talk to you or if I would just wasn’t near my phone so I just couldn't answer your call. Well, see, ladies and gentlemen, these are questions that may never be answered, even if you ask me, because if you do, I will change my voicemail to something like, “hello, this is Martina, please leave a message.” But yeah, I feel like this is a really bad situation for if someone was dying right now. Like if they're suddenly being murdered by bears and they want to call me for some reason, which is why we would they have a phone on them if they're getting attacked by bears, you know, my voicemail is so long, so they probably just hang up and call someone else. But their voicemail would also probably, like those weird ones where they think they are talking to you, but it's actually their voicemail and they trick you. Gosh people are so weird. Okay. It's not that you want. I'm probably gonna change this later, but it's too hard. Yeah. Okay, bye. Please leave me a message.
Annie:
Laughing
I don't know. Did you guys hear that? Could you hear that? All right,
John, I invited you to speak, but maybe it didn't allow you in, or maybe I'm just not using this correctly to invite Joan.
Joan says:
As my husband and I have a seven month old Australian shepherd. We had training that was money down the drain, unfortunately. I have multiple sclerosis and I need Rocky Jay to go with me to my appointments. Have you ever trained service dogs?
Joan, it's knocking you off, I think, and then it's going to cue you to like, I mean, try and get you to join again as like a presenter. But make sure you're not doing it from your phone. We are working to get it now, Joan says.
I don't know, you're working to get it now. Okay. Well, let's keep trying to talk or, you know, if you want Joan, you could just call me and we can talk that way.
Joan, I'm going to invite as presenter it says. There you are. We are on the computer system. Okay. I've invited you as a presenter.
I do not know a lot about training service dogs. I do think with a puppy, you need to focus on the socialization. I'm always like I've been, I feel like I've been punished for talking about service dogs in my career. Like to the point where I don't even know if I want to talk about talking about service dogs.
I basically wrote, I wrote a blog post five or six years ago where I was trying to make the point that people lie about their dogs being service dogs. I think part of the time out of ignorance, part of the time, because they just need to get their dog from Point A to Point B and saying that the dog is a service dog, seems like a shortcut. I think there are like any number of reasons why people lie about it. And I admitted that there have been times when I've lied.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make when I wrote this article was that there's a lot of misinformation about service dogs, but really like, ideally, we should be training all dogs who are going to be out and about in our world to be like the best dog citizens possible rather than having like some people like fake disabilities rather than focusing on like the dog's ability. They're like faking their own disability rather than we're saying that they have a disability, which is like, you know, there's a lot of gray areas. There are certainly like legit service dog out there. But then there are also people who just like have a well-trained dog and they need their dog to go somewhere with them. And, you know, I've been guilty.
Like, you know, what I've done a lot is like had my dog in a backpack in the post office. And you know, I used to…it's too much to get into, but anyway, there's a lot of anger…there was a lot of anger from the dog training, dog service dog training community. To me, it was like, and it was like super personal and scary. And they were like calling my house and saying like, I hope your dog dies a miserable death. And I realized afterwards that what I had written came across as like a recipe for like how to cheat the system, which was not what I intended at all, like my intention of the article was saying, like, why don't we work towards all dogs being better trained so that like they're generally more accepted or that are working to train people to know that their dog can, should, or shouldn't be in X, Y or Z situation.
And then, you know, there should be like the elite dogs were actually trained to provide a service for the person that they're with, which is the point of a service dog. I was kind of saying like, I wish there were some other like grade, I mean, some sort of like zone, some sort of thing that be, I guess, like there's Canine Good Citizen, but something more than that, that people could you know, use as a shortcut to let others know like, Hey, I'm actually a responsible dog owner, like I've trained this dog to be in lots of different situations, XYZ.
So I guess that's my like really long way of saying, Joan, I'm sorry. I know you're still trying to get in. Joan, I'm gonna message you via email my phone number here and just give me a call or do FaceTime or whatever. My face is in a particularly bad spot for FaceTiming right now.
Okay. Go check your email.
That's my long way of saying, I don't know a lot about training service dogs. I think if you have a dog who is seven months old, the main thing you should be focusing on is socializing him to new places, new environments, making sure that like, you know, he is comfortable in every possible situation and doing so in a really thoughtful way, you know.
I'm always saying, you know, we think about dog training as something that like someone comes in and does to your dog, but really it's so much of it is about, you know, before you ever get to that point is just teaching your dog to like feel comfortable in the world. And once you have that built that foundation, that foundation where your dog feels like, you know, h, good things happen when, whenever I'm with Joan, whenever I'm in any, any, you know, these new places the better sort of foundation you're laying for, like the house that you'll be building when you start teaching more specific things.
So, you know, that's why, you know, the direction that we went in with, like our self-paced online courses. Like we have a course, that's about like, you know, you can teach these specific behaviors, but then I also did this course that's called the Good Dog Training course, which is like the, I guess like flagship course or whatever. And it's a few hours to get through.
Ronda, You did it. But the idea was… phone ringing
Annie speaking on phone to Joan:
Hi, is this Joan? How are you?
Joan:
I’m Joan and here is John,my husband.
Annie:
Oh, Hey.
