25 DecEpisode 107 | School For The Dogs’ Private Training Manager Claire Cario on therapy dogs, deaf dogs, and more
Meet Claire Cario, School For The Dogs’ Private Training Manager. Annie interviews Claire about her journey into the world of dog training, which began with a childhood love of nature shows and eventually led to an array of interesting jobs working with dogs, from training dogs to herd geese in Prospect Park, to working with therapy dog teams at The Good Dog Foundation to evaluating dogs in New York City’s public shelter system and beyond. Claire also talks about the rewards, and occasional challenges, of living in New York with her deaf and partially-blind rescue dog, Otis.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Otis The Aussie (@ghostdog_otis) • Instagram photos and videos
Transcript:
Annie:
All right. So I am here with Claire Cario, who I am honored to call an employee. Claire, why don't you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about what you do at School for the Dogs, and then we can move back in time from there.
Claire:
Sure. So I have been with School for the Dogs for the past year, and it's been quite an interesting year for everyone. And I came on board as a private trainer manager and also as one of the behavior therapy consultant trainers as well. Annie and Kate, both of you guys have been colleagues of mine for years. We've walked in the same kind of pathway for over a decade. And it just really was a great opportunity and I was excited to come on board.
Annie:
Well, yeah, I mean, when we hired you, I felt like we have arrived. Like if we have Claire Cario working for us, we're doing something right. And well I want to talk actually about the first time you and I met, which was like 10 years ago, but I'm interested in, in sort of knowing how you got into dog training to begin with. Cause you know what, I actually don't really know.
Claire:
Yeah. Neither do I, Annie. [laughs]
Annie:
You’re like who am I? What am I doing?
Claire:
Who am I, well, you figure that out after the fact, I think, generally. Yeah, my story is interesting. I used to work in the film industry as a camera assistant for years. So I was a union camera assistant.
Annie:
Is that like a, what does a camera assistant do? Is that different than a best boy? And also, I don't know what a best boy is.
Claire:
I actually was a best girl on a few jobs as well. That's working in the electric department, specifically working with anything that's electrical. But the camera assistant is, I was a first AC primarily. Worked my way up pretty quickly, and at the age of 23, I was walked into the union.
Basically, like it's so arbitrary, that job, and the skill set is so weird. But basically I kept things in focus. That was like my primary goal. And you know, I'm not going to get into, that's a whole nother podcast about what that means. But that's important. Like obviously actors need to be in focus.
Annie:
Did you work on any films that we may have seen, I may have seen?
Claire:
Yeah, I worked in a lot of independent film back in the day when it was still independent. I think probably the most well-known films that I worked on were Boys Don't Cry and The Believer, that launched Ryan Gosling's film career. And Wendigo.
Annie:
Boys Don’t Cry. I remember that one. That was a big deal.
Claire:
Yeah, that was a privilege to work on. That was a great job.
Annie:
So how did you get from there to dog life?
Claire:
The film industry is a tough, it's a tough game. Certainly being a woman in a technical field is also challenging, and it just was hard to balance life. And so there was always some trepidation, and I never finished undergrad. Straight off the bat, I went into film early on when I was 19. So I always wanted to go back to school. And honestly 9/11 happened, and there was no film work, and I went back to school during that time period.
Annie:
Where'd you go to school?
Claire:
Hunter, Hunter college.
Annie:
I know you ended up getting a graduate degree there, but for undergrad?
Claire:
Yeah, I finished my BA there. And that's when I really got into, I mean, it was always my passion. Animal behavior was always my passion. Always something that I was interested in since I was a kid, but somehow I fell into film. It's not something you know about when you are a kid that grows up in Delaware, but you kind of fall into it. And then animal behavior kinda that happened as well.
Like once I started doing some research, in my undergrad, I worked with a fantastic professor, Dr. Mueller at Hunter. And he kind of inspired me in terms of really getting into animal behavior. And initially when I finished my undergrad, I was going to take a year off and pursue a PhD in primatology. That year I was not a kid, I was struggling to kind of like just pay the bills. And I was working also at a veterinary clinic just to get some more kind of like hands-on understanding of the medical side.
And then Hunter, they had just started the Animal Behavior and Conservation program, and so I decided to do that. So I went back to Hunter after a year off and pursued a master's in human psychology, and also the certification in animal behavior and psychology.
Annie:
I’m interested that you said animal behavior was always your passion. Cause I don't even think I like knew what animal behavior was. I mean, were you interested in dogs, were you reading?
Claire:
Everything. Jane Goodall is one of my heroes. As a kid, I remember watching what was that movie — Oh, Diane Fossey with Sigourney Weaver. Like I remember watching that and just, Oh my God, it was just like, Oh my God, I just want to sit in the jungle with gorillas and just watch them, and just kind of like observe them and also use that.
Like as a kid, I watched PBS all the time.
Annie:
Nova.
Claire:
Nova nature. It just made sense to me and it helped me as a kid growing up feel like I had a better understanding of human behavior by watching animal behavior. So that was always something that was interesting.
