26 FebEpisode 122 | SFTD Off-Leash Manager Adam Davis on training as a teenager & developing a career specializing in helping dogs socialize
When Adam Davis came to work at School For The Dogs in late 2019, he was only in his mid-twenties but already had a decade of working with dogs professionally under his belt. In particular, his background involved a lot of hours spent helping city dogs learn to co-exist, and play, off leash. Today, he runs School For The Dogs' unique School Yard program-- a by-appointment, trainer-supervised members-only dog run -- and also oversees puppy playtimes, in addition to working private with clients. He and Annie discuss his early introduction to the world of science-based training, his interest in police dogs, his rescue dog Sonic, and more.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Book a session with Adam at schoolforthedogs.com/adam.
Learn more about School Yard and Puppy Playtime here.
The Human Half Of Dog Training
Transcript:
[Intro and Music]
Annie:
So I am here with Adam Davis. Adam, why don't you introduce yourself with your official School for the Dogs title.
Adam:
Hi, Annie, thank you for having me on. Yeah, my name is Adam Davis and I am the off-leash manager at the School for the Dogs.
Annie:
And what does that mean?
Adam:
So pretty much, we have these really cool services, it's called our Off Leash services, right? Pretty much it sounds exactly how it sounds you get to come into the school and allow your dog to be off-leash in a highly controlled and constructive kind of way. Our services are great for —
Annie:
And to be clear that the owners are there.
Adam:
Yeah. Owners are there, you're there with your dog. You're talking to other parents, you're talking to the trainer, that's there. Yeah, we definitely want people to be involved with their dog, especially when it's in an off-leash kind of setting
Annie:
And we have two different kinds off leash services, which are?
Adam:
Yes we do. Yeah. We have the puppy ones, which, you come in it's puppy play time. You get to learn a little bit about how dogs communicate to one another, when to give breaks. Really, really valuable. I would suggest this to anyone that has a puppy. It's so valuable to have our puppy socialized in a highly controlled manner. So that's the puppy side. That's the cool, that's the baby side. Right.
And then we have school yard, which is a little bit of a step up. It's for dogs that are 20 weeks and older. Very much a similar kind of structure, but a little bit more laid back, I would say. So school yard is really great for dogs that want to be social, that can communicate well. That can take communication well. And it's a great space for them to be able to come and socialize in a highly controlled manner. This is for adult dogs. Well, not really adult, but non puppies.
Annie:
Some of, some of them are adults. We have some. Well, I think the part of the reason it's maybe like less controlled as you say is because it's… I mean, puppy playtime often, it's, someone's first time there with their dog. Whereas school yard, we have people who come almost every day of the week for years, so they don't need as much as much instruction.
So why don't you talk about the process of getting into school yard. Puppy play time of course is open to puppies who’ve had at least their first round of shots.
Adam:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, schoolyard, there is a little bit of an evaluation process, right? I mean, we don't just allow every single dog that we've seen to be able to come to school yard. We have to make sure that it's a good fit for not only their dog, but for every attendee that's there. So there is a little bit of evaluation process. So we do test out, can your dog disengage from another dog? How do they greet another dog? Do they greet another dog, you know, full jumping on top, or maybe being a little intense, or maybe do they run away a little bit when other dogs greet them?
There's a lot of signals that our dogs give us, that through just really experience and knowing really what to look for you can kind of gauge whether a greeting is appropriate or not. Right. So that's definitely part of the criteria being able to greet, being able to disengage. We don't really look for fine tuned behaviors or perfect behaviors, right? No, one's perfect. No dogs’ perfect. But we really want to see is a dog that is excited to be there that actually wants to play and can follow some light instructions, especially for their first time.
Annie:
Right. Although interestingly, when we named schoolyard, part of the reason we called it school yard rather than like open play was because we wanted it to be a place where dogs could be off leash, even if they didn't want to play. Like exist, you know?
Adam:
Of course. Yeah, we definitely have those dogs. I can name a few that would just rather people watch, but the dog watch edition, you know? And it's great for those dogs to be able to socialize, and instead of going to a dog park, right. It's usually those dogs that are bullied a little bit, where they may feel a little timid or a little shy and you have some pesky young dogs at the dog park, just not really not really listening and not catching those signals and disengagement.
Annie:
It's also cool because it's like the owners are learning all the time too, of course. Andthey can often…
Adam:
Step in.
Annie:
They can step in. But I also think like we work with people who understand that their dogs don't have to be like jumping around and touching the whole time in order to be getting something out of the experience.
Adam:
Oh Exactly.
Annie:
Even if the dog is just like, kind of hanging out and watching in the corner, there's still a value there of the dog.
Absolutely. Yeah. So it's really exciting. Love doing it. Yeah. I started working at a School for the Dogs about, well, I want to say a year and three months now. November 5th, 2019.
Annie:
So why don't you tell us about your pre-School for the Dogs, the G-rated version.
Adam:
So, there is definitely a little bit of a background in just working with dogs.
Annie:
You got started kind of early.
Adam:
Yeah. A little early. So my first dog, well, it was a little kind of like my second dog, but his name was Dino. And he was a really lovely, really lovely dog.
Annie:
You’re from Jersey, right?
Adam:
Oh, no. I'm from the Bronx in Riverdale. Yeah. So I grew up in Riverdale, born in Oakland, California, shout out to all the West side people tuning in. But yeah, I was born in Oakland. I have all of my family over there, but my dad and mom were singing a lot. And so we moved around a little bit.
