09 JulEpisode 160 | Traveling the world, training one animal at a time: Meet Maria Skorobogatov, CTC
Maria Skorobogatov, CTC, is a dog trainer who has spent the last six years traveling the world training animals. She's worked with dogs in Hanoi, cats in Tunisia and Rome, and everything from pangolins to elephants to vervet monkeys in Malawi. Originally from Brooklyn, Maria discovered the joys of animal training when she lucked into a client service's job at The Houston Zoo. When she saw the work the trainers were doing there, she started taking classes in behavior at a community college, where she learned to train rats. She later moved to San Francisco, worked at an animal shelter there, and eventually enrolled in Jean Donaldson's acclaimed Academy For Dog Trainers. While working as a trainer and dog walker in Brooklyn, she got the opportunity to dog sit in Vietnam for a month, and that trip ultimately led to her current lifestyle as a world-traveling trainer.
Annie and Maria first met in middle school! They lost touch after eighth grade, but reconnected recently and discovered they both have ended up working as positive-reinforcement based dog trainers, and have nearly-identical heroes and philosophies. She and Annie catch up and discuss her life as a world-traveling animal trainer.
Fun fact: As a child, Maria played the young version of the main character in a famous horror film. Listen to the episode to learn more!
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Mentioned in this episode:
Rome Torre Argentina Cat Sanctuary
Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Don't Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor
Related episodes:
Episode 29 | A modern dog owner’s guide to sidewalk leash greetings
Transcript:
[intro and music]
Annie:
I am here with Maria Skorobogatov, who — I said it right, right?
Maria Skorobogatov:
You did! It’s perfect.
Annie:
Who I have known since 1992.
Maria:
Jesus. Yeah.
Annie:
We met in the sixth grade long before either one of us were dog trainers. And Maria and I then pretty much lost touch, I guess like at the start of high school. But we reconnected. Gosh, was it on Facebook?
Maria:
I think so.
Annie:
Last year or the year before? I can't even remember how, but lo and behold, we're both now —
Maria:
Illustrious dog trainers.
Annie:
We're both now passionate, passionate reinforcement based dog trainers who have both had rather interesting careers. And we are meeting up today for the first time in so long because Maria happens to be in town, and I said, you have to come talk to me about your life as a world traveling dog trainer.
I want to know what it's been like dog training in so many countries around the world, and sort of how you got into dog training, because as we know every dog trainer seems like they have their own path. So yeah, where can we begin? Let's start, rather than going all the way back to 1992, maybe you could just talk about how you got into dog training initially.
Maria:
Sure. Yeah. Well, that's one of the things I love talking to other dog trainers about, right? Because as you know, there's no direct route into getting into this world. I started off actually working at a zoo, so I was very lucky. After I graduated from college–
Annie:
You went to a very small college?
Maria:
I did, it was a tiny, tiny school in the middle of Maine. I mean, we had about 300 students in the entire school. And I had this sort of basically a kind of a social sciences degree, and ended up moving to Texas with my then partner, and was unable to find work and managed to eventually find a job working at the local zoo. So the Houston zoo in Texas.
[squeaky sound]
Annie:
Oh, that’s Poppy playing with her squeaky toy.
Maria:
And from there, I decided, I was seeing what the zookeepers were doing, and it was a lot of husbandry and training that they were doing.
Annie:
What made you want to work at the zoo to begin with?
Maria:
Oh, it was just an available job. So it was a guest services position. After about six months of trying to find work, that was the first available job that came up for me. So I took it and it was, kind of, greeting guests and talking a little bit about the animals. And I'd always had a passion for animals, but never really knew how to turn that into a career.
And I thought this is great. I'll just, you know, stick around here for a little bit. And then I befriended some of the zookeepers, saw what they were doing on a day-to-day basis, and that I thought it was just so interesting. Cause most modern zoos these days really focus on animal behavior and training and the day-to-day husbandry.
Annie:
What's the name of the zoo? Where was it?
Maria:
It was Houston zoo in Texas and Houston. It's an enormous zoo, it's still around. They do really great work, a lot of conservation work actually. So I'd gotten to know a few of the zookeepers and I thought, Hey, this is something that's really intriguing. I started taking a couple of community college classes.