Annie:
Wow, you were way ahead of me.
Claire:
It stuck with me, you know, like I had dogs growing up, but we didn't train them. We didn't do anything with them. So I wasn't even really like working with canines, wasn't even something that happened until late into my graduate career. And reality set in. I'm like getting a little old, I don't know if sitting in the jungle is for me right now.
And then I got really into working with dogs, and towards end of my graduate career, I started working for — it’s weird because initially applied to be a handler for an organization that uses border collies to haze Canadian geese off of public and private land.
Annie:
Oh, really? I've always heard about that, tell me more. And also, slightly related. Recently, I know that they bring goats into places, too.
Claire:
Oh yeah, here in prospect park. There were goats here.
Annie:
Rental goats.
Claire:
And they come and they just break down all the weeds. So that everything gets to restart in a fresh way. Yeah.
Annie:
So tell me more about that.
Claire:
So I met with them and they were super stoked and they wanted to hire me, but they wanted me to work on Long Island. And at the time I was living in Brooklyn, I was finishing my graduate degree and I was like, I don't think I can do this. And then they're like, well, you used to work in film. Right? And so I ended up shooting a documentary for them.
Annie:
About what they were doing?
Claire:
Yeah. So I filmed a documentary for them.
Annie:
What’s that called?
Claire:
Geese Off. It’s on YouTube. I forget the title of it. They put it, we put it all together. But we basically broke it down into like, I think, seven different segments. And it's all about border collies, and this kind of humane strategy, humane conservation strategy to deal with the overpopulation of Canadian geese, specifically in the Northeast.
So was doing that. And then I ended up doing my thesis on that, and I ended up working for them here in Brooklyn. I had a border Collie with me for six months and we worked Brooklyn Bridge Park before that opened. They had a serious problem with Canadian geese, and Molly and I would go there seven or eight times a day and just work the land, push the geese off.
And just, that's when I was just like, this is awesome. I kind of want to keep doing this.
Annie:
That is so cool. Where would the geese go when they went off?
Claire:
It's a strategy that is challenging because they really just go to the next kind of like piece of greenery. And thats a problem with dealing with geese is, is there's so much lovely grass for them to eat everywhere. They just hop over into another land. It works really well and it's obviously humane as opposed to the other techniques that are being used to kind of control the population. So it was pretty cool spending that time and just really working with a dog for the first time in my life. And that's, that was it. And I was sold.
Annie:
And what was your thesis on that at Hunter?
Claire:
It was on basically the humane strategy of hazing Canadian geese, and also the animal human bond between trainer and dog. So it was kind of a combination of conservation psychology. And that's kind of the direction I was wanting to go in, was going back and doing more research related stuff. But then reality sets in and I was like, I need to work a little bit so I can pay off my student loans.
So when I finished my master's degree, I started looking around to see what I could do. And during that period of time, I also apprenticed with a trainer here in New York City. And then I started looking for work. I was also starting to kind of formulate my own business and kind of building up that clientele. I had been working for a veterinary office for four years, so I had a really good steady kind of connection and knew a lot about cats as well. So that was kind of also a forte of mine.
Annie:
Which veterinary practice were you working with?
Claire:
They're actually no longer, it's the Redman referral group. They were in Park Slope and in Williamsburg, and since then, I think both of those offices have closed and they moved to Miami and Long Island.
Annie:
And were you like a vet tech?
Claire:
I was not a certified vet tech, but there was one of those smaller practices where they kind of just showed me stuff, and I assisted in surgery and it just was a great experience. So learned a lot there, met some great vets who actually are still — Dr. Pingley, that's where I met her. That are still, you know, we have a good working relationship together. And yeah, then I applied for a job with the Good Dog Foundation as a therapy dog trainer and volunteer coordinator.
Annie:
Which is where we first met!
Claire:
Exactly! And I was there for seven years. I worked there pretty much part-time and then saw private clients part-time. And that was a fantastic experience because, again, so much about what I do is the human animal bond, and working with therapy dogs was not only great with the dogs, with their partners. But also working directly with healthcare organizations, developmentally disabled, working in shelters. Just kind of bringing some kind of great progressive therapeutic things where they're needed. So I did a lot of research in therapy work and the benefits of that, and it just was a great experience, super great experience.
Annie:
So for people who don't know about Good Dog Foundation , can you explain a little bit what it is? And what your role was there too?
Claire:
Yeah, so Good Dog Foundation was founded just around 9/11 and Rachel MacPherson founded it and it exploded. I worked with over 200 organizations across New York City in all the five boroughs. But basically we trained therapy dogs. We weren't official like animal assisted therapy certifications. It was basically a partnership where they'd go through a five week course.
A lot of evaluation of the dog to see if they're able to kind of handle this level of stress, being exposed to this level of stimuli, hospitals, jails, homeless shelters, things like that. It can be a little challenging for a lot of dogs. And then making sure that they have a good layer of basic obedience and yeah, and we just brought happiness to people. There's been a tremendous amount of research that showed just petting a dog lowers cardio rates, decreases depression scores, and it was great. It was super wonderful. I know, and a really great starting point for my career.