Annie:
What kind of singers?
Adam:
So my dad was an opera singer. My mom was actually a professional dancer. So that's how they kind of met. Yeah. So when I was born we moved around a lot. Like I lived in Germany for a year, but we settled in Washington Heights for a year. We lived right next to the Cloisters, which was absolutely beautiful. Feel totally blessed to have those kinds of memories still present. And we moved to Riverdale for like first grade, so I was there for a good 20 years of my life.
So the dog that I grew up with Dino. Really lovely dog, really big blocky head. We found him actually tied up down the block from me to a fence with a sign that says, please give me a good home. And so we already had a dog at the time. We had a Cairn terrier named Frank really, really spunky dog. Absolutely great, great first experience for a dog.
And, you know, we, we saw Dino tied up to a fence. One of my would be mentors at the time, he had his own kind of dog walking service and he was also doing training. He found Dino and he was taking care of him. And once my dad got wind that an am-staff, a pretty young, I want to say like, maybe like about like eight, eight, nine months, pretty big size already. George had him and my dad's like, yep, we'll take him without question.
We just brought him in, really, really lovely dog. You can put him in a room full of babies and he'll nurse them and take care of them. He was just that kind of dog now, however, he had some, some pretty extreme behavioral issues and concerns. So Dino was highly aggressive towards very specific particular dog. Now that I have a little bit more knowledge of dog behavior, I wouldn't necessarily say he was a status seeking dog, but he just had this hate for very specific dogs.
And it wasn't like these behaviors kind of sparked out of nowhere. There was definitely a little bit of a slow progression. And of course, our family not noticing these things at the time it quickly kind of spiraled into, Oh my gosh, we need help. Right? There was a moment. And this will always stay with me.
So when I was younger my dad was walking both Dino and Frank at the same time. So we were, we lived on the top floor in the building I used to live in, in Riverdale. And on our floor, there were no other dogs living on that floor. So you can safely assume that in the elevator, when the elevator came up, there shouldn't be any dogs in the elevator. And I remember, Oh, I remember this. From my bedroom. I remember this.
This was out in the hallway, like completely out of the thresholds and the confines of our environment. And elevator door opened up and dad just kind of haphazardly walked in, and sure enough, Rex was there. And Rex was this long haired black dachshund, which for some reason, Dino just hated, absolutely hated. He would bark. He would snarl. And we always knew if he ever got ahold of him, it would be really bad.
So in this instance, he got ahold of Rex, and in less than a couple of seconds broke two ribs, punctured a lung. And he had to go to the emergency room.
Annie:
Oh my God.
Adam:
Yeah. So it was, it was definitely one of those, Oh my gosh — and Dino was already having issues at this point. Like he was already getting way too over threshold on walks. He would snarl and bark. We couldn't get his attention. We would have to really disengage, like go a couple of blocks away if we ever saw a specific dog on walks. And at dog parks, very typical fence fighting barrier frustration, redirected on my dad once. It was def a lot.
So, we grew up with that kind of training background. So my first mentor, my would be mentor, was helping us out. And I was also working for him as well. I was also assisting him with his doggy daycare.
Annie:
You must've been a kid at this point though.
Adam:
Yeah, I started working with him probably like 15, 16, just in summers or here and there. Whenever he really needed me. I was really just like a space saver. So I would sit in the car. I would, he would instruct me if any dog walked by or any person got too close with the car, treat these specific dogs. So I was already kind of being primed for counterconditioning, desensitization. I just kind of didn't know it at the time.
Yeah I was like 15, 16. And then once I turned 18, I really wanted to dive a little bit deeper into just working with dogs. Cause I really enjoyed working with him. It was a really rewarding job. I got to be outside with like 20 to 30 dogs a day. All have different personalities. Of course you all grow to love them. But it was definitely, as I continued to work, I started to get this really nice hands on experience that really just catapulted my interest and into just dog behavior.
Annie:
So how did he help you with Dino?
Adam:
So Dino, yeah. George helped us out. just doing a lot of one-on-one sessions. We started off, I mean, he just, for the time I'm looking back into just some of the methods that we use, especially with Dino, cause like we had to carry around citronella spray with him. And he just, he within like a couple of times he'd just got desensitized to it. Like it didn't really do anything.
Annie:
Well, how does that work? You, you would spray him?
Adam:
Well, so the citronella spray is kind of like a last one of the last ditch safety efforts to kind of get your dog to either stop fighting or maybe a dog has latched onto another dog, or just trying to get your dog to disengage from somebody it's kind of a last one of the last ditch effort. So citronella spray is, a really highly concentrated spray that you spray in the dog's face and nose and it's supposed to really disorient them.
It's does not feel very good. It's supposed to get your dog to stop, whatever they're doing, in a highly, kind of like a safety conscious kind of situation, right? You want to make sure everyone is safe. You want to make sure all the dogs are safe.
So we would spray this at Dino’s face when he would react like that because he was seven 70 pound Am-Staff, he's going out for some serious blood. Like if he ever got away from us and charged that whichever dog he was reacting, it would have been very bad. It would have been absolutely horrible. So we started doing that. That's one of the suggestions that was made to us. And he just got desensitized to it.