Joan:
And Rocky Jay- do you see him?
Annie:
Ahh, hi, he’s so cute.
Joan:
We're so sorry to hear about Amos.
Annie:
Oh. Thank you. Yeah, it's pretty. Yeah. Just those moments in life that you hope never come and then they come, right?
Joan:
Yes. thank you so much for taking my… for helping us. .
Annie:
Tell me what's going on.
Joan:
We are, we are overwhelmed to say the least. To give you a quick synopsis. I have been hospitalized back since 2011, just got out 2018. I've had dogs before in excess of 10 years. And I thought that, you know, we could get a… was a rescue, but unfortunately with COVID they were completely out. So my husband surprised me with getting a purebred, which is Rocky, Rocky Jay. And he is, oh my Lord. When we first got him, ‘ause I told them, I didn't know anything about an Australian shepherd, that breed. And when I was asking questions, they told me that, Oh, he's going to be more docile than a German shepherd. They lied, Oh my God, it's like we have Rocky, it’s like we're in his world. We're just a part of whatever Rocky does.
So he's biting from furniture. He's ripping things up. The previous trainer in, I'm not trying to be negative towards the trainer. He didn't do what he said he’d do as far as the obedience training and…
Annie:
Where are you located, Joan?
Joan:
We're in Lower East side.
Annie:
Oh, you're in Manhattan.
Joan:
Yes. Oh yeah. I'm from California, but I was brought here for NYU Langone hospital.
Annie:
Oh gosh. Okay.
Joan:
But I'm here to stay and we are literally, I've been up all night and I know about your the bad news. Unfortunately, I had to leave my other puppy behind as we had him, oh goodness since 2014. And we were supposed to be going back to see him… my family has been turned completely upside down because of my hospitalization and I wanted to see him so badly. But COVID, it's just too much
Annie:
How long have you had this puppy?
Joan:
We've had him since May of this year. And we have spent in excess of what $15,000
Annie:
On what, training?
Joan:
With well, the training part was only $600, but with medical bills we're going and getting things ‘cause he's torn our home apart and we’re replacing things. I'm like, my husband's going to end up divorcing me because he has literally, if you saw this home, our… everything's turned upside down literally and we're just needing so much help just for him to…
Annie:
Can I ask what trainer you worked with or what kind of stuff you were doing?
Joan:
The trainer we worked with and again, nope disrespect. His name is Sam.He's supposed to be training like military train and that's how my German shepherd was trained before. Extremely…
Annie:
Well what did they have you, what did they have you doing or what did they say they thought would work?
Joan:
Walk on leash, off leash, listen to your command. When you say “sit”, which I had already taught him the basics, but he said that he would be able to stay, roam around the home without me having to kennel, put him in the kennel. He would not bite our furniture or eat or chew our furniture any longer or take our shoes or just jump on our beds, jump on us, bite us, nip us. God in heaven, the list goes on. And being able to walk off leash outside. When my husband takes him out because of the fact that I, my gait is off and I'm not able to go out a whole lot as well as the temperatures, if it's too hot, then unfortunately that will send me back to the hospital.
Annie:
I mean a few kind of broad suggestions. I don't think this is about like throwing money at the situation to find the perfect trainer or whatever, perfect daycare. I think this is like an issue where first of all, it sounds like there just needs to be some management like of the space and also of like his energy, you know, figuring out like how you can help get his energy out in an inappropriate way within confines of your life and your home. And like, frankly, that seems like it might be a really big ask because like you're,saying you're in and out of the hospital.
Joan:
No, excuse me. With COVID I've been home bound, but they need me to come back in November because I've been home. And I can't, I have to be isolation just because of the high risk..
AnnieL
So you’ve been working from home.
Annie:
I haven't been working. I've been disabled. Unfortunately, my husband is frontline and literally after he gets off his shifts with his patients, then he's coming home and before he could close out all of whatever he's doing with work, he takes Rocky out for about two or three hours to just run and go to the dog park and just get that energy out and then come home. And it was working. But lately, I don't know if it's because we unfortunately have dealt with a lot of deaths just last week from COVID and it's a bit hard.
Annie
So I'm sorry. What a year! Here. Listen. I mean, I don't know a hundred percent about your situation, but it sounds to me like you need to do some like space management and making sure that, you know, he's getting enough exercise, that he's also getting enough time with other dogs. Like he's still a young dog. He probably still needs to be playing with other dogs. You know, if you're in the Lower East side, if your husband can bring him, we have School Yard, which is like our off-leash, dog time. If there's a trainer there always we monitor the play, we curate the groups. I think it's like, you know, a really great way for dogs to get their energy out. It's much more controlled health wise than you're gonna get at a dog park because it's like, you know, it's only our members. So I mean not to plug our services, but to plug our services, I would say you know, I would suggest doing a private…yep. Go ahead.
Joan:
Excuse me. Not to cut you off, Annie. Our vet, Dr. Fish, at Clinton veterinarian is the one who told us about you. And we were looking at, in fact you're intense…, do you still do, I think it's four-six weeks. If I'm not mistaken, it was on your site, like for three hours a day for six weeks.