Annie:
Well, we met when I was, I don't remember actually.
Claire:
You were at school.
Annie:
Yeah. I went to a school. I don't remember if you were the person who evaluated me and my dog.
Claire:
I remember!
Annie:
But I remember meeting you at at the school. Do you know if you were the one who evaluated us?
Claire:
No, I didn't. I think you and Amos had just finished the training program and then there was that initial visit that you had to be observed on. And that's when I jumped in. So I met you guys, and I think it was a PS 75 school that you guys were.
Annie:
It was out in like Brownsville, New York. It was a school for like kids that are never going to be okay. Yeah. I don't know the PC way to put it.
Claire:
I mean, if anyone knows, PS-75 is this school district in New York City that basically that's the umbrella district for all the schools with special ed, behavioral or physical specialties that are needed.
Annie:
Yeah. Like, they take everyone in the city and bus them there. Is that how it works?
Claire:
No. So the district itself is not like one place. It covers lots of locations.
Annie:
Oh. Okay.
Claire:
And usually there's like PS 75 schools within another school. And that’s where you were, was just like one or two classrooms.
Annie:
We did it for maybe, I don't know, six months. And it was rewarding. We would go into the classrooms and he would do some tricks. And there were definitely kids who seemed like they opened up to him in a way that was special. But we stopped doing it. There was two reasons, one, it was pretty far. And it just ended up sort of taking a lot of time that like, I think at one point I was able to give that time, and then I just wasn't able to anymore because of work. But it was also like, I found it really emotionally hard for myself.
Claire:
Yeah, yeah. That is definitely true. And that was something that I tried to work on in terms of like, making sure that volunteers were okay in this work. You know what I mean?
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah. It's not nothing. And I, tell me if you have experienced this, but I have had the hunch many times that people say, Oh, I want my dog to be a therapy dog. And it's like they want it like a badge that their dog can wear of like proof of that they've attained a certain kind of level without necessarily understanding like, okay, well, if your dog is going to be a therapy dog, that's like quite actually a big commitment on your part in a lot of ways. Time, energy, effort, emotions. It's not just like, do you know what I mean?
Claire:
Yeah, no. And compassion fatigue is a real thing. And I hear you, and I do think everyone gets into the therapy dog work because they do have that compassion. But it can, you know, and this is something I used to tell my volunteers all the time is like, you really want to work in this specific environment, but let's talk about it. Let's talk about what that means to work in a hospice environment. And I don't think people get it until they get there. And they're like, okay, that's a lot. And it is, it's a lot. It's a lot for anyone that works in the healthcare industry.
Annie:
Yeah. So it's like, the dog is really only part of it.
Claire:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Annie:
But, you know, I think anyone who goes through that training is helping their dog just be better socialized in the world, whether or not they go forward with it. Because yeah, like a lot of times, I mean a lot of it is the kind of stuff we do in puppy class, like introducing them to crutches and wheelchairs and like people touching them in ways that might be strange. And that's like valuable for any dog.
Claire:
And I think one of the hardest things for me to do is when I would do those initial evaluations, where people were interested in going through the training process, is meeting their dog and evaluating them and having to tell the volunteers like, you may really want to do this, but your dog doesn't right. Because if your dog doesn't want to do this, it's not going to be healthy because this kind of stress is not healthy.
Annie:
Right. It's like, there's the dog that you imagined having. And then there's the actual dog that you have, and you have to do what's right for the dog.
Claire:
Right. And love them for who they are.
Annie:
Love them for who they are. What do you do now when clients say I'm interested in my dog becoming a therapy dog?
Claire:
I either send them to them or to Delta. Which is a little bit more kind of like self. Like it's just an exam. Like it's not a class. Because most of the other therapy organizations in the country like TDI and Delta, it's just, you need to pass an evaluation similar to like CGC. Where there's no actual class, they give you a book and they're like, here you go.
And I think the good thing about Good Dog Foundation was that you would have this course designed for the work you're doing, then you get your final evaluation and then they kind of helped you find facilities. Because that's challenging too.
Annie:
That's a big part of it. Whereas if you go through Delta or TDI, then are you responsible for finding your own facilities?
Claire:
Yeah. You got to cold call people and just show up or they, I mean, I think some of them are listed. I have not, to be honest with you, paid attention in the past six or seven years.
Annie:
Well, one thing, an idea that has been floating around since COVID started, actually came from a cousin of mine who lives in DC and has been doing something similar with his dog, is like reading to dogs online. I've thought for a long time it would be great to, if we could figure out some way to do like a kid and dog program. Where kids could come to School for the Dogs and read to approved dogs. Because there are reading to dog programs throughout the country that are great.
Claire:
They're fantastic. It's unbiased judgmental environment. We did a lot of that. I do a lot of that with schools, with the Brooklyn public library.
Annie:
Maybe we can put our brains together and see if we can figure out a way to really actually get that going, especially right now, since kids are home. But also the other thing that my cousin is doing that I think could be cool is actually doing it via Zoom. Which would probably open it up to a lot of dogs who might not otherwise be able to participate.