And mind you, we were still very much amateurs at this, and we were just really at that point, just get Dino away from that dog that he's either reacting to. Oftentimes it was in the lobby, right. You get out of the elevator, into the lobby, of course, boom, there's a dog there. So there was not a lot of like treating you could do in that moment. Right. You just get Dino away, get him, get him to a manageable arousal state, get him just calm down just a little bit and then work within that distance.
So we did do a lot of behavioral adjustment therapy or BAT as people may know it. But it was definitely a challenge. It's a constant challenge. He did have friends, which was the amazing part. He did have friends where, there was this one dog friend would literally just hump his face and he would not care whatsoever. He was like, yep, this is fine. And of course we would get them off of each other and stuff.
But you know, he had success, which was awesome. He had success, he had good friends. He was able to play with these other dogs. But man, if these specific let's say golden retrievers walked by the park, like everyone would have to get their dog or else Dino would be redirecting on everyone.
And even in those moments, and we were always fascinated by this because even in those highly aroused state of, let's say the fence fighting for the golden retrievers. And we knew the parent too, the parent was like, not willing to just go ahead and cross the street like, Oh, mind-blowing, boy, that's a whole other topic we could talk about. But yeah, she would walk by right. Dino would just react, and whichever dog would then come over, also very stimulated because Dino was barking and lunging and snarling.
He would redirect on them. And even in those highly aroused states, Dino wouldn't make a single scratch on these dogs. So he still had bite inhibition. He would still maintain some level of control in those moments instead of just going and doing damage to the next dog that he sees.
But yeah, it was definitely a long process. George helped us out with a lot of counterconditioning, a lot of engage and disengage work, but it was really like after a certain point, it was all management. All management, you know, really making sure Dino just doesn't really have that opportunity to do that.
And I even remember a few moments where maybe a new dog would come into the dog park and Dino would be sitting politely letting the dog come in. And then when my dad would release Dino, all of a sudden, he’d just charge at him. Charge at him, pin him, there'd be a little scuffle. And then we would separate them, of course.
But this dog didn't have any puncture marks on him or anything like that. That's why I'm, I guess the more I think about it, there is definitely an aspect of that deference kind of high hierarchy structure that dogs can definitely have, especially in those kinds of social settings.
Annie:
Was that kind of your first introduction to dog training?
Adam:
Like behavior? Oh yeah. Definitely. Because with Frank, we never really did that with him. He was a small little Cairn Terrier, of course we would teach him sit and stuff, but we were just going off of my parents' experience, early on. But it wasn't until we had Dino we're like, okay, we actually have to dive into how dogs learn and the methods that we can do to help them just feel a little better, or do something else that's going to be just as rewarding.
Annie:
And did it make sense to you right away? Or did you feel like there needs to be a way to fix this dog rather than just management techniques?
Adam:
Yeah, I think just at the time of just the knowledge that we had you know, there really wasn't…well, I don't know, I was very young, so a lot of this stuff can be a little cloudy just in terms of our motivation for doing it. Cause I'm sure there are times where my parents, my family could kind of lacked that, or just kind of really didn't follow through with some of the training.
And then of course me, 15 year old, just being absolutely terrified. And I was like, I'm just walking my dog. I'm just going to cross straight or getting in the elevator. There wasn't that in depth knowledge of behavior that would have probably benefited us a little bit more. And who knows, maybe my parents did get that information and I'm just kinda not remembering it.
Annie:
I mean, were you at the same time watching, like the dog whisperer and thinking like this is different than what been George's telling us?
Adam:
No, definitely not. I mean, I was brought up in the positive reinforcement world. I mean, yeah, my mentor, George, he has a really interesting story too. His first dog was resource guarding and snapping at him. So George really had to dive into training. He's read all of the books that were kind of pushed to the side during that time. Right. There was still very much a sense of that balanced training, or using kind of other forceful techniques with their dogs. Very old school kind of mythologies and methodologies.
And he was the one that really brought in a lot of these kinds of techniques, especially to us. We had no idea. We wouldn't do anything forceful or any kind of mean kind of training with our dogs. We knew to use treats and all that kind of stuff, but he was really the one that, especially for us, brought positive reinforcement training into light. So I was like pretty much raised on that.
Annie:
So your first job really was working with him doing training, then.
Adam:
Kind of, yeah, we would be managing our doggy playgroups. So, some of the things that we would, some of the things that we would do we would do a lot of Waits. We would do a lot of recalls. And honestly we would do timeouts as well. We would set up a tether station. So when dogs were maybe a little pushy or a little rude to one another, we would use timeouts. It was definitely a great hands-on experience. I was able to really start to build like my timing when I reward what kind of reinforcers do I use often that was like, it hit,
Annie:
That business was picking up dogs and bringing them to the park, right?
Adam:
Correct. Yeah. We had a van and we would gut out the back. We would put down a rug, we would have one crate in the back and we would have a morning and an afternoon playgroup. So we would mostly start around about like eight or nine, go pick up the early morning dogs. So usually it could span anywhere per, per dog run. It could span anywhere between 10 to 15 dogs, maybe at a time. We always wanted to make sure everything was nice and safe.
And we would take them to the park, let them run for an hour. Put them back in the car, pickup, drop off more dogs, and then have the afternoon run. And then after that, we would drop them off. and then, and then we would end our day.
Annie:
So you really have like a long background in, in working with dogs off leash.
Adam:
Oh, yes. Oh yeah.That's like, that is my specialty. That is definitely my specialty. One can say I've been groomed to do this.