So there's a kind of animal behavior prep course. And so I took that, really quite enjoyed it. We actually, as part of the course, we had to get a pet rat and train them to do a few things. So I just trained some target commands, you know, a common command.
And then I just was very lucky in that one of the departments at the zoo was hiring for zookeeper. It was a department that was focusing a lot on presentations with the animals. So we would go in and have the animals do certain things on cue to sort of show off their species specific behaviors.
So, for example, like in the rainforest section, you would have monkeys and you would ask them to kind of break through the trees, which is basically when they swing through the trees from point A to point B, right. And this is to show the crowds how they locomote through the trees.
And I do have an acting background. I have a theatrical background from when I was a kid so many years ago, and they really wanted people who could kind of like, you know, work the crowd. Even though I didn't have a formal training background, they took a chance on me, and basically that's where my training career began.
So it was an apprenticeship of sorts and learned everything — at that point, that's when I read, started reading a bunch of these training manuals. I read, actually, Culture Clash, even though I wasn't working with dogs.
Annie:
Jean Donaldson.
Maria:
Exactly right. And I read Karen Pryor’s Don't Shoot the Dog. And that to me was just the seminal kind of moment of, holy cow, this stuff is so fascinating. I could see myself doing this for the rest of my life, just from those two books alone. And it is such a psychological shift, right? You grew up thinking that animals and humans have a specific type of relationship, and this is how they're supposed to be treated. And then I thought, well, no, this doesn't just apply to animals. It can apply to humans. It applies to basically any creature. And what a wonderful way to interact with sentient beings around you.
Annie:
I was actually, I was just on a call with our apprentices last night. And somebody was saying like, how do you deal with people who are, what's the word…like tied to using punishment based techniques, dah, dah, dah. How do you talk to clients like that? And I said, look, there are the people out there who are going to seek out a dog trainer who is doing specifically positive reinforcement based dog training. There are people who are just seeking out a dog trainer and happen to find you, they don't know exactly what they're looking for, which is probably like where I would have fallen as a client.
And then there, then there are people on the other extreme who want, you know, a prong collar trainer or shot-caller trainer or whatever. And I said, you're probably not going to get those clients because they're probably going to find someone else. And to me, like the most exciting client is like the second kind of client who doesn't even know yet, the wonder and magic of that.
Like, those are the people who don't know that dog training actually could, can be like a life transforming activity. And those are, to me, like the most exciting clients. Cause I remember the feeling of discovering what a magical world it is and how it affects so much beyond just, you know, house training dogs.
Maria:
A hundred percent. Yeah. Completely agree. Although I will say a lot of the clients that I ended up having in California when I was doing the solo stuff came to me after working with the punishment based —
Annie:
True, well then those are the people like in category one who are looking for something specific.
Maria:
Sure. Exactly.
Annie:
They're like this doesn't work, or this is not what I want to be doing with my dog.
Maria:
Yeah. So, yeah. So then I found myself working at the zoo and falling more and more in love with animal behavior and applied behavior stuff.
Hi Poppy, sorry, kiddo.
Annie:
Maria's being molested by Poppy.
Maria:
I'm getting all the love.
And then I found myself with a proposition of being able to move to California, and applied to several jobs and ended up taking a position at a humane society out there. The Peninsula Humane Society in South Bay, in the Bay Area. And it was in the behavior department there.
So that's really where my career working with dogs and cats really took off, because I was the assistant to the behavior manager there, a really great woman who is just, I believe she's still with them, runs the entire department and is really knowledgeable. So picked up a lot of, sort of the hands-on stuff with her, kind of mechanics working with dogs with her while I was there.
I really loved the position. It was super dynamic. I mean, it was everything from, you know, fielding behavior hotline calls from people with issues with their pets, to doing assessments on all the dogs and cats that came into the shelter and creating these behavior plans for these individual animals before they could be put up for adoption. It was fantastic.
And we also had fantastic volunteers that would handle dogs during our training classes for the dogs that were in the shelter. And so I would lead them, and then they would be the ones handling them. So it was really an awesome experience for volunteers to kind of like pick up training and, you know, kind of learn this really fantastic, helpful skill.
