11 MarEpisode 127 | Dog Training Q and A! 3/11/2021: Bringing a fearful puppy onto the city streets and/or to the dog park
This is a bonus episode: A recording of a live Q and A.
Here, Annie talks to an SFTD client who has a young rescue dog who became frightened about going outside after some bad experiences on walks. The owner has been bringing the dog to off-leash time at School For The Dogs in NYC and wants Annie's thoughts on bringing him to the dog park.
Join Annie Grossman for a live Q and A most Thursdays on Instagram @schoolforthedogs.
Get alerted about the next one or ask a question in advance at schoolforthedogs.com/qanda
She also sometimes goes live to answer questions on Clubhouse. Find her there: @anniegrossman.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Lili Chin's book Doggie Language
Liquid Treat Dispenser – Store For The Dogs
School for the Dogs Community App
Dog Body Language Online Course
Learn more about off-leash offerings:
Transcript:
Annie:
So Katie with her dachshund mix. Katie wrote:
I got three-ish months old Sunny on January 13th and he has settled in swimmingly. He's happy go lucky, playful, but overall, very calm and observant. One standout example. When a stranger came in the house briefly, he all blinked at him. He only barks in the mornings to get out of his crate. He's crate trained and he sleeps for around eight hours every night.
The issue: he was with foster mom on a farm before coming to be in Brooklyn and was increasingly skittish on our initial walks to the park. Note, he was on pain meds from his neutering at first. As days oere on and pain meds wore off this continued. So I started picking him up and walking him to the park. Eventually he didn't want to go outside at all.
We had a couple of unfortunate incidents that may have sped up the snowballing, including spooky home alone, where the passers-by, and one Pitbull that got a little too close sending Sunny between my boots and then yelping like a car alarm. I tried using treats, but after day five of growing anxiety, frankly, on both of our parts, I stuck to a pee pad in our backyard and we've since had great success with him going on command on the pads, both inside and outside.
My question, how soon is too soon to hit the sidewalk and or the park? He's had two rounds of vaccinations and we're going to puppy socialization class at School for the Dogs on Monday.
But again, she wrote this like a month ago and she just wrote me a little bit of an update. Let me see if I can find it, but I did also invite her to come on to chat here. So earlier today she wrote:
Hi, Annie, I've been meaning to email all week. My apologies, I'm hoping to hop on at 3:00 PM today to discuss my puppy Sunny’s socialization. I messaged you some details about his development acclimating to city sounds, et cetera, and how amazing two puppy play times with Mike were as a stepping stone to going to the park around the block.
We did have a negative experience with a nippy dog and another jumpy big boy at the park recently, but we are now home in Connecticut where we're A) socializing successfully with mom’s small dogs and B) experimenting more with off-leash play and potty time in the backyard. Would love to talk about how this could pick up in the park though. I don't know if that's ever something I should be confident doing. Hopefully see you soon.
All right. So some really good things that Katie brought up here actually echoes a conversation I was having with another dog trainer recently about taking dogs to the park at all. We have this idea of what it's going to be like to get a dog and go to the park, and be that person with our coffee and our nice little dog who's going to go all around the park and sniff and play with other people and other dogs nicely.
But the truth is, I think the dog park is not really the right place for every dog. And sometimes we have ideas about what it's going to be like that simply aren't realistic. Actually the conversation I was having was with our trainer, Mike who runs the playtime's Katie has been going to. I was interviewing him for School for the Dogs podcast for an upcoming episode. And he and I were kind of brainstorming, comparing notes about what to tell people about bringing dogs to dog parks and suggestions to give.
And one thing I said in the conversation is sometimes I suggest if you have a dog who you want to be a dog park dog, try going to the dog park yourself. You want to get good at sort of eyeballing what it's like, what dogs are doing at the dog park. You want to get good at reading dog behavior. You want to get good at spotting issues, spotting potential problems before you start bringing your dog there at all.
Mike suggested, never being sure that you're going to the dog park. Always go to the dog park and kind of check it out before you ever go in, because you want to make sure it's the right mix of dogs for your dog. If you decided, however, that you never wanted to bring Sunny to the dog park at all, honestly, that would be okay with me.
One reason that we have school yard, which is our off-leash adult play time, and puppy play time, which is playtime for puppies at School for the Dogs, is because we feel that puppies need that off-leash time, but that it's best if they can get it in like a really controlled environment where there is basically a trainer there to act as a lifeguard. And there's also a trainer there to help people learn how to observe dog play when to intervene, et cetera, et cetera.
So I'd say, keep coming to our play times if you can. Keep coming to our school yards, you know, as he gets older, that's those are for dogs five months and older. Because it's a safe place for him where he's going to be developing his social skills and you're going to get better and better at noticing what does, and doesn't look good as far as dog play goes.
I especially worry about bringing puppies to dog parks because if you have an older dog, who's had a lot of different social experiences in his life, and that older dog has a bad experience at the dog park, it's on top of, ideally it's on top of many, many, many, many good experiences. If you have a young dog who has a bad experience at a dog park that could become kind of like a foundational life experience. And we want to curate our puppy's worlds as much as possible to make sure that their experiences are only good, especially with other dogs.