Annie:
I think one thing that's interesting about that is that it's not how most people think about dog training. I'm guessing most people picture dog training as something that happens, the trainer comes to your home, or you go to a facility, a basement somewhere, and everybody's lined up with a dog leash and a trainer standing in front of the room.
But the idea that training is happening while dogs can be off leash and in some cases with their owners not present, that's what you were doing before, at least, might be, might be an unusual thing. But they certainly are still learning, right?
Adam:
Oh yeah. Definitely. It's definitely an ongoing process, you know? I always like to think,training really never stops for dogs, and it's always in a lot of different capacities, even when you know, the parent isn't there. Like what is the dog's motivator in any kind of situation? What are they getting out of it? Is it fun? Is it not? And in these kinds of situations, we're really practicing impulse control and proper manners, making sure everyone's having fun and being safe, even when their parents aren't there, which is great. Which is amazing.
Annie:
What what kind of reactions do you tend to get from people who come to the first time to play time, or school yard? Do you feel like you witness aha moments?
Adam:
Oh yeah, definitely. I really like the wide spectrum of the people that come in, especially for play times. I get a lot of people that had experience with puppies, or I haven't had experience, just in general. And it's really great to be able to hear those, Oh my gosh, this is so great.
I had one of those moments the other day where this dog Newton who has just kinda been struggling with finding his confidence and feeling comfortable around other dogs. It's just been a really slow progression. And yesterday we had a little bit of a one-on-one playtime with this dog that I knew, surefire knew that he was going to play with. And they were playing for 30 minutes straight. And it was absolutely amazing. It was great. It was definitely one of those, Oh my gosh, this is awesome!
Annie:
You're like a matchmaker.
Adam:
Yeah. Right. And that's what I always tell people. A lot of times we get like a really shy or timid puppy, and play doesn't always happen at puppy playtime, you know? And that's the important thing. That's what people really need to understand about socialization, is that not all, they looking at each other is almost good enough. Just the fact that they're in the same room together. Being able to look at each other and engage in one way or another is great for them. Yeah.
Annie:
Yeah. Just, I think is so important too, but there are occasionally people who come in and I think are disappointed that it's not what they expected.
Adam:
Oh sure.
Annie:
[inaudible] All the time, but I try to explain that we have to keep things small and control. And unfortunately, sometimes that means it's maybe not the perfect fit for every single dog there, but that we don't make playtime as like a one-off thing. Like it should be something
Adam:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Socialization doesn't just stop after one time, you know?
Annie:
So you're doing private sessions too now, right?
Adam:
Yes. Yes. I'm doing private sessions. I started taking on puppy clients, probably when we opened back up after COVID late summer, I want to say like, July, August, I started taking on some privates here and there, and those have been really, really great.
Annie:
Tell me about the experience of starting to do private sessions.
Adam:
Yeah. I mean, obviously your adrenal glands are going to be acting up. Right. That's going to happen. You know, it's very, very normal, it just means you're alive. Right. If anyone says they're not nervous or they don't have a little bit of angst to them, like, I don't believe them one bit. Absolutely not.
Annie:
I remember when I started out, I mean, eventually I was like, Oh my God, I'm doing this on autopilot, which is actually kind of a reason for me to like not do it so much anymore because I felt like, people don't deserve Annie on autopilot. But I know in the beginning I felt like, I know, I know so much, and I know I can help these people, but I don't know how to communicate these things in a way that is that I feel comfortable doing. And it felt like this bottleneck feeling.
Adam:
Sure. I's so interesting. Cause you can have all like all of the knowledge and kind of the background, but the other part to these sessions is one making sure, obviously, you're communicating that to the client in a way that makes sense and the way that's kind of specific towards them.
And really one of the things that I've kind of learned, especially through School for the Dogs, is just to be a little bit more sensitive with puppy clients. Just choosing different vernacular here and there, and just making sure that they're heard is very, very important. I always tell people that, part of my job is working, you know, 70% of my job is really is working with people's. 30% of is the dogs. The dog part is easy, the human part to it, that's the challenge, you know?
Annie:
Have you read that book? There's a great book on the human half of dog training.
Adam:
So I actually got that from Kate. So I've been meaning to read it.
Annie:
I haven't looked at it in a while, but when I did read it, I got a lot out of it. But, I think my takeaways from years working with dogs, especially puppies and clients, was, like you said, being, an empathetic listener. Helping people understand that their problems are not necessarily unique, but also real. And not spewing anything that could come off as judgment before laying down the sciency background.
I remember early on, I said, I must have said something about like… I think it was in a puppy playtime I was running or something. I said something about like what kind of relationship do you want to have with your dog? Like, do you want to have a relationship that's about you yelling at your dog and yanking your dog around–
Adam:
And how did the person react to that?
Annie:
Well, I guess they ended up like leaving a Yelp review about like how judgemental and everything. I mean, in the moment I wasn't judging them, I was just talking out loud, but I guess they felt like, well, I do that stuff with my dog and dah, dah, dah. And I felt bad about it. Cause I felt like, it's true. Like you can't say these things without assuming that people are starting at zero.I mean, when I think about the kinds of things I did with my old dog Amos, when he was a puppy before I knew anything, I probably would have felt judged too if somebody had come in.