And then during my time there, I thought I had sort of hit a wall. I knew that there was more learning to be had, and I wanted sort of a more formal environment in which to learn. And so that's when I applied to the San Francisco SPCA training course with Jean Donaldson. And it's this really, at the time, I think it's changed slightly. But at the time it was this really intensive 10 week course where you learn applied behavior analysis with dogs, and I absolutely loved it. It was so eye opening. It was incredible actually.
Annie:
Was Jean Donaldson teaching it?
Maria:
Oh yeah, it was Jean Donaldson. And John Bugginess, and gosh, I don't remember, it's so embarrassing. I don’t remember the last instructor's name, but she was excellent. And it was the three of them just leading lecture courses for the entire 10 weeks. And of course, because we were working in an animal shelter, we had dogs at our disposal that we could train with, and it was awesome. It was just an amazing experience.
I graduated from that, went back to the shelter for a little bit, but then realized I kind of had gotten a little burnt out working at a shelter, which is not uncommon, and decided to go off on my own a little bit. And that's when I started taking clients just solo. I would still meet at the shelter. So I had this nice sort of relationship with the shelter where they would allow me to use the facilities, they would allow me to use some of the dogs. So did that for a little while.
And then now I'm living hundreds of miles away! [laughs] And traveling the world. Somehow, I've managed to parlay all of that to living abroad.
Annie:
So then I know at some point after San Francisco, you moved back to New York, your hometown, and you were doing dog-walking and training.
Maria:
Yeah. So a little bit of training, but it was mostly dog-walking. Which was really fun. I really got to know sort of the underground dog-walking scene here in mostly Manhattan. I did a little bit of walking in Brooklyn. But yeah, the dog runs, you know, you see the same people every day. You see other dog walkers. I actually made a lot of friends just from dog owners, you know, seeing them every single day and hanging out with their dogs. And it was really fun. I really quite enjoyed it. But I don't know how much walking you've had to do. Well, you guys offer walking services.
Annie:
I've been a dog walker at times in my life, including, I was a childhood dog walker for the dogs in my building. I got paid a dollar a walk. And I cannot believe that anybody would ever hire a year old to walk their dog in New York City.
Maria:
[laughs] That’s a little horrifying to me right now.
Annie:
Yeah. I think it's a very bad, bad idea. And I'm very lucky that nothing ever happened. We actually did have a client who had a 12 year old neighbor walking her dog. Ill-advised. I didn't know about it — until the 12 year old neighbor put the harness on wrong. The dog got loose and was killed on the West Side highway.
Maria:
Oh my God.
Annie:
Yeah. Which is a good reason to not have a 12 year old…Also, as a tangential story, maybe you read this article. This woman on the Upper East Side came home, her dog wasn't there. The dog had been walked earlier in the day, but then she came home and the dog wasn't there. And the Walker was like, well, I left her in your apartment. Anyway. Long story short. It turns out the walker delivered the dog to the wrong apartment.
Maria:
What?! So another client though, obviously.
Annie:
No! Somehow, like somehow, she managed to get into the building next door and delivered the dog to an empty apartment.
Maria:
Oh my God.
Annie:
Where the people were out of town. And this dog was alone in the stranger's apartment for four days without food or water. Before they figured it out.
Maria:
That is a ridiculous story. I will say though, I mean, I heard non-stop horror stories when I was a dog walker.
Annie:
Yeah. Another horror story I heard once was like the dog walker — they found out the dog walker was like stealing the dog’s end of life pain medication.
Maria:
Oh my God. All right. So lesson to everyone.
Annie:
Yeah. Anyway, so you were walking dogs.
Maria:
Yeah. So I was walking dogs. It was great. Whole lot of fun. I actually learned so much about New York. I mean, I’d grown up here my entire life, but I learned all these about all these side streets and cool areas I've never spent any time with. Cause I had clients all over the city, and it was, it was really fun.
Definitely developed a love/hate relationship with dog parks. That can be an entire episode I'm sure. But for the most part would take most of my doggy clients to the dog runs. Otherwise I would just want to take them out alongside the water and go for a really long walks. But it was great. I quite enjoyed it.