Claire:
It's funny you said that. Cause when I was in quarantine, down in Delaware, my friend who I stayed with, she teaches children on the autism spectrum. And she would have really challenging moments of just kind of keeping their attention during Zoom sessions. And she would just like, “Claire, bring me a dog!”
I would bring generally [inaudible] or her other dog Daisy, and she would just like sit down on the floor and work the lesson, but have the dog in the frame as well. And it was a way to keep those kids kind of looking at the screen, right. Because it's like, what am I actually looking at? There's nothing interesting. But if there's a dog there, some of them were just like, okay, I'll pay attention now. It was cool.
Annie:
That’s genius. Okay. Well, you know, you and I have to pow-wow about this somewhere.
So after Good Dog, well, your own business was called Barnyard.
Claire:
Barnyard Behavior. Yeah. And that was great. It was super great. But you know, working for yourself is a challenge in this city.
Annie:
So you went from good dog to ACC?
Claire:
No, there's a little blip in between. So there was one point where, again, towards the end of Good Dog, I was starting to think, okay, I'm tired of working with all these good dogs. I want to work with some more behaviorally challenging dogs.
Annie:
I want the bad dogs.
Claire:
Yeah, give me some bad dogs! So I applied for a job with the ASPCA, the anti-cruelty behavior team and I got a call back literally within like two hours after sending off —
Annie:
So explain, I know what this is, but for those listening, explain what this is cause it's so interesting.
Claire:
Yeah. So, the ASPCA, wonderful huge organization but anti-cruelty behavior team is a part of their, well, it's gotten very big now. But it basically works with dogs in the field. In terms of dogs that are being seized from dog fighting rings or from hoarding cases or any type of specific abuse that may be going on. And that's, those are the dogs they work with. Right. And then it's now a very large umbrella, so they now have their rehab center down in Asheville. And so they work with dogs specifically there.
But when I applied seven years ago, I got a call back straight away from Dr. Pam Reed who was the vice-president at the time. And great interview. Went down. She invited me for a working interview for three days down in Florida. They had just seized a five state dog fighting ring that had 370 something dogs in an emergency shelter.
And I jumped right in and it was fantastic. It was a combination of a couple loves, like it was fast paced and high energy, like the film industry. And it was working on the fly, thinking outside the box. Did a lot of the valuations on these dogs and just, I just fell in love with the work. And so then I ended up working with them as a consultant for two and a half years and deployed on like a dozen different cases over those years, and it was incredibly fulfilling.
But not sustainable, right. Because they had a small team that was full-time and then they had a lot of consultants. And it was exhausting because there were 10 day deployments. S
Annie:
Tell me about some of the cases.
Claire:
Well, most of the ones that I worked on were dog fighting cases. So it was working with dogs that were taken from longstanding rings. And, I can't say too many specifics just because there's some legality concerns. But what, what we did was, it was very, very well organized and regimented. But we would evaluate all of the dogs that were seized from puppies. Well, I should say from, the proper term, bitches. From pregnant female dogs, all the way up to the older dogs.
We evaluate them all several times. First, when they come in after their two week quarantine, we evaluate them. And then every two weeks we'd evaluate again after we do some behavior modification with them.
Annie:
And this was on site. So you're like traveling around the country doing this.
Claire:
Yeah. It was all onsite. And these emergency shelters, most of them, since they're part of legal cases, were in large warehouses, and definitely a challenging environment for both humans and dogs to live in. And sometimes, unfortunately these dogs get stuck in limbo, right? Because these are legal cases and according to the law, they're considered property.
Until their owners are actually convicted, they're still considered property of the owners. Unless the owners give over their right of possession, which a lot of them don't because this is their source of income, this is their livelihood, these fighting dogs. And so these dogs sometimes would sit for one, two years, two and a half years in these emergency shelter situations.
Annie:
It's heartbreaking, and they can't even be fostered out.
Claire:
No, no, they couldn't be fostered out. Sometimes there was ways, like if the lawyers were able to get together and be like, okay, we can foster them in a home, but they're still not available for adoption. And we can't do anything with them. But a lot of times they just kind of sit in limbo.
Annie:
God, is dog fighting — I'm sorry to interrupt, I'm just like, is dog fighting really still like a huge problem in a lot of parts of the country?
Claire:
Yes.
Claire:
Am I just in a bubble where it's not part of my world?
Claire:
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely still very present. You know, it's very cultural based. Also regionally based, it's big in the South. And you know, up here, some of the cases or some of the rings are smaller, they're not generations, right. They're just like newbies who are trying this out. But some of the more kind of like seriously generations of dog fighting, you know, that's the idea of genetics, right? This is what we've been doing for years, this is why golden retrievers are so wonderful, happy pets to have. Cause we've bred them to be that way, right.
And that's exactly what dog fighters do, you know, they kind of weed out the ones that are not as prone to dog-dog aggression and things like that. So it's still very big for sure.