But one thing about our approach that I feel works, is starting. Or if not starting at least not shying away from talking about the science behind stuff. Cause it's hard to argue with it. And it's also not something that most people I think have ever thought about. And when you can see that these are not just ideas and opinions, but that there's actual science behind it. I think it takes away some of the bad feelings one might have about having done things that were not rooted in science simply because like you didn't know, you know what I mean?
Adam:
Sure. It's less more of like, Oh, this is the moral compass that you should be following and you're horrible for not following it. Which I feel like, you know, people definitely kind of get to that assumption when they hear stuff like this, because they feel bad. But you know, if you're really just being objective, and like, Oh my gosh, okay, I need to just stop what I'm, what I'm doing with my dog. And just understand that this is just kind of either a method or methodology that you've believed in the past, and we know we need to just now move forward, just better training for our puppies and just kind of accepting that.
But I definitely, I definitely hear what you're saying in terms of bringing out the science, just presenting it to them and letting them make their interpretations after that. I mean, you can't really make interpretations out of anything scientific or any data research. But I think that's what takes the personal side out of it.
Annie:
And like, you probably heard me go off on this before, but like, I get like frustrated about like the word positive, because I feel like it gets misused so much of the time as like, we’re nice, happy stars and flowers and rainbows, like trainers who are always “positive.” Where it's like, no, it's not positive like we're nice all the time. It’s positive in like the form of addition, like we're trying to add something to encourage behavior. It's not like a moral or ethical stance even though, I mean, I think it is moral.
Adam:
Oh yeah, but it's definitely very scientific. I mean, there's fear free and all of that kind of stuff, which is definitely a way more of the moral compass than, you know, just really making sure that we're not forcing our dogs to do anything or we're not instilling any kind of fear whatsoever. And with all of that other stuff with, you know, even positive punishment or negative reinforcement, there can definitely be aspects of fear.
Annie:
Tell me about your dog.
Adam:
Oh my dog. Yes. So my dog is love of my life. Her name is Sonic and she is a 40 pound pit mix. I'm not sure what she's mixed with. I've been dying to get a DNA panel on her because she has this kind of weird body. And I've been looking up different breeds. I'm like, Oh, that looks like her face. That looks like her body.
Because she has this not really pity body, but she definitely has the face of a pit. She has like web toes, like she has really long fingers, which are really weird. But she's super cute. She's like the perfect size. Like the reason why I probably wouldn't get a huge am-staff is just because I live in the city. And just the fact that maybe I would have to move would be a huge deterrent just because, big dog. Not a lot of, not a lot of apartments are gonna want a big dog regardless of the breed.
But Sonic is literally the perfect size, I can say she's 30 pounds and theyll be like oh Okay cool.
Annie:
Where did you get her from?
Adam:
So I got her from Westchester society. They were really, really lovely. I knew the director of training at the time. And during my interest in just being like, you know what, I want to be a dog trainer, cause I was going to school at nights to be a K9 cop. I was going to John Jay. Oh yeah.
So I definitely, even at the time, I definitely still wanted to work the animals, but I wanted the health benefits, the steady paycheck, all of that kind of stuff. And I was like, Oh, this will be fine. And after learning about it and then paying out of pocket, cause I wasn't getting financial aid at the time, I was like, you know what, screw this. I'd rather place my money towards going to seminars and doing something else with dogs. And I'd already been kind of teetering on that.
So the director of trainings, Bobby. She suggests that, if you want to be a dog trainer, you have to get a dog because at the time I just didn't have one. This was a couple years after Dino's passing. So I was kind of flirting with getting a dog for a little bit. And the funny thing is, so my girlfriend at the time, she was looking up dogs on their website. And as soon as she heard that I was kind of interested. She was like, Oh my gosh, great.
So she pulled up this dog, her name was Polly. And she looked kind of like a Jackal. She didn't look as attractive as I wanted her to look. You know, that may sound really vain and shallow, but you know, I wanted a dog that's going to be as —
Annie:
Ass good looking as you.
Adam:
[Laughs] There you go. I wanted, as soon as I saw it, and be like, Oh my gosh, that was a beautiful dog. I definitely wanted something like that. I there to be that little level of attraction. So, but as soon as I went to the shelter, I was like, let's go ahead and see Polly. Cause Bobby actually suggested Polly to me. And I saw her, her coat looked a lot better. She put on some weight. I'm like, Oh my gosh, wow. This dog is so beautiful.
And so I went up to her little crate. And of course she's jumping up. She's like whining. So she they thought she was a puppy when she first came in because of how small she was, but she had all of her adult teeth. So she was mostly around maybe like they speculated a year to two year. That's kinda how old she was.
And, so, comparing her pictures, she looked a lot better. So I got her inside of their little room that they had, that little training room. And Bobby already told everyone that I was coming there, just put her in the room with Adam. It's like our trainer’s coming. And they threw a couple of toys for her. She did this really just sporadic kind of like, yeah, I'm gonna jump on the toy and act like a velociraptor. It was super cute. And you know, as soon as I got down on the ground, she crawled into my lap and I'm like, yep. That's it, you're coming home with me.
I saw one other dog. And I'm like, Nope. I immediately signed the papers. Like I knew that that was that. Yeah, it was really great. So I got her in 2016. I've had her since.
Annie:
And do you do training with her?
Adam:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So I've done some,she's really good at some scent work. And so I do a lot of stuff around the house. I'll put her in my room and I'll place her food, especially all around the apartment and really random places, and go find it. And she puts her nose down for a good 20 to 30 minutes. She absolutely loves doing that. She knows a good amount of tricks.