I had several dog clients who were pretty reactive on leash. That was always a fun kind of working with them on it. And that's sort of where my passion for training lies these days. It's more along the lines of kind of classical conditioning, fear and aggression stuff. So I actually really enjoyed those walks because it was such a great learning experience for me. And you get to see a lot of progress being made every time you go out.
But yeah, so did that for a little bit. And then through that job, I had this really great opportunity to go to Vietnam, to basically care for a dog that belonged to a couple that was living there, who wanted to come back home to the states for about a month over the holidays. And it was actually cheaper for them to fly me out all the way to Hanoi and stay in their beautiful house, than board their dog.
So that's exactly what I did. I flew out and it was kind of like this dog's bodyguard. They didn't really allow the dog to go out on leash because there were so many — in Hanoi, I don't know if it's still an issue, but at the time there were people who would ride around on motorbikes with like these catch poles. Specifically with the purpose of trying to steal dogs off the streets. And they then would either ransom them to the owners to try and get money out of them, or they would sell them to the local dog meat markets.
Annie:
Oh my God.
Maria:
Yeah. It's horrific. And so they flew me out to basically just take care of this dog and make sure that he was going to be safe while they were gone. And I fell in love with the city. I also fell in love with my now husband. And since then we've been traveling the world together.
So he works in international development. And happily for me, every new country I've been in, we've been in four at this point, I've been able to sort of parlay my background and training toward either helping in some way with the local animal care services. So most of the countries I've been in have had some sort of shelter service, and working with those guys on a volunteer basis or working at a kind of wildlife center, which I was very lucky to do when I was in Malawi.
And then now I've started doing some one-on-one client stuff. I was doing that in Hanoi and then have picked that up again in Tunisia, which is where we've recently moved.
Annie:
Wow. Well, so let's talk about each country. So in living in Hanoi, where it sounds like there's a very different culture around dogs, what was it like trying to do dog training there? Was it, were you mostly working with ex-pats?
Maria:
A lot of ex-pats, but actually some local Vietnamese as well. So with the growing middle-class in Vietnam, people are starting to have pets as indoor sort of members of the family. So it's becoming more and more common for Vietnamese to have dogs, mostly dogs, but cats as well.
And I initially, so one of the nice things about every country I've moved in so far is that there's usually a Facebook page that I can join immediately as an ex-pat. And it's usually just information that's invaluable for people who are either visiting the country or living there from outside. And oftentimes there's also a corollary Facebook page that's animal related.
So every country I've lived in has had some sort of animal Facebook page that you can sign up to and learn about animal needs in that country. So whether that's kind of like a shelter needs or people looking for a dog or a dog trainer. And so signing up to those, I realized that there was really a bit of a…there was a great need for someone who knew how to do dog training.
So when I was there in 2016 I was pretty much it. I was kind of the only game in town in Hanoi. I think in some of the other cities, there were probably other people calling themselves trainers. And so word of mouth spread pretty quickly. I honestly didn't really have to do, and I wasn't trying to do, any advertising. Literally I would just meet people. They would ask me what my background was in, and I would tell them, and they'd say, oh, I know so-and-so, they've got a dog.
Oftentimes it was ex-pats, because ex-pats tend to travel with their families, depending on the jobs that they're working, and they would bring their pets along with them. And so I would meet with one family, do some kind of whatever it is that they were asking. Oftentimes it was, honestly, it was just socializing. There aren't the dog runs that you see here in the United States.
Annie:
Yeah. I mean, if you're living in a place where you're worried about people coming along and snagging your dog off the street while you're walking your dog, how do you socialize?
Maria:
You don’t. And that was a huge problem.
Annie:
Like, YouTube?
Maria:
Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, there's — what we started doing before I left was just coming up with these playgroups amongst families whose dogs were, you know, okay, fairly social. Some of them were tarzan dogs. We just didn't know much about, you know, their background —
Annie:
Tarzan dogs?
Maria:
So they're dogs that are just unsocialized, right. They're very eager. They want to play, be with other dogs, but they just don't have the rudimentary social skills. So they're a little rude. They can be a little pushy.