Annie:
And is it a hundred percent like pit bull type dogs?
Claire:
No, not always, not always. There's some mixtures in there. And again, it's regional, it's cultural and regional based. But for the most part, it is. Just because of the stereotype of the pit bull, and they do have — the bite pressure is much greater than most dogs. I mean, any dog who bites you is going to hurt you. But you times bite pressure times some of that, that behavioral repertoire, the modal action pattern of stalk, chase, bite, shake. You know, that's in that terrier line. It makes for more damage and that's what they're looking for obviously.
Annie:
Are these dogs like fighting to the kill?
Claire:
That's pretty much usually the end result.
Annie:
Oh my God. I can't even, I can't even think about it. Okay. I interrupted you. Go on, let's talk about happier things like your New York City publicly run shelters.
Claire:
Yes, yes. Yeah. So, while I was doing that, I decided I wanted to walk away from working with therapy dogs. And I applied to animal care centers of New York City, which is the largest municipal shelter, open admission municipal shelter in the country. And worked there for five years as assistant behavior manager. That I could talk to you for about five hours!
Annie:
Well, tell me something. Well, for people who are not in New York City. Can you describe like what it is, where it is and what it is? Because I think just like those details alone would shock people.
Claire:
Yeah. So there are three full-time care centers located in Brooklyn, Manhattan, Staten Island, and then two drop off intake centers in the Bronx and Queens. And on a yearly basis, and don't quote me with these numbers because I don't work there any longer. On a yearly basis, we received 9,000 dogs a year in intake, and at any given time at the three full-time care centers, we had upwards of 300 dogs in our care. That’s a lot of dogs. Yeah. It's a lot of dogs.
Annie:
And it's located like literally a stone's throw from like some of the wealthiest neighborhoods in New York City. Right? Which always boggles my mind because people who live on the upper East side by Central Park or whatever probably don't realize that there are these dogs who are
Claire:
Need a home.
Annie:
Like so close by them.
Claire:
Yup. yeah. Anyway, so, while I was there, I worked primarily at the Brooklyn shelter and also at the Staten Island shelter. And then towards the end at the Manhattan Hilton there as well. I had a fantastic team, a fantastic, fantastic boss and just wonderful human beings that work there. And we put together probably one of the most progressive behavior departments while I was there for five years.
We ran playgroups every day, we had one of the most fulfilling enrichment programs as possible. We were building up our volunteer program, we had trainers on staff. And it just, I'm not going to say it was easy. Going back to that compassion, fatigue. It definitely was challenging, but also incredibly rewarding.
Annie:
So a dog comes in there, and then would they go in a room with you? Like, how does that work?
Claire:
So dogs would come in. The way that it works is you don't evaluate a dog on day one, just cause the transition into a shelter is just too stressful for them. So the earliest we would evaluate them would be day three, but on day two, they would come out to playgroup. So that was the beginning of our eval, so we would look at their dog, dog sociability, and also look at how they were with handlers.
It started from day one, we put together also a behavior evaluation for the medical staff there to see, cause that's where the dogs would go first is go get vaccines, have a full medical. And then obviously we can kind of like absorb some of that behavior information on how they did there. Then we can help kind of like strategize what this dog was going to need and which direction this dog would go in.
Would this dog go straight to adoptions? They seem to love getting vaccines and they're super, you know, social. So there's no reason to hold a dog for another three or four or five days in a shelter if they're showing absolutely no behavioral concerns. If we have a full history profile from their previous owners, we would try and move these dogs through as quickly as possible and not hold on to them. We just don't have that bandwidth. It just, it just can't happen.
Annie:
And it's better for the dog to get them out of there too.
Claire:
I agree. I agree. I mean, a lot of people disagree with that. A lot of people want to kind of like see the dog and get more information. A we just couldn't do that at ACC
Annie:
Also from the little bit that I know about shelters, a lot of times dogs get sick with upper respiratory infections and in a shelter that is a not no kill shelter, they have to make choices about who they're going to keep. And so something like a upper, you know, basically like a dog cold could be a death sentence. Right?
Claire:
Yes. It used to be that way at ACC, but they stopped that protocol a couple of years ago and came up with different strategies, and that's the, that's the beauty of ACC. They've become very progressive in terms of thinking outside the box. So dogs with what's called CIRDC, which is not just kennel cough. There's multiple bacteria and viruses that kind of make a dog sick, just like people, like the common cold is not just a virus, right. It's a variety of things, or it's just, it's much more complicated that, so it's canine infectious resource.
Yeah, so the foster program was great with that, right? So a dog would get sick. We would have fosters set up that had single dog homes. So the dog was able to come live out their treatment. And then in the meantime, we get some information about how the dog is in the foster home, how the dog is doing just in general, some really great photos, and then hopefully get them adopted. So they don't have to come back to the shelter.