She has really great impulse control behaviors, when we do leave it and stuff like that, she'll completely like, turn her head away from the tree while still drooling and salivating. She's a really spunky dog. She loves to cuddle. She is a very tactile kind of dog. She wants to be on top of you. She wants to be touching you. She likes the warmth of a human body.
One of her little quirky kind of traits is when she gets a little excited and a little aroused, she starts to do these like donkey noises. So she'll make like, [donkey sound] it's cute for a bit, but you know, if you've lived with her for a good four or five years, it’s like, all right, this is a little annoying. But yeah, she's, she's an absolute great dog.
She can be a little socially inept sometimes. And I think that could just be from her background, which I have no clue about. Because she's a rescue. She gets a little over aroused sometimes and sometimes she could be a little weird with people, if I'm being frank, if I’m being candid.
So weird with people what this will look like. So she'll solicit attention. She'll go up to a person and she'll come up and smell them, have really nice loose body. Like I could just tell the way she's standing is nice and relaxed. She'll go up to the person, smell them. And then as soon as the person pets, she will lunge towards their face or lunge towards their immediate center of mass.
And she's never made any kind of contact. It's always a get away from me. I don't like being pet like this. And I don't like you handling me like this. And oftentimes it can look a lot different too. Sometimes she'll maybe jump up, and this is partly my fault to be honest. Cause I've allowed her to jump when I first got her. Cause I just wanted her to greet me at the door.
And, of course now I’m reaping the consequences of that because when dogs just naturally jump up, they work themselves up a little bit more, right. you know, they're utilizing their muscles. They're pushing themselves up. It's just naturally, they get a little bit more roused and stimulated. So when Sonic would jump up on someone and this person would be petting her, she would then start to growl, get really stiff. Her pupils will dilate. Her ears will be pinned back just a little bit. And then, she'll make some kind of either vocalization or some kind of snap.
Never made any contact on anyone. And usually what I do with people, especially when they first greet her, one they're not allowed to pet her for a little bit. They have to play hard to get, they have to play hard to get, they have to reward her. Just to establish that association of, Hey, I'm fine. I'm not going to hurt you. I mean, you no harm. I want her to start to like people.
But it's definitely been a journey for me with her. Because, I wouldn’t say I was delusional a while ago, but like, I grew up with Dino, right? I grew up with a dog that just absolutely loved people. You can do whatever you want it to him. And he was totally fine. Kids, old people, like everyone, didn't matter. As long as you were a human, you were great.
But with Sonic, it could be a little different. And I think I saw the progression of Sonic's behavior throughout the years, without any kind of intervention from me. Cause I feel like I was very, still young in my career. So I wasn't really sure how to handle it. And I just allowed her to, one, feel uncomfortable. Cause I can safely assume that even though she's soliciting attention, she definitely gets to that point of, Oh my gosh, I'm uncomfortable. I don't like this. How do I get this person away from me as quickly as possible?
And throughout the years, probably no one has really listened to her until she's exhibited those behaviors. And it was my fault for not acknowledging those, and to seek out some kind of help with it. Like I just kinda wanted to think that that wasn't happening in a way. And I think that's kind of, you know, what I'm dealing with now, especially, and she's doing it a lot more, pretty consistently with almost every person that she meets.
Annie:
Maybe you need to work with a trainer
Adam:
[Laughs] Maybe I need to reach out to a trainer. But usually as long as she knows you, you're in the clear, you're great. But new people, Oh yeah, she can get real if they go over her head, if they stare at her a little bit. Oh yeah. She has her triggers. I feel like I've gotten a good, accurate picture of what I really need to do for her, at least when it comes to people handling her.
Annie:
You need to train people also too.
Adam:
Yeah, exactly. And that's the trouble too. Like that's what I've been practicing recently. It's really being vocal of no, no petting her! And being really strict about that, and being vocal about it. Cause I kind of still in that place. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this interaction was making me uncomfortable, please don't snap, please don't snap. You know?
And now I have very strict rules.If it's a new person, that’s let's say coming over, or I'm taking her somewhere, I'm always bringing treats, high value treats. I'm always allowing her to only smell and greet for a few seconds. Then I'll disengage her, do a sit, do some relaxation work. I don't think I've seen any real progression, especially with new people, but with the people that she already knows, they already kind of know how to handle her.
So I've kind of gotten my friend group and my family to really be on board with how to handle her. So this way, I'm at least controlling a little bit of the mishandling of her just from a rehearsal basis. I don't want her to kind of rehearsing this behavior and feel like she has to exhibit these behaviors.
So nowadays, like I just had a few people over, all friends and there, and she was perfect with them. Absolutely perfect with them. Which made me happy.
Annie:
Here's a question. So, probably the most famous trainer of our time is The Dog Whisperer, and he is a man. And yet, if you go to conferences there are very few dog training conferences, there's usually very few men there. You work at School for the Dogs, which is owned by two women. And I think gosh, what do we have? Something, what like six, how many trainers do we have? Six trainers? Majority are women. Majority of people on our staff are women.
Why? Why do you think, I guess to two-part question: why do you think it's such a female oriented field, and what is that like for you? Or maybe it doesn't matter at all?