Annie:
Yeah. You know, I don't want to like get in the particulars right here about like what we could offer until you do a private session, which I would say you should do. I, you know, ideally in person, you could do it virtual. If your husband wants to come in, you know, we're, we're doing masked sessions. Probably be a two hour session with one of our trainers. But I mean, those are the three things I would suggest sign up for our school yard. Well, I guess, are you feeling, what are you feeding him?
Joan:
We're a Purina, …is what we were told to..
Annie:
I would say, to get him a better food. For sure.
Joan:
Thank you, I thought so
Annie:
I did a podcast episode with the woman who runs truthaboutpetfood.com. And now I only want to get like things that are on her list. I think she puts out a list. You can buy it for like $25 or something. And she's really researched which brands, I mean, especially saying this now with the dog with cancer, like don't give them the Purina. I think, I mean, I think if you, if you're traveling and he needs to have it once in a while, but I think, you know, that stuff can build up in their system and it can be not good and dog food isn't all the same. So listen to that podcast episode, if you haven't, because like I learned so much talking to her.
Also feed him in toys if you're not already doing that, like you need to be doing everything you can to like focus his attention onto appropriate things.
If we have a ton of toys at our studio, we have the online store. Our specialty is like work to eat toys, puzzle toys, that kind of thing. You know, don't think about like these are treats and this is food. Like just, he can have the, I mean, that's the other thing is like focus on like giving him his food in a way that's gonna like help encourage behaviors that you want, you know, like how can you use his regular meal? I mean, and actually if you're going to use kibble, although I'd probably pick a better kibble, that's one place where you could use like a Treat and Train, I'm a big fan of Treat and Train. So they're like a remote controlled device, that, and if you, you know, considering that you have mobility issues, that could be a way to work with him.
I think it's great that you're getting him as much exercise as you, as you are getting him. I just think we should like maybe tweak that exercise so it's more social. And also getting him some like mental mouth exercises in the form of toys, And focus, don't focus so much right now on like, I need him to be a service dog for me. Like I said, like I think there's time for that..right now, you need to like have a dog that you can live with at all. And you know, you, like Yolanda said in the comments here in the webinar, like aussies are a challenging breed. You know, you've got work to do. I think it can be done in a New York city apartment.
And you can also, you know, so much of what we do at School for the Dogs is like training, fun stuff, like training stuff you can do in small spaces because you know, when you have like a working breed dog or sporting up like a dog, who's like meant to be out on, you know, five hour hikes every day, chasing, chasing the foxes or whatever herding the sheep. Like we need to, you know, our, our goal is to like help you figure out what you can do in order to channel his energy into things that are appropriate to do in an apartment.
Do you use a crate with him?
Joan:
I'm sorry?
Annie:
Do you use a crate with him?
Joan:
We have a kennel Yes. And just to let you know that my husband does take them out to the dog park. He does have friends. He is not spayed. And Lord have mercy. We found out that he's a bit of a stalker with the female. There's one female dog specifically that he stalks. And the doctor said that we're going to have to watch out because he, when his energy level higher, he’s started to run.
Annie:
I would get them fixed. I think the dog parks fine. You probably shouldn't be bringing him to the dog park if he's not fixed in my opinion. And I would get him fixed it also, you know, it could affect his behavior in a good way. I mean, it might not, but I think there's no reason for him to, I mean, considering all the things you're describing and your situation, I don't think it's a great idea to have an unneutered dog, if anything, on the streets of New York city where there's just like, there's just too many variables. Like I'm trying to like figure out how we can like make your life with this dog simpler. And that's certainly one thing I would do.
And yeah, I mean, the dog park can be great, especially if like your husband's like coordinating, who knows who else is going to be there. Like the benefit of like the School Yard is that well,again, it's like a closed sort of community. So we, which at this point in time, I think is a good thing. But also like but more than that, like we have someone who's in charge and I think that makes such a difference. Like I wish every dog park had like a lifeguard or something, because like when I'm at the dog park and I see stuff happening that shit that I think really shouldn't be happening, that is not in the best interest of the dogs. Like nobody wants to hear from like random old me in the dog park, no one wants to.. But at our studio we have, you know, , it's like a great thing to have someone in charge who can, who can help explain when things are okay and aren't okay ad make sure everybody's like that every dog’s safety and like happiness is the priority, which I think, and I don't think that's necessarily…like, some people want to go to the dog park.
I think that I'm just speaking like incredibly broadly. I know nothing about your dog or your situation, but I think that, like, for instance, like there are people who want to go the dog park, cause they want to be in the park, you know, like they want to go out and are not necessarily like focused on whether it's the right thing for their dog.
But I've been also, I mean, to be totally honest, I've been, I also did a podcast recently about rehoming dogs and I've been feeling like sometimes it's, again, I don't really know that much about your situation. We've only just talked for a few minutes, but I am a big believer in like, if you can find a better situation where that dog is gonna lead a happier life and some other family is going to be okay,
Joan:
Actually, no, no, no. Just to let you know, we're going to be moving in another area in probably Battery Park City, but we were even thinking like getting a second dog and having them to breed one time and then keep the puppies with are various family members and friends we would be giving as a gift to. And then after that point then neutering our Rocky, both of them together, if that makes sense. And at the same time I am walking now where the doctors told me that I would never walk again. Cause I, my goal is to be able to return back and to run the New York marathon. That's when I fell ill. I started back in 2011. So now I am walking and I wanted to be able to walk with Rocky. He is doing well. We just need him to be more like calmer and….