Yeah, there are going to be people on the street, dogs on the street that you can't control. But what you can control is where you're walking on the street and what associations your dog is making on the street. If you're worried about going outside at all, I would suggest that you start bringing his meals outside and feeding him his meals outside. It can be that simple.
Now that might mean dumping all of his kibble into a treat pouch and giving it to him piece by piece. It might mean just taking his dog food bowl and stepping out onto the sidewalk and putting it down there. If you're at your family's, it sounds like you're in Connecticut, if it's a more suburban area, maybe drive to like the main street and do it on the sidewalk of the main street in whatever town you're in, so that there's a little bit more activity.
But you know, I'm always saying dogs don't need to, most dogs don't need to learn to feel good about bending over a bowl of food in the kitchen. Most dogs have enough good feelings about being in the kitchen where you're probably feeding them, but you can feed them in a new place in order to try and create a good new association. And if he's feeling worried about being outside on busy streets, then you want to start creating a new association with that.
If he's too scared to eat outside at all, to eat his regular meal at all, then that's also information. If that's the case then you might want to try, like in the lobby of your building, or some sort of place that's kind of outside, but not quite. Or you could try with something way more high value, you know, get out some like hot dogs, sausage, cheese, boiled chicken, roast beef, whatever. And see if he'll take that, you know, his regular food might not be enticing enough.
Beyond that if you can actually get him moving, I want you to just get like a really good rhythm down of giving him that delicious stuff while you're outside. Liquid treat dispensers are great for that. We have you can get hours at Store for the Dogs. Actually, I think there's a a short link schoolforthedogs.com/ltd. That's our liquid treat dispenser that we use.
Oh, look, Katie is here. Hey Katie, I'm trying to let you join here. Katie, can you hear me?
Katie:
Hi. I wasn't sure my connection was working. How are you,
Annie:
Good. How are you doing
Katie:
Good. Just back in Connecticut from Brooklyn with Sunny who is, hold on. I'm trying to turn the camera. Who is having a grand old time.
Annie:
Hi Sunny
Katie:
Or that's my mom’s dog, the white dog over there who's very much a toy with very few canine instincts. So Sunny spends a lot of his time trying to teach her how to play it seems like. But it's been a great opportunity to have him kind of roam freely. I'm lucky that I have a backyard in Brooklyn. So we've been experimenting with off-leash-ness.
But I'm just curious, I guess my overarching thing to pick up is whether or not you think that off-leash is something that is doable in the city. I'm just curious what the School for the Dogs philosophy is on that. B
Annie:
So I was actually,I was talking about it. I think you maybe missed what I was saying, but I'll just start again. But I was basically saying, as I read your question before you joined, I was basically saying that I think dog parks can be really tricky. And that the best kind of dog park, I think is a dog park like we run, where there's someone in charge, where we are controlling which dogs are there, where you have an opportunity to have someone who can kind of coach you learning about what is and isn't appropriate behavior.
I think the more the more of that kind of off-leash experience, you have, the better you're going to be at negotiating public dog runs, if you choose to do that later on. That it's gonna help you just become a more educated dog park goer. Because I think so much of it is about us humans learning how to spot problems before they happen.
And the problem, I think dog parks really should have lifeguards or someone in charge. I mean, I experienced it all the time when I'm at a dog park where I feel like I want to step in or say something, but it's like, nobody has the authority to say anything to anyone at the dog park. And so it's like, you're just like asking for a fight.
That's great that you have outdoor space. I tend to think that dogs play best one-on-one. So if you can identify some good playmates for him. I don't know if you've checked, we have this new app our community app. You can go to schoolforthedogs.com/community to join. but one goal for that app is just that like, to help people try and find other people who they might be able to have play dates with for their dogs, especially younger dogs. It's so important that they get that that time to like get their yayas out.
And I was also just talking about how, if he seems at all spooked about being outside, especially on busy streets, maybe take advantage of the fact that you're in Connecticut where I'm sure there's probably like a Main street somewhere that's like more city-like, but not like totally New York City, where you can like go sit there and bring his whole meal. And either give it to him piece by piece or let him eat it out of a bowl. But just as a way to help him, like create good associations with all the things that you're going to see out there while you're sitting on a bench or whatever on the sidewalk.
And you can also practice walking down that kind of fake, not fake city, but you know what I mean? Not really like New York city, like street, but still like a little bit, maybe more urban than your parents' house. Just practice light. Yeah. Right, like city light — practice just taking five, six steps and giving a treat at your leg, taking five, six steps, giving a treat at your leg. I've been doing this with my dog who is only seven months old and is still herself getting used to being on the sidewalk.
Sometimes it can feel silly, but it really works wonders when you either just pick a number, like every seven steps, this dog is going to get a treat at my leg. Or sometimes I'll say every time I get to the bumper of a parked car or every time I get to a streetlight or a hydrant, like I'll pick some kind of arbitrary marker. So I'm not even really paying attention to her behavior. I am just paying attention to some kind of marker so that I'm reminded to give her a treat at that time. And I try and give it pretty consistently like near my knee, because I wanted to kind of like default to being in that spot. And then I'll also give her a treat whenever she turns back to look at me at all.
And of course the more that you're like giving her these random regular treats by your knee or wherever it is. And I do either side because I don't care too much which side she wants doesn't really matter. But the more you do that, the more like they do look back at you cause they're like, you got something for me, you got something for me. So then you can like capture those moments.
And you're both like giving them something to do outside. I think you're enhancing their good feelings about being outside. You're boosting their confidence, and you're letting them know like, Hey, I'm here and I'm looking out for you. So other triggers, like as soon as I see another dog, whether or not I know she's seeing the other dog, I'll give that treat. I don't let her say hi to other dogs on the street. Not because I'm against dog socializing, I just would rather she see another dog and it be a cue to look back at me.
So I really like training that is about us controlling what we're doing, rather than us trying to control what they're doing. But being smart about it in such a way where it ends up building behaviors that we want. But tell me how have your experiences been bringing him to the off-leash stuff at School?
Katie:
Well, that was a perfect segue because it was a great experience mostly for me in realizing that like whatever Chihuahua timidity tendencies I was seeing just in the sensory overload of like acclimating to the city were not a part of his personality at all. And that in fact, he was by definition, adaptable. Mike was like, he was up to speed with dogs that were on their third visit, not to show off as a dog mom, but I was very impressed. And that snowballs, you know, your warmth and just you're willing to believe that they can do something hugely impacts whether or not they do.
And what you were saying also about, you know, nobody having any authority at the dog park was definitely true. And I feel very lucky that thus far, the spectrum of interactions he's had, I've been, I think, a good mixed bag. Like there are going to be negative experiences. And the two dogs that he did run into were just like, one of them was huge and hyper, so that's just a little unsettling. And then the other one kind of nipped without making contact, you know, bark without a bite, but it was still, his owner was like, Oh, she didn't do anything. And I responded, yeah, but it's still scarring. And she was like, no, and I said, yes.
Annie:
It's like not even worth, it's like not even worth going there. I mean, I've had so many conversations at the dog park that like, don't go anywhere. That just leave me like banging my head. Trust me. I think my best suggestion about like, if you are going to go to the dog park is keep it short. Because like the less amount of time that you're there, they'll the less crap is going to happen. Also like try and stay within like five, 10 feet of him.
Interestingly there's a really good app. I think I forgot what it's called. It's by Sue Sternberg. It's like how to navigate dog parks. That's a good thing to check out. We also have an on demand body language course. If you go to schoolforthedogs.com/courses, which I think is helpful Lily Chin has a new book out called Doggie Language that I like a lot.
But anyway I was gonna say, I think I learned from Sue Sternberg, she talks about how there's more incidents — she's a well known trainer. There's more incidents of bad outcomes at dog parks that are small than a dog parks that are large, which is not what you would think, you would think it would be the opposite. But at dog parks that are large people stay with their dog. because you don't want your dog to be a hundred feet away.
Whereas if you're at a small dog park, like most of the ones in New York City are pretty small. You have sort of the false sense of security of like, I see my dog over there. I could get there if I need to. So I'm just gonna sit on this side of the park while he's on that side of the park. So instead of thinking about it, like we're going to the park so Sonny can play, think about it more like we're going to the park so sunny can be off, so sunny and I can hang out with him off leash. And this is where we hang out without a leash.
But still be within like leash distance. And yeah, look out for look out for any kind of hounding than any dog is doing. But again, I think one-on-one play is generally the best play. So, you know, that's another thing, like if you have a friend who has a dog, you could sort of go to the dog park together, and sort of have them play together. If your dog is playing with one other dog at a dog park it can be easier, I think, to keep the other dogs away. Cause like they're occupied, but you have that outdoor space.
Actually. I also have an upcoming — I was talking, I forget if it was before or after you tuned in, but I was saying, I interviewed Mike for the podcast School for the Dogs Podcast recently. It hasn't aired yet, but we were talking about different —
Oh, I think I lost, Oh, I think I lost Katie. I think we were wrapping up, but I was saying I was interviewing Mike and he was giving some suggestions. But also I have an upcoming episode. I think actually it's airing tomorrow about, Sniff Spot, which is a really cool site where you can book people's yards for your dog to play in. Radical, radical, yet simple idea.
So if you are someone who is jonesing to take your dog to a dog park, but have some reservations as you probably should, booking one of these sniff spot locations — or they're like, it depends where you are, but they have them all over the, all over the country. Unfortunately, not that many in New York city right now. But wherever you are you know, $5 an hour or something like that, you can book a spot for you for your dog to play ideally with a friend.
Alright, thank you guys for tuning in. Thank you, Katie. Your question. If you have a question and you would like to send it to me in advance, I can try and get to it next week. I will try and let you know beforehand if I am going to answer your question, if I can have you on live. Just go to schoolforthedogs.com/qanda all right. Talk to you guys soon. Bye.