Adam:
No, I think that's an excellent question. Not a lot of people know that, and our world and in our industry, it is definitely female dominated. Which I think is awesome. I think it's amazing. And I think the proof is in the pudding when it comes to the success of especially like what we do, and with our mythologies, I think it's really easy for a guy. Let's say just a male, to resort to training with pain, because I have to make my dog do something I have to make them do this. I definitely feel like it's very easy for men to get there than for women to get there.
I feel like women are just more nurturing, just naturally, alone. They're a lot more nurturing. I feel like they’re a lot more empathetic. And I feel like the temptation for, or maybe not even the temptation, but just the wanting to take teaching from an approach of no pain, no fear whatsoever.
I feel like thats, I wouldn't say makes more — I'm trying to find the words for that without potentially sounding offensive. [Laughs] But you get my gist, right?
Annie:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah,
Adam:
Yeah. But yeah, I think it's great. Like some of the guys that I've met are really great trainers, they don't train with any pain. And of course I've seen a lot, a lot more males using balanced training or using some force and coercion or some dominance theory training, which of course has been debunked. And I think it could also be in be an upbringing thing too, but I don't think that that has any real correlation.
Annie:
I find myself as, you know, your boss — I mean, not just you, but all like all the men on our staff, which is not that many, but I feel myself being protective of you guys in a way that's like maybe unexpected. And certainly, I don't think gender, gender is the first thing that we consider about anyone we hire. But I feel like…
I don't know, like one time someone on staff refered to you as like a dude. And I felt like…both Kate and I were like, that's,
Adam:
Likel, come on now.
Annie:
I mean, I guess there’s worse things than being called a dude, but like, I dunno if someone referred to a woman on staff as a chick, it might…
Adam:
“That's such a chick thing”
Annie:
Yeah. Right. But it's like, we live in this moment of where we're all like hypersensitive to this stuff. So I find myself in the unusual perhaps position of being a female boss worried about protecting my male staff from discrimination.
Adam:
I wonder if there's a way to collect the data and to do some kind of research of why the training while, especially our kind of training. The positive reinforcement movement. Using that kind of scientific method — is dominated more by women.
Annie:
Well, what was it like? So I'm curious about your studies at John Jay. How long did you do that and what was it like?
Adam:
So I went to John Jay at night, so I was also working for George during the day. I would work Monday through Friday. And I got to the point where, he actually moved to Wisconsin and I was managing his business for him. So I was running it for him. We hired someone else who I became really, really close with. I would go to school at night. I’d only take like one class, maybe two classes per semester. I got the equivalent of like an associates, like that many credits.
Annie:
And were you working with dogs or, or not?
Adam:Speaker 2: (22:02)
At John Jay? Oh, no, so John Jay, I was just getting my criminal justice degree so I could have more promotional opportunities. Still having that mentality of just get a degree, you could do something else, but just get a degree, this way you have it.
Annie:
What is the progression then if you have that degree, then do you go to school to become a cop?
Adam:
So with the NYPD, you have to have one, either four years military service. And I was actually, before going back to school to John Jay, I was trying to get into the air force so I can do this. You either need military service or you need like 60 credits or something like that.
Annie:
Basically like an associates
Adam:
It's like the equivalent. Like you don't have to have your degree to be a cop, but you have to have some kind of schooling in order to do that. So there is definitely a requirement, but I wanted to just get my degree just to have it with, with the NYPD. And this is what kind of deterred me away from being a K9 cop.
Cause once you’re K9 cop, you're pretty much stuck there. Cause they want you — one, the dog though, your partner that you're going to get. You're going to be working with that partner for a really long time. You're gonna be working with that canine for a really long time. They want someone to be consistent, to know what they're doing with the canine and to have like some really great experience.
So once you get there, you're pretty much staying there. So no promotion opportunities in the terms of like, you know, just higher ranks, of course I'll get like, you know, pay raises throughout the year.
Annie:
Did you meet people who were K9 cops?
Adam:
No, not really. I mean, I would just, go to school with just like regular 18, 19 year olds, maybe even older because I was going to school at night. But no, I didn't. The only person that I met was like a corrections officer and he came to class one day. But my schooling wasn't nearly as hands-on as like, Oh, I'm going to go to NYPD, take a tour, get other experience from canine officers. This is all just like research, really diving in, getting people's accounts.
And just the more I did that, the more I was like, yeah, Nope, don't want to do that. And some of the methods, like George, my person, I keep referencing. Yeah. One of my mentors, he was like, yeah, you're not going to like the training that you're going to do with the dogs. He showed me videos of, you know, because they have to get the dog into a highly aroused state just to get them to either bite or something like that. I remember that's when he was like, you're not going to like the methods that they would use to do that. I'm like, fair enough.
Annie:
I'm always so curious when I see the dogs at like the airports and whatever. I always think like, what would you need to do? Not that I have ever smuggled drugs or would want to smuggle drugs, but I think like, I bet like a dog trainer would have a better time smuggling drugs.
Adam:
Oh, definitely. Oh, absolutely. Beyond a doubt, like all right, how do we get more smells on this item to ward off the scents, right.
Annie:
And pack the drugs in like chopped meat.
Adam:
Yeah. There you go. Chop the meat or like take sock, rub your dog on the sock. So it smells like a dog. Oh yeah. You know, I'm sure us dog trainers. I'm sure we could come up with some ways, that may be like a product idea.
Annie:
HBO show waiting to happen.
Adam:
Yeah. There you go.