Annie:
Yeah, well I think we let's set up a time for you to do a session. I mean, again, my candid response is that I would work on Rocky before you get another dog. I would suggest neutering him. And if, and I would, I would advise against breeding him and having a non spayed, you know, female and a non neutered male in Battery Park City for a lot of reasons. I also think like I would justI generally discourage people from breeding dogs themselves just because I think it's like something we should leave to professionals who are doing it really right. Like you know, I I think doing genetic testing is really important. And there are a lot of other factors as well. Like it's, I'd rather I personally would rather leave breeding to like the elite few who like devote their lives to it then have it be something that like I'm trying out.. I know saying like, Hey, don't let your puppy have puppies might not be like the thing that you don't want me to want to hear, but that's, again, this is like my shooting from the hip advice to you. You know, having not talked to you before, but…
So I suggest working on, you know, getting him through his, like this adolescent period, make the dog like help do put in the work now to like, make him an awesome companion for you, the dog going to be able to live here or Battery Park City or wherever. But you know, this is the moment like, like he's not even a year old, like this is the moment where you need to be focusing on his socialization, his ability to like exist in the world as a happy dog. And like I don't…I think that probably a second dog is not the recipe….
Joan:
Wait and sorry. Excuse me. No, not now after he is, he has to be thoroughly completely trained.
Annie:
Well, I also, but I also think that, you know, training is not like he's going to be trained and then he's trained, you know, it's like a continuous thing, but I also think you know, I would neuter him for, you know, some of the reasons we went over, but let's, let's chat offline and let's set you up for a private session. If you want to do the Good Dog Training course, I think he probably gets something out of it. That you can get there at schoolforthedog.com/courses. You can get through it and probably, you know, an afternoon and and yeah, I mean, if I think it might just help you, like, think about dog training in a slightly different way. It's not like a place where you're going to find like the ex exercises, but you're going to find sort of like a broader way of thinking about it.
All right. I think I have Anna says I survived seven month old Husky so I can relate.
Yeah. I mean, you have your hands full and I wasn't saying like, you should find another home for your dog at all. I'm just saying like, if you did make that choice, like, I wouldn't judge you. I would just think like, okay, that was maybe not the right choice for this family and this situation, et cetera, et cetera. Rather than you trying to like, you know, turn your life into a pretzel in order to accommodate what sounds like he's just like a young, healthy, probably normal dog. And you just want to make sure he's getting like, you know, getting trained in such a way that he's going to be able to be the companion to you that you want.
Joan:
No, Rocky Jay is stuck with us. We're going through with him. He acts out, we have to act out right along with them. So we're learning together.
Annie:
Right? Well, let's, let's get in touch off, off of here and I'm glad you, I'm glad you're here. Thank you.
Joan:
You're welcome. Should I just wait for your call?
Annie:
Yeah, I'll email you. Okay.
Joan:
Thank you so much in my prayers are with you.
Annie:
Thanks. All right, bye. Take care,
Annie:
Ronda. Did you want to chat? Are you still here? My eyes are looking better now. My dog is still adorable. Hey, buddy, I love him so much. Oh, okay. Someone's speaking. Let's see if this works.
Ronda, are you here?
I mean, any tips on getting through the death of a pet? I've done it before. Most recently, my cat Sylvia.
Ronda;
Hey, I am back, I think.
Annie:
Hey
Ronda:
Okay. Now I feel like I Amos. I met Amos Amos when he was like…, remember when you went and you dressed up as like Dorothy and Amos was Toto.
Annie:
Yeah, I have that photo somewhere. That was a few months after I got him. I mean, he’s just been such a part of my life for like, since I was 25, you know, it's intense. And I feel like..
Ronda:
Amos has been through so many things, like all the temporary apartment and like being there. I know, I can't imagine like an Annie without an Amos.
Annie:
I'm sorry. Yeah. Well, you know, I feel lucky to have had so many years with him and like lucky to have to be like that, you know, that he and Magnolia, that's such a sweet relationship.
Ronda:
I know He's so good with her.
Annie:
And that like, it's been her first experience of like loving a dog. And I also feel glad that I have this, you know, family with Jason or like, you know, it was just the two of us for so long. Just you know would've just been wrecked without him, you know, like funny, I think about, you know, it was just the two of us for God. Like, well, Sylvia also Sylvia,
Ronda:
I know I was just talking to Damon actually. Like, this morning or last night we were talking about the dog training and I was like, kind of like going down the rabbit hole that I'd be going down. And then I was like, well, we're just going to do whatever Annie tells us to do, because Amos is so nice and we love him so much. And so whatever Annie tells me to do, we'll do it because I have never had a dog, but like, no, but we love him. And then I was, I don't know, I was like, Amos is always so happy when I come over, but I was like, but then he knew me as a puppy. So maybe like I have fooled, but he's just, I mean, he’s the best doggy, he's such a little doll. He's such a good role model.