And so that's what I mean by the different trajectories that these dogs were gone. So it's very, it's a really amazing framework that ACC has put together in the past. I mean, anybody that knew anything about ACC 10 years ago, it's a completely different organization than it was 10 years ago. Absolutely. But it's still challenging and it is, you know. I'm not going to get into the no-kill framework. Because technically the definition of no-kill is a 95% release rate, my release rate, which ACC has had for dogs since I started working there. So it's technically considered a no-kill shelter even though —
Annie:
Really, I didn't know that.
Claire:
Yeah. And it's, that's because, you know, misinformation is everywhere
Annie:
Before I had got into dog training, I would have thought like, how dare they kill any dog? Like every dog could be saved. And now I feel like there is not necessarily like the perfect home for every single dog. And that sucks.
Claire:
Yeah. There's just not enough homes, you know? You start there. There's just not enough homes that are open to dogs that have any type of behavioral/medical challenges. So that's a problem. Unfortunately there's only so many homes that can handle a dog that has severe on-leash reactivity. Right. They just don't have the financial capability to hire a trainer, things like that. So that shuts down that many homes.
Annie:
Right. And not to brag too much about what we do, but I think we're doing good work and helping people with — helping develop people's vocabulary on how to even think about dealing with those kinds of issues. Like a dog who is lunging at other dogs on the street is not a bad dog.
Claire:
No, that is correct. That is correct.
Annie:
And then we got you from there.
Claire:
Yeah. You stole me.
Annie:
So tell me about Otis. Your dog.
Claire:
Oh, the best dog in the world. Otis.
Annie:
Did he come from ACC?
Claire:
No, he did not. He came from Kentucky and here's the backstory of Otis. How old are you buddy? Eight? About seven years ago, when everything else in my life was changing, I was like, this is a good time to get a dog. I was looking at fostering an older, special needs dog. So I reached out to an organization here in New York City that is unfortunately no longer around because the organizer passed away. But it was called White Angels.
And it was a white shepherd, her name was Angie. And she had just become paralyzed and just got in her wheelchair. And I was like, ah, that's the dog I want to foster. And what happened was there was someone else that was interested in the fostering, but they came and did a home visit, and while they're here, they were like, Hey, you know what? We have someone else that it might be better.
live on the sixth floor. They basically were like, what happens if your elevator goes out? And I was like, Oh, I don't know, carry a 65 pound dog up and down the stairs. And they're like, we have someone else that's super willing to take this dog. They have a yard. And I was like, okay, perfect.
But they had these two puppies that were being flown up to New York from a lovely farmer in Kentucky, who is a working farm. And he had what's called a Southern cocktail accident where two of his Australian shepherds mated and they had a litter. They both were merle coated shepherds, and if you mate two merle coated shepherds together there is a 25% chance if you use the Punnett square that some of the offspring will have some type of hearing or vision issues.
So there were five dogs in the litter. Two of them were born all white, huge sign that's carried in the coat color that those two dogs had some issues, right? So we find out they're both deaf. So Otis had some serious obvious vision impairments, and his brother Milo, his eyes were a little bit wacky, wacky duty.
Anyway, so those two dogs, they rescued and they flew up and they had a foster setup. But the foster was going away over the July 4th weekend. And they wanted to know if I could foster for those two for two weeks, and I was like, sure, I want to work with deaf puppies. That'd be awesome. As a dog trainer to be able to communicate with a dog without my mouth, it would help me as a trainer. So I was looking forward to just having these moments working with two dogs that couldn't hear me and using my body language and using touch.
So I did that. And they're pretty cool. Certainly was challenging for two weeks, shipped them off to their foster.
Annie:
Was there any unexpected challenge? None in the beginning, no. Other than they’re two puppies. I mean, there were plenty after this fact, but they ended up going to their foster for one night and she freaked out because they were not sleeping overnight in the crate. Basically cause she was a lawyer and she worked 10 hours and then came home, took them out and then put them back in the crate, went to bed
And I was like, Oh, yeah that's not going to work. So she couldn't foster them and I ended up taking them on, and long story short, I still have Otis. He's now eight years old, his brother Milo I had for a year and a half. I found him a wonderful home in Eastern Pennsylvania. We still, now we zoom all the time, but we visit two or three times a year.
Annie:
Sweet.
Claire:
The challenges are real in a lot of things. Right. But it actually Annie, it wasn't that hard. Just because well, dogs communicate mostly with their body.
Annie:
Right. And they are reading us so much of the time anyway. Again, before being a dog trainer days I fostered actually one time through a crazy pants foster woman in Brooklyn whose name I won't mention.
Claire:
I think I know you're talking about.
Annie:
And I probably had no business fostering at all. I had fostered a young, deaf pit bull. And I remember they were going to like set me up with a dog trainer who specialized in working with deaf dogs. And it was so messed up. Like I never even got to meet the trainer. But I remember thinking like, Oh, that's quite a specialty. And now I think could have a specialty in working with deaf dogs, but I think any good dog trainer should be able to help you work with a deaf dog
Because like they are already experiencing the world — Like, I'm sorry, I'm like not saying it well. Like we put too much stock in their ability to navigate the world through their ears when they really have, you know, their nose and their eyes are doing a lot more work than we give them credit for. Would you agree with that?