Annie:
I thought it would be fun to have a class that like, well, we've done some scent work classes. I'd love to do more, but I thought it would be fun at some point to have a class that's like, teach your dog to find your weed.
Adam:
Yeah. That'd be great. That's awesome.
Annie:
Both a party trick and kind of useful.
Adam:
Use your dog’s nose, sure.
Annie:
Or even just like teach your dog to find keys or something like that.
Adam:
Yeah. Oh, sure. It's so funny, talking about sense of smell. One of the things that always baffles me and a lot of the people, puppy parents that come to the school, they're like, it's so interesting. I toss a treat and they're supposed to have a good sense of smell. It just takes them forever to find it. And I'm like, yeah, it's always funny to see dogs, especially puppies, just not know really how to use their nose very well or, you know, stuff like that.
I always tell them, I'm like, think of it kind of like a spidey sense. Right? It's you have all of this information. Because they have different smells constantly all the time. So you have, I'm not sure what's the time difference of how many more they have than us, but they have definitely have more than double the amount of sensors that we have in our nose.
Annie:
I think it's funny when people are like, Oh, he smells my dog on me and I'm like, Oh, maybe, or maybe he smells the cologne of that guy that you hooked up with three days ago. Or your lunch. Or maybe he smells the mustard that you had in your sandwich Wednesday.
Adam:
And I've always said this. Like, if I was to be a standup comedian, if I was going to do a little comedy show, I would always open with this. I'd be like, Hey, how's it going, everyone? So know I really love dogs. I love dogs. I always loved working with them. Dogs have the best sense of smell in the world. They can probably smell what you had for lunch a few hours ago, but they have to be this close to poop. (I would like to take my hand, put it right close). This close to poop to smell it. They just have to do it. They have to almost stick it down their throat in order to smell it. It's just absolutely boggles my mind
Annie:
Or when people think like their dog peed on the bed to spite them or whatever.
Adam:
Oh yeah, they don’t do that.
Annie:
Dogs love their pee.
Adam:
They’re like, ooh, I'm going to bless my parents with some pee.
Annie:
I offer you a gift.
Adam:
Oh my gosh. Sonic used to do that. When I first got her, she would do this like submissive pee when we would come home and she was on the bed, were like, Hey, Sonic. And she'd roll over. We pet her and then boom, she'd pee on the bed. Like Ahhh, no! Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Oh Dogs. What we do for them.
Annie:
Well, Adam, it's been really fun to talk to you.
Adam:
Yes. Thank you for having me on, this is great.
Annie:
It's fun to do these interviews, if only to just get a reason to like talk to someone I work with for an hour, without it being like a zoom meeting. Great. Well if someone is looking for you online, I know they can book with you at schoolforthedogs.com/Adam. And you're also doing some classes these days. Right, are you teaching any classes right now?
Adam:
So I'm doing, I'm doing a lot of puppy kindergartens. I have one on Tuesdays, soon to be two on Tuesdays. One on Sundays.
Annie:
And you’re doing them both in person and virtually, right?
Adam:
So, in person. I do virtually just kind of like when it's needed, or if someone needs me to fill in for them, but mostly in-person. And then I'm also doing, if anyone is really interested in this class, I am teaching Barkour. It is a great class yet. I started off shadowing Annie and, yeah I shadowed you when I first was hired. I was just trying to fill my schedule with things. And I'm like, Ooh, Barkour. I want to maybe potentially teach that.
Annie:
How do you describe our bar core to people?
Adam:
Right. A play on words of parkour, but for dogs. So what we do, the main benefit of this class is to create obstacle courses for your dog, not only inside, but of course, outside as well. It is a great class to be able to engage your dog's mind and body specifically their core using their body in different ways that they're not really accustomed to, and really having that satisfied. Exercise and satisfy some kind of enrichment that your dog may be craving.
And of course, when COVID hit, this was the class to teach because I was able to say, Oh yeah, no, put that plunger over here or this chair over here. And really give people the tips and tricks necessary in order to engage their dogs when they can't go to the dog park, or maybe it’s too cold, or maybe they're stuck inside for too long. And their dog is about to rip off the paint on their walls. Right. It definitely happens
Annie:
Well that’s what’s so cool about it, I think, is that it's all stuff that you can do with stuff in your apartment.
Adam:
Exactly. In home, at home stuff that just lying around that you could just use to get your dog.
Annie;
Like beer cans and broomsticks.
Adam:
Yeah, and like plungers, you know, go jump over a plunger, jump inside of a box, you know? Oh yeah, it's great. And one of the things we always love to teach is we start to build the foundation for a handstand. So we'll place something behind the dog and start to shape them for slowly backing up, lifting up their paws. Oh yeah. It's great. Great class. I love teaching it.
The first rotation that we brought back since COVID when we shut down, just came back. Highly recommended to anyone's dog that loves to move around, that's really motivated or anyone that just wants to really engage their dog in a different way.
Annie:
Yeah. It really gives you a lot of ideas. Actually. Maybe I should get Jason, my husband, to take it because I think he wouldn't think about training Poppy on his own, but when he has the structure of a class, he really enjoys spending that time with her. Anyway, Adam, such a pleasure.
If you are interested in working with Adam, he has a puppy kindergarten six-week class coming up starting March 10th, another one on April 6th, you can book a private lesson with him schoolforthedogs.com/Adam. And he is also on Instagram at good_doggo26.
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