Annie:
What’s funny is I feel like in New York City where we have, you know, a million options for everything, I still am always suggesting people have small playgroups in there.
Maria:
You have to. Yeah.
Annie:
I'm like, have a puppy playtime in your kitchen. I'd rather you do that with one other dog in your, you know, 200 square foot kitchen, rather than going to a dog park with your 10 week old puppy.
Maria:
100%. Yeah. And most dogs are woefully unsocialized, as you know. So that was a huge problem in Hanoi, people weren't taking their dogs out because where were they going to go? It's not safe. It's, it's bananas as soon as you leave your house with the traffic and the noise.
Annie:
Do people train their dogs also to pee and poop inside then?
Maria:
Yeah. So the nice thing about a lot of these houses that they did have outdoor spaces. So the house that I stayed in, when I first went over there to watch this dog for this family, had a beautiful garden. So that's how they could get away with not needing to walk the dog outside. The dog literally just went in the garden.
But yeah, so it was a huge problem, dog on dog aggression is a huge problem. Barrier frustration was really an issue there because people just leave their dogs out in the yards all day while they're at work. And of course, you know, they're going to be barking at every noise that goes by the house.
So that, I would say, was most of the stuff that I found myself spending my time on, was just kind of dealing with classical conditioning stuff. Right. So getting them to not, no longer be afraid of people coming to the home. No longer, you know, acting like Cujo when you see another dog on the street.
Annie:
Can you find commercial dog treats in Hanoi?
Maria:
You can, actually.
Annie:
Or is there like some Vietnamese food that you would use?
Maria:
[laughs] That would be amazing if there was. No. So I really came at the sweet time where there were starting to be shops devoted to just animal stuff. So pet shops where you could find pretty much everything you needed. But I've always been a fan of just, you know, easy cubes of cheese and small pieces hot dog or something like that. Really high value, salient rewards.
And yeah, so people would call me, they would find out about me. They would talk about me on Facebook every now and then, and that's how I was able to stay pretty busy.
Annie:
So from there you went to Rome?
Maria:
Yeah. So from there I went to Italy. So Italy was interesting. A lot more English speakers in Vietnam than there were in —
Annie:
Really!
Maria:
Yeah, and I'm not fluent in Italian, so it was, you know, I couldn't find really full-time work. What I ended up doing was finding a volunteer position at this cat sanctuary, which is like this kind of internationally famous cat sanctuary that's located in these beautiful ruins where apparently Caesar was killed. Although I think there are a few ruins that tout that.
So I spent a lot of my time just volunteering there. And, you know, I wasn't doing any formal training, but I was still able to kind of work with animals and use some of my behavior background in kind of getting some of the cats socialized, and just kind of knowing how to approach them properly. So that was fun.
Annie:
Was there any kind of culture shock going from Hanoi, from, I mean, as far as dog stuff goes, I mean, going from Hanoi to Rome? Because Romans love their dogs.
Maria:
Yeah, they do. I feel like it's more of a cat city. In fact, you would see, you know, there's so many stray cats everywhere, but you would see these older ladies. They call themselves [inaudible] taking care of like these cat colonies. So wherever you went, you knew that they were being fed and watered and, you know, vet care and all that good stuff.
Dogs, I didn't see so much in Rome. So I was mostly based in Rome, but from what I understand, there were a lot, quite a few stray dogs outside of the city. But yeah, I think it's a very pet-friendly city, but the thing with dogs is they're pretty anti sterilization. So it was a shock actually coming from the United States where there’s such stringent kind of spay neuter campaigns here, and everyone for the most part gets their dogs neutered, spayed.
And going there and seeing these dogs walking around with these huge balls or whatever, just like, oh yeah, I know, that's a thing. [laughs] And it's almost just like culturally people aren't into, you know, neutering or spaying their dogs.
Annie:
Like I've mentioned, I've spent quite a bit of time in Rome with my husband's work. And aren't, we both lucky to have these traveling husbands with jobs in Rome?
Maria:
It's pretty sweet.
Annie:
And a couple of summers, the programs he runs have been in Rome, and then right away in Greece. I've definitely noticed, like, there's such a difference between the way people are with dogs in Rome and Greece. Like Rome, you can bring your dog pretty much everywhere.