Annie:
Hold on. I need to pick them up again.
Ronda:
Okay.
How's he feeling? Sorry. Does he feel sick? Like does he have symptoms
Annie:
No and his appetite hasn’t been good. But, and he's had some bad.., but overall he's really seemed okay. He's just, he seemed in the last, you know, few months, like, he's just got a lot older. Of course now I'm like, should've brought him to the vet sooner and like, I should've been worried sooner, but it just seemed like you know, I was chalking things up to like a degree of like old man-ness and a 15 year old dog, you know?
Ronda:
Yeah.
Annie:
And but I finally brought him in because he had like some blood in his stool and kind of off and on. And and also his appetite had just really been, has really been dwindling and he's always been a voracious eater, but anyway, I think, you know, to bring it, bring it back to you and you getting a puppy and me now as a dog trainer.
Ronda:
I know what a long journey. From like the Observer and doing stories about — and Madison Avenue.
Annie:
I know,, it's funny cause it's like I had this like whole other life before I became a dog trainer that like feels kind of like,
Ronda:
I don't know if you guys know, but she wrote like two books. Annie has.
Annie:
I wrote a lot of articles, a lot of articles about weddings.
Anyway. Anyway what was I saying? I think, I think one thing that I did right by with Amos, even before I did things,…I did wrong things with him. You know, I like pushed him down to the ground and yelled in his face. And I mean, I did things that to me are now like, so freaking ridiculous. Let him cry in his crate when he was a puppy, until he barked till he, you know, pooped himself. II brought him to this training class where the woman would walk around and like squirt the dogs with water bottles, just for like no good reason. And this other dog kept like pouncing on him. And I remembered he was little and the other dog was like big and remember her being like, oh, he's thinks that Amos is a squeaky toy, like, it was a funny thing, which now looking back like it totally wasn't funny.
Anyway. I just think that I… but I always brought him everywhere. Yeah. When he was a puppy, but also, you know, throughout his life. And I think I said even before I was like studying to become a dog trainer, I was doing the thing, I just by, you know, luck or instinct of like looking at socialization as like a lifelong process. And like, I want this dog to feel good about me and want this dog to feel good about me and all these different situations. I want the dog to feel good about other people. I want a dog to feel good about being on a train and a plane and like, know that, like it benefited me to have a dog who was happy to be with me and, and could be with me and it benefited him because it meant that like, he could go more places with me and just be with me more.
Ronda:
He’s also a nice little transportable size.
Annie:
Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think there's like a real benefit to getting small dogs for that reason is it's like, it's especially, you know, if you don't have a car, like to be able to, I mean, the fact that he's been able to travel in a backpack, like he's, I've been able to bring them like all over the world, you know? Yeah. And and I mean, we spent three summers in Italy and Greece together.
Ronda:
He’s had a really good life.
Annie:
And yeah, we lived in San Francisco together when I was…
Ronda:
Oh right, I forgot about that.
Annie:
Oh my God. Anyway, I will get through this, but it sure is, you know, that feeling that, like that phone call from the vet that like you dread getting, you know, the whole time you have an animal, got that call today. Anyway, I'm still still processing.
But why don't you tell the… with your journalism background, I challenge you, your journalism background and current ground. I challenge you to say in a concise way, the story of you getting a dog.
Ronda:
I think that the best person to tell the story actually is my 13 year old son who's was in the room and then just left. But so my children have…
Annie:
Tell him to come back…
Ronda:
Theo come here. Okay, here he comes. He'll tell you, let him, you he's so good at it. But so this has been how many years, Theo, okay, come, you can join this call. Let me see if we can do this without the headphones and see if it works. You can tell this is a little webinar to the other people here. Theo come close, He's sitting lower. He's taller. He's not quite as short as Theo
Annie:
Say hi to Theo, I knew him when he was in his mommy's belly
Ronda:
I am going to try and take the headphones off..
Annie:
I helped her pick his name-kinda.
No working. Ronda,
Ronda, you put one air pod for you and one for him.
All right, we've lost Ronda. Guys. If you're here, please say hi to Theo and, and give me any tips on how to get over the broken heart one experiences when one finds out one's dog is going to die.
Ronda, I still don't hear you, Ronda. You want to just, you want to just call me? I'm just going to call Ronda.
Yeah. You screwed it up, but I can hear you now. So talk this way.
Ronda:
Okay. Sorry everybody. So okay.
So we wanted a dog. My son wanted a dog. My kids wanted one for years. And I did not. I've never owned a dog. My mom's allergic. I was always really afraid of dogs. Like not afraid of like, they don't make me nervous, but just afraid of like the idea of being a dog owner because they seem to me really like foreign, hold on. I gotta take this.
Annie:
Did we lose Theo?
Ronda:
What is happening with my speakers? Do you want me to call? I'm sorry can we go back and reconnect me?
Annie:
Sure.
Uhhh, technology! Thanks to those of you who are still here. Oh my God. I have a hair that's meant for radio right now.
Ronda girl, Ronda Rox has joined the room.
Ronda:
Sorry.
Annie:
There she is. I hear you.
Ronda:
Am I better? Sorry, everybody. I didn't mean to cause a technical catastrophe. I apologize.
So as I was saying, my kids really want to a dog as people do. I grew up without any pets. My mother was allergic to fur and feathers. So I had a lot of anxiety just about the idea of wanting a dog. They were like very foreign to me as somebody who never had one. So I have, like, my experience with dogs was always just like Amos was probably the only dog that ever really liked. Like other dogs, like, I made me nervous, big dogs, made me nervous. I didn't really know what to do with dogs. So I just kind of hunted for years and years. And then the pandemic happened, the kids were really dialing up the pressure. In the beginning of the pandemic, it felt to me like just too much, like there was just, it was too difficult to bring a dog into our family.
And then by summer, you know, when it became clear that things were opening up, we'd be able to sort of do things again, somewhat, but it felt like it was clear that this was going to go on for a very long time. I just could just see the loneliness in my kids, especially my son, the one who came in, who really wanted the dog. And I just started to feel like this was something they really needed and that it just became clearer to me. Like we needed this happy energy and I understand like they're a big lifetime commitment and I don't do things lightly. You know, like, having had two kids. I know what it means when someone says something's a lot of work. So I felt also early on that the pressure was gonna all fall on me, but then my husband's been home indefinitely working from home and he's been more able to participate.
And so I felt like, okay, we can actually share this. You know, maybe there is a place for this. So we started looking for a dog and I was consulting Annie. So there was like …., Annie was like, get a rescue. But as the woman earlier, when Joan said, like, there weren't that many rescues to be found. And also I really wanted something that was a low shedding breed to reduce the allergens because my son is allergic to cats and my mother's allergic to everything. And I thought, well, if I can just have at least a low shedding breed might reduce how many allergens are in the house, even if that's not true. And there was also a bit of politics in that. Like if I get a dog and my mother's mad at me, at least I said, I try. And so we …
Annie:
So that's what was interesting. I mean, not interesting, but I think what makes you probably quite relatable to a lot of people is that you, that you felt like you had to get a dog that wasn't going to shed. Like, I feel like a lot of people, or, you know, like the allergy thing, like, I feel like a lot of people would go get a rescue dog, but that is like, that is the thing that stops them.
Ronda:
Is the shedding? Yes. And then the other thing is like, even if there were no allergies, I'm kind of a neat freak. Not to plug myself, but I wrote a book called Right at Home: about how to care for your home. So I'm like, kind of like, that's my whole specialty is like your home being a tidy place. Not that my house is like, looks like a page out of Dwell magazine by a long shot, but I'm like a big fan of like tidiness and throw pillows are like a big deal in my life. And, you know, so I was like really possessive of my house looking nice. And like, I can't, like when I go to someone's house and my feet are covered with dog hair, I just am like, so I just like, couldn't like, you know, I just was like, that was a part of, it was also like I had this element of like, it would be nice if the dog looked like the look of the house. I mean, so it was terrible, but like shallow and shallow could be.
Annie:
Well you know, I think that, you know, evolution is a funny thing, right? Like these low shedding or non, you know, I don't think there's really non-shedding dogs, but these low shedding dogs with hair, rather than fur et cetera, et cetera, are evolutionarily getting a leg up because we live in these small spaces with our, you know, tidy homes.
Ronda:
Right. And then, so then our, my daughter's bestie wanted a dog too. And you actually sent me a link to a breeder who had a cockapoo.
Annie:
This is where I feel like I really failed because I feel bad now that I did that
Ronda:
They got that cocakpoo
Annie:
I know. And I feel like, I mean, I know, and I mean, again, like I'm just very anti puppy mills and what's funny is like the best book I've written, like the best piece of dog journalism I've read- I mean, in the last few years, was The Dog Merchant,
Ronda:
Which is Kim Kavin…
Annie:
Which I read not knowing that you are friends with Kim who wrote it, Kim Kavin- is that her last name?.
Ronda:
Kavin. Yeah. I mean, I know we professionally know each other and she was, she advised me… Because I was interviewing her for a story about people, I don't know, something like people decorated homes with dogs for, you know, anyway. And so I interviewed her and then she was telling me, cause she had just written this big story in the in the Washington post about like, this is the biggest run on dogs in American history. And they can't get a dog to save your life. And she gave really good advice, which was like, you have to go to the breeder. Like even if they say all these nice things and they have a really pretty website, nothing means anything until you actually see what they have that they'll tell you whatever they want you, whatever you want them to hear. And so that the breeder that you sent me that I sent to my friend, she went and got the dog, but I called her and I didn't like her because she didn't have any information about the dogs. And I was like…
Annie:
Okay, well. Background, I first said…
Ronda:
Go to a good breeder. Yeah. And you gave me good names.
Annie:
Which I always recommend, like the same, like two or three people, There's Red Teddy poodles website, them there and then Cherrie, of River Valley. But I, you know,…
Ronda:
They're backlogged.
Annie:
They’re backlogged. And I suggested what I also sometimes suggest like ask if they have any older dogs that they’re like rehoming
Ronda:
Right. So what we did, we did,
Annie:
But then I said the thing that I regretted saying, which is like, well, you could look on Craigslist, but then but I think like it's, it's generally a bad idea to get a dog on Craigslist for a lot of different reasons. But one of the reasons that I was reminded of when I re-listened recently to the podcast episode I did with Cherrie was that like some of them might be stolen puppies, like going to breeders and stealing puppies, which was just so super creepy, shady anyway. I mean, I'm sure there's also like perfectly fine people on both sides.
Ronda:
Right? Well, there was one woman who I called, who was like, this is a scam. Somebody steals my phone number and posts my dog all the time. It's my dog. I'm not giving my dog away. Like, she's like, so there was that.
Annie:
But must be some like jilted ex lover, that's like posting your dog on.
See it also creepy things that happen. I think there's too much chance for creepy things to happen on Craigslist. And then you were, you were sending me puppies from like breeders that you were finding like in Pennsylvania. And I just know that there's like a lot of breeding going on in Pennsylvania. A lot of Amish people breeding. I don't know how much of it is legit. I don't know how much of it is puppy mills. Like, I really just don't know, but, but let's fast forward to the story to the fact that it seems like you, you actually went out there, did the legwork and you found a breeder that you feel good about. Right?
Ronda:
Right.
Annie:
What were the the first two breeders are, unless you want Theo to talk about the three breeders that you met with. Where’s Theo? I wanted like a Theo show..
Ronda:
Yeah. He left. He gave up this. He had no patience. I don't know. He's probably in his video game land. I don't know. See how long so he could get him back anyway. Let's so I tried these American kennel club breeders for Bichoins actually. And they all told me they had, they were breeding show dogs and they were, they gave me ahead of folks' applications. They all had, the dogs were going to be born in October. And I called them all. I like was all fine and I got ghosted by all of them. So then at that point I had now promised the children that they're going to have these dogs and now we're in October and I'm going to go. So that's when I went to the Amish breeder land and there's these websites that are dog and they have these breeders.
And so I found three breeders that had poodle puppies that were ready to go home in Lancaster County. So we drove out to them and we said to ourselves that we were going to tell all of them that we would make a decision later, but we weren't going to immediately get any puppy. So we went to the first one and you know, it was like, he was a salesman. He had like, he told us to call 45 minutes before we're on his front lawn. He has a three-year-old daughter. It's this litter of puppies. The moms, nowhere to be found. It's clear. The more I asked him, it's clearly a puppy mill. Like he has a bunch of different dog breeds. He keeps them in like a kennel place. You realize the dogs aren’t living with him and his daughter. It's not clear if the dogs are living with this little girl, she's obviously been around puppies, but I didn't get the sense that she'd been around these puppies. Like, she was just as excited to see these puppies as we were. So he was really… He was like, nice, but very salesmen. He, and when we said, well, we need to think about it. He got really a kind of like, well, I'm going to go out and you can't have it, they won't be here later. And I'm like, you got like eight puppies here, like they'll be here later. And so I just was like ughhh and felt icky.
So then we went to the second breeder and it was like this, and they're all, those are all Amish breeders. So it’s this old Amish guy he's on his farm. It's like a compound, like a bunch of houses. He comes out, he takes us into the barn. There's two puppies in a crate by themselves. They're crying. Like my daughter puts one in her lap. They're like shaking. My first thought was like, get me out of here. But then like, he brings them outside and they're happy and they're playing and he's talking for a while, but like, I don't know where the mother is. They're a little older by this point. They're 11 weeks. Tessa, like my daughter was like, we have to take what one of these puppies. Like, it felt like rescue feeling. But I was like, it's a lot of money for rescue. And again, like, I didn't know. I didn't get a sense of like…
Annie:
Like you were rescuing the puppy from a bad situation.
Ronda:
Yes. And so I felt like…
Annie:
Cause you called me right after that one. And I was like, well, I mean, what if you're getting the puppy, does it really matter if it's, if it's rescued or it was paid for like in the end, like I understand the argument of like the puppy comes home with you in any case, the result is the same. And I, and, like, to be honest, I think that's a lot of like the rationale people have for like going to pet stores, but then, you know, without thinking about sort of like, well, yeah, but you're also like helping perpetuate a system like this person who has the two puppies in the barn, now you're now encouraged him to do it again.
Same with a pet store. It's like, you're supporting an industry anyway.
Ronda:
And neither of these breeders asked us a single question about ourselves.
Annie:
But again, like you could get a great dog.
Ronda:
Right. You could, but it's all, I'm sort of thinking like, what is my point here? Right. You know, like, why do I, like, I guess, why do I care? And I think it's like, what do you, what? What's the story perpetuating? But I was also like anxious. Like I don't want a dog that might already have anxiety it might already have issues. And maybe he's older than they said, or a different breed.
So anyway, so then we go to the third guy and he's also on a farm, but then we go into his barn. He has a really big barn and there's a horse. And then the next stall is like the puppies. And they're all in a little stall together with like hay, like, you know, straw on the floor. And it's like a nice there's light coming through and they seem really happy. And then he's like, do you want to see the mom?
And see, then I was like, the first thing you said like, well, I suppose you should meet the mother. So he brings in the mom and the puppies go bananas and they all come clamoring out of their little stall. And some of them are falling on top of her and like they're running, they're barking and they start nursing her. And then he sort of like, looks, he's kind of like, well, she was a little tired. And he's like, are you okay sweetheart? And he like moves her and gets her in a good position. And you can tell, he feels kind of bad for the mom, the mom you could have had enough of these puppies. And then two of them are really small and he's like, I'm not letting these ones go yet because they're too small and they're not getting enough milk from their mother because the bigger ones keep taking it. So I'm going to make sure they get more milk. And he just seemed like he could like these dogs.
Like, it was just like, I don't know if he's like does everything right? But he seemed like he loved the dogs. And he was like, I gave them a bath yesterday and then he had another dog came in. Oh. And the mother, he had just built a kennel for the mother and for another dog he had, and they had their own escape route where they went out the back to go run in the farm. They had like 80 acres or they came in and it was like their own little kennel cage, you know, he had built it for them. And then the mother could come in and feed the dogs when she wanted to. And there was another dog who with obviously like guarding the puppies and was so sweet. And he only had one eye and he was like this old dog. And he was just… he would like pet the dog and he just, and then he was like, grilling us. But very calmly, like he was the only one who was like, poodles have a lot of energy. Do you have a yard? Do you live in New York city? Are you in an apartment?
Annie:
Yeah. He was asking you questions.
Ronda:
And he's like, what do you do for a living? Like how long are you guys…
Annie:
Yeah. I feel really good that you feel really good about it. And I applaud your journey.
Ronda:
So I felt like I didn't know what I was looking for, you know? And it wasn't until I found him that I felt like, I was like, oh, this is what I'm looking for. Like a person who cares about what he's doing. And like, yeah. And that these puppies…
Annie:
And the only thing that made me hesitate was like, I told you, you know, Cherrie says, you gotta do genetic testing. It's inexpensive. It's important. So that's my only… the only thing that gives me pause. But like I said, it sounds like, you know, on balance, like you feel good about it and yeah.
Ronda:
Right, yeah and weirdly none of them do it and I don’t know why.
Annie:
Yeah. I don't know why either. It's maybe let me ask, le me ask her. I mean, she's like, you know, it's so important and it, you know, is inexpensive. So, but if someone's not a professional breeder, maybe they just don't know to do it, but which then goes back to the earlier person I was talking to where I think it's probably not a great idea to be an experimental breeder.
But anyway, all right, well, I would just want her to share it, your, your experience. And I know you don't even have the dog yet. And I'm hoping that you will be coming to ….Ronda lives in New Jersey, but I've been, I've instructed her to come to play times at School for the Dogs. Because I think we have the best play times. I mean, even if you, if you can get to one a week, I think that would be a great idea, but also, you know, I'm…one thing we've been trying to do especially in these months of COVID is help connect people who have puppies, you know, in New York city like how can we connect people who can have like socially distance one-on-one play times. I mean, sure, they could sign up and come to us, but like, they could also do it like, you know, in if they can like put up an X pen in some outdoor space or like there are, or do it in someone's deck, you know, there's ways to have socially distant, socially appropriate play time.
And I know you're looking into puppy kindergarten classes near you and my advice. I know we talked about this a little bit before offline, but, generally my advice is like call them and ask if they run play times and like what, how much playtime is part of whatever class that they do. But my suggestion would be to do a virtual class. We have some coming up if, but I mean, even if we can't fit you in, like maybe, you know, find someone else's doing a virtual, because honestly, like, I think it can be easier for families to do the training with the dog if it's virtual, because like, you don't have to worry about getting somewhere. you don't have to worry about as everyone's schedule, it's safer right now.
Ronda:
Okay.
Annie:
And you know, you can do it in your living room and you can record it if someone can't be there. But you know, there is benefit to coming to a class, but in the crazy crazy world we live in and you know, when your family situation, like I would just do it virtually as long as you're making sure he's getting playtime. And that's why I think I, I, you know, I would reach out to those trainers who are having puppy kindergartens near you and see if they do a playtime, that's just a playtime. Ideally I think it should be really no more than like four dogs and one trainer there, but come to our play times first, because that's where you're going to, and, you know, like do the body language basics course, which I know you have like do that stuff because you're going to go in with like an eye that's trained to figure out like, you know,, is Bowie having a good time or not.
Ronda:
And then when you have a class, your, the virtual classes you offer, like what a package of classes, and then we do it virtually?
Annie:
Yeah, it's six classes. All right, I have to hop off cause I ordered a new mattress and it's on its way. So I hate to end this call and Ronda, we can, of course keep talking. And I know you're, you're getting the puppy shortly.
I also now need to figure out what I'm going to do with my soaked computer. Anyway, gotta end this Love you Ronda, thank you for being here and thanks for the rest of you for hope this wasn't too much of like a therapy session, Annie therapy session. Bye.
Links:
Live Q and A with Annie Grossman
Good Dog Training Online Course
Episode 63: A Pet Food Killed My Dog: Susan Thixton & The Truth About Pet Food
Episode 78: When your home isn't the right home for your dog (and other subjects)
School for the Dogs' Online Courses
The Dog Merchants: Inside the Big Business of Breeders, Pet Stores, and Rescuers
Episode 42: Let's talk about dog breeding with Cherrie Mahon of River Valley Doodles