Claire:
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. Of course, with your typical structure of training cues and things like that, it's going to be different. Right. So attention is harder. You have to be within arms reach in order to get the dog's attention. Right. Or you work with a vibrating collar, which I did with Otis for a couple of years and Milo. I don't need it anymore. I've stopped using it years ago because his off-leash is perfect. He just, he just checks in and stays close.
But early on, especially with that adolescence period, it's just a lot of patience and waiting and waiting for them to get it, and just being very consistent. And like I said, there's very few challenges and honestly, there's more positive benefits, especially living in a city environment to having a deaf dog.
Annie:
[Laughs] You know, what I've often thought, you know, they make those earmuffs for dogs.
Claire:
Yep. For a reason.
Annie:
Yeah. Which is like so genius, and of course they, they do de vocalization surgery. For dogs. Which is awful.
Claire:
Yeah. My Windows and Door Barker workshop that I give every couple of months. That's how I start out. I'm like, I got a best solution for you guys.
Annie:
Make the world quiet for your dog.
Claire:
It’s jovial, but it's like, it really is. It's a bonus.
Annie:
Well, if someone could just invent earplugs for dogs rather than, or if you're going to do surgery, maybe like making dogs deaf, not that I'm suggesting this, but if you're going to do surgery rather than devocalizing them…I'm sorry, go on. You were saying.
Claire:
No, I just, there really hasn't been too many challenges. For me personally, with Otis, his deafness is one of the least of my concerns medically with him. His vision is —
Annie:
Can you tell the story? You told the story one of the first times that we had to like a meeting, I think at School for the Dogs, and I was fascinated. Can you tell the story about his eyes?
Claire:
Yeah. Those are more concerning, right? Cause obviously he can't hear — a funny thing is, something about the double moral syndrome that he has, is the ear works. Like everything works in there. The deleterious gene has taken away the cilia that pushes the sound waves into his ears, right. So he can hear low vibration things cause it's a nice, slow wave and it gets in there. Anyways, getting all sciency.
His vision has been terrible. One of his eyes just didn't work from the get-go, and I'm not gonna use any of the scientific terms, but too small for the socket and turned inwards. And also his pupil, it doesn't respond to light, so it doesn't open and close. It's also in the shape of a star, so it's not round either so that light waves come in and bounce around. So lots of issues.
His other eye is like that as well, but it functions. Obviously it functions somewhat. But maybe I would say 25 to 30% of a full functioning eye. But that right eye, it failed miserably when he was about three. Glaucoma set in and we had to remove it, and now he's a one eyed dog. But he still has issues, you know, he still has recurring uveitis.
Annie:
But talk about how you figured it out.
Claire:
Oh, the behavior changes. Is that what you're talking about? Oh, yeah. That's a whole nother thing. Totally forgot about that.
So the eyeball, as it was starting to degrade over time, Otis started developing some really concerning, challenging behaviors. He basically became agoraphobic. Very quickly, almost happened overnight. And you know, me being me, I went through everything thinking about, was there something that happened? Was there an event, what's going on? Like to the point where I was like measuring the barometer pressure every day, see if that would affect it.
But he just for four months he would go out and he still continued to relieve himself outside, but once he was done, he would plant and that was it. And it would start shaking. Something I see all the time with clients where it's just that extreme urban anxiety or agoraphobia that often you can kind of be like, Oh, they're just overwhelmed by the stimuli. But for Otis, it wasn't, this just happened.
And then what I did was I kind of started to kind of put things together and I was like, I think it's the eyeball. I think the eye hurts him. Cause the eye was starting to swell up, and the pressure in the eye was getting more intense and more intense.
And I did everything that I could. I did all the treatments that I could possibly do with him. We only ate outside. I lived on Eastern Parkway, so there's benches all the way up and down the sidewalk. So I'd go out, I feed him 10 kibble on one bench, then we'd walk to the next bench, feed him 10 more kibble. I mean, did everything you know, went to a vet behaviorists, she looked at me and she was like, you're doing everything I would tell you to do.
And she was like, maybe let's try fluoxetine. And I came home with a script in my hand and I was like, this is not what's going on. I know this is not what's going on. So I reached out to his ophthalmologist and I was like, because she swore, she was like, it's not causing him pain. And I said to her, look, I think this is it. Can we just take it out? It's not working anyway.
So she agreed, took the eyeball out, sorry, removed the eyeball [laughs].
Annie:
Popped out.
Claire:
Popped it right out! Innoculated the eyeball. And you know, he stayed overnight. I went to pick him up. He rested during the day. I took him out just for a short walk that evening, went back in. The following morning I took him across the street to the park, which he hadn't been at. We hadn't made it across the Parkway in like six weeks. And he was just like walking, with a cone one. And just walking normal. And I was like, okay, this is weird. He just seems fine. Stitches all across his eyeball area. Cone on.
And we get up to the park and I was like, he seems kind of happy. And I unleashed him and he just took off. He just took off running and was just like bounding around and bouncing. And I was just like, Oh my God. And I still watched that video almost every six months because it was so, so incredible. And I was like, Holy crap.