Maria:
Everywhere. Yeah.
Annie:
I mean, you can bring your dog in restaurants and like, everybody's just like, so laid back. Also, unrelated, the vet care in Rome is so inexpensive compared to in New York City.
Maria:
Is it really? I actually have no idea.
Annie:
Oh, probably like maybe a 10th of the cost.
Maria:
Oh compared to New York. Sure.
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah, I was like if we ever have — whenever possible, get all of your vet care in Rome [laughs].
Maria:
Honestly. Through medical tourism.
Annie:
I bet a lot of the times it would actually be cheaper to fly. [laughs]
Maria:
I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it.
Annie:
Anyway, but then going from Italy to Greece. In Greece, dogs are still largely like outdoor animals.
Maria:
Oh. Kind of like vermin.
Annie:
Yeah, it's like, if you have a dog, you must be like a poor person, kind of way of looking at it. You know, not letting dogs in even in like the outdoor areas of restaurants. Anyway.
Maria:
Yeah, no, that's interesting.
Annie:
And so from Rome, you went to Malawi, which is, I think last year when we spoke, you were in Malawi, right?
Maria:
Yeah. So we were there. I think we were there for about three years total. Got to Malawi, a lot of stray animals there. So much more than in Hanoi and in Rome, especially. But there was also an animal shelter that was doing its best, but, you know, staffing wise, resources wise, still so struggling.
So I did get involved a little bit doing a little bit of volunteering with one of the animal shelters that I came across. Just trying to provide some semblance of consistent socialization, because these were dogs that were taken from the streets. People, especially out in the villages, don't like dogs. They will throw stones at them. So a lot of the dogs are hand shy. They don't like people, they are grossly unsocialized to people.
Annie:
Well there must be like straight dog communities that are like, self-sustaining.
Maria:
Absolutely. I mean, there were packs of dogs roaming, not so much in the city, but certainly outside in the smaller village or villages. So the concept of having dogs that are living inside with you is still relatively new. What was really big there were dogs used as security, for security purposes.
And in fact, I would get people, you know, calling me occasionally saying, you know, can you train a dog to be a guard dog? That's not an area I'm comfortable working in. I don't have a background. I could kind of piece together, you know, some sort of, you know, maybe training plan for how to bark on cue, but like, I've spent my entire career getting dogs to like humans, right.
Annie:
Yeah. It's true. It's something I really don't know about, but my guess is that most people who train guard dogs are not like followers of Jean Donaldson.
Maria:
Not so much. And the fact of matter is though, is you don't really need to train a lot of these dogs to be guard dogs. All of them were afraid of humans anyway. So, you know, you just get a dog, you don't do anything with them. Leave them in the yard all day. They're going to bark a leaf falling down outside of your yard.
Annie:
I've always thought though, if you're trying to break into someone's house and they have the guard dog, you should bring a dog trainer with you.
Maria:
Yes, [laughs] foil the whole plot.
Annie:
Cause the dog trainer would probably help you help figure out how to get that dog to like you mighty quick.
Maria:
Well it’s kind of like those old, old time mystery movies, right, they just carried like a thing of hot dogs in their pocket. Right. Distract the dog a little bit. Well it worked!
Annie:
They were the original dog trainers.
Maria:
Classical conditioning, all the way!
So anyway. I was very lucky to have found a position fairly early on working at this amazing wildlife center that took in injured wildlife from all over Malawi. And then for the large animals that they couldn't treat onsite, they would actually go out. So like elephants, rhinos, things like that, hyenas, any injured wildlife, they had dedicated vets to go out and treat them in situ. So in these parks, national parks and out in the wild.
But it was amazing. So I, you know, I did some hands-on stuff. A lot of animals, we had everything from monkeys to birds and reptiles, pangolins. It really runs the gamut. But I was mostly focused on the volunteer program. So we had volunteers from all over the world coming, and basically just assisting them with the day-to-day. Caring of a lot of the orphans that we had coming in, baby monkeys, baby everything, oftentimes needed around the clock care. So I helped kind of try and train them, get them settled into this very wildly different