So I sent it to his ophthalmologist and I was like, I told you! It was the eyeball! And that was it. And that was the end of the behavior.
Annie:
So do you think it was just some
Claire:
Pain.
Annie:
Some association, the pain that he associated for some reason with being outside? Or do you think being outside made it more painful? What's your guess?
Claire:
It's a combination of things. I think the light probably caused some pain. I mean, I suffer from migraines so I understand what light does when you have that kind of pain. That pressure, you know, in an eyeball, to anybody that has glaucoma, any human, they can tell you how that feels. Movement hurts. And just like being outside and not being in the comforts of your home.
So I think all those things, he's just a very sensitive dog and, and he's like, ah, I did my business. I want to go back home now.
But. It was all good.
Annie:
So now you have a deaf, one eyeballed doggo.
Claire:
Yep.
Annie:
And tell me about working with clients with deaf dogs. Are they surprised sometimes when you suggest a vibrating collar?
Claire:
No, most of them don't. I mean, I think most of the clients that I've seen over the years with deaf dogs, and they find me somehow, have already done some research on their own. And a lot of times they bought it, but they've never taken out of the package cause they don't know what to do. What first step is.
Annie:
Step one, open the box.
Claire:
Open the box, charge it. Yeah, no, I mean, I think for the most part, anybody that has a deaf dog — and most, most of my clients are people that have rescued a deaf dog, not that they realized later that the dog was deaf because I think that's a different perspective. But they're like, okay, now what do we do?
And the hardest thing is you just start, square one. It's like first teach your dog attention. Period. Like you have to have to have a strong foundation in attention. I mean, that's for any dog, whether they're hearing or deaf is you need to make sure that you can get your dog's attention when you need it.
And that requires time and patience. And some impulse control on the dog's part. Right? So working through puppyhood and adolescence and having that patience to be like, okay, at some point they're going to be able to think for themselves, and that's a good time to make sure that we know what's going on.
Annie:
And any special tips or tricks, if someone's listening and has a deaf dog?
Claire:
Work that nose. Work the nose. Do scent work work your dog's nose as much as possible because it is a sense that, dogs are clearly born with noses that work really darn well, but they have to learn how to use it. They have to learn how to understand it. They have to create that pathway, a really strong pathway into the neural system. So work on as much scent work as you can.
I think it's super important for deaf dogs to be able to navigate their environment through their nose. They'll build it up over time, but if you can kind of speed it along by kind of helping them exercise their nose, if you will.
Annie:
What's like an at-home exercise, just like hiding things under cups and bowls?
Claire:
Absolutely. Otis still helps me to break down my paper products. So they're really good at recycling paper bags and boxes. I'll just pull them out and put stuff in them and hide them in certain areas. And then he goes at it, and whatever, I just sweep it up, but at least it's all broken down. So it fits nicely. It's nice and small. Doesn’t take up as much space.
Annie:
He has a job.
Claire:
Yeah he has a job. Absolutely. Yeah. And I play nose work games with him for years just in the park. And it's also because his vision is not super great. So I kind of work on strengthening that nose no matter what. So we'll be walking next to each other and I'll do a hard left turn and walk 20, maybe 20 feet from him and stop, and he'll keep walking and then he realizes that I'm not there. Then he needs to find me. And then when he does find me, he gets excited and then he'll get a little piece of kibble or something.
Annie:
Aww. Well, Claire, this has been so interesting. Thank you for taking the time. It there like a good thing you can say about working at School for the Dogs?
[laughing]
Asks your boss. I mean, I just considering all the experiences you've had, I'm wondering, I mean, I hope it's not a takeaway because I hope we're not going to be losing you anytime soon, but how would you describe the experience working at School for the Dogs as opposed to your other jobs?
Claire:
Honestly, I've learned a lot in the past year from the people that I work with. I think the wonderful thing, and one of the things that drew me to School for the Dogs is the different levels of life experiences and knowledge. Like dog training and dog behavior is not a single, there's not one track. There's just not, there's not one road, right? That's the beauty of working with a team is that it's important to have more than one pair of eyes on a case study. And I enjoy that. It's something I think is super important in all walks of the dog world.
Because you know, as we age, we tend to get a little singular in our thinking. And that's not direction I wanted to go in, which is thinking in one place. But you know, you have a completely different track than Kate has, than Anna has, than Erin has. And, it's just like we all meet in the middle.
But there's lots of different kinds of things, skills and techniques that we all used in order to kind of treat the same type of behavior, right? And pulling that all together can only do more for the dog and the dog's family than just one specific treatment plan.
Annie:
Very true. All right. You're the best. So excited that you're on this team.
Claire:
Me too.
Annie:
If people are listening and want to go to your Instagram ghost dog Otis, is that right?
Claire:
ghostdog_otis
Annie:
Ghostdog_otis for all your Otis photo needs.
Claire:
Yes. There's absolutely no science there or training advice whatsoever. It's just pictures of my dog.
Annie:
As it should be.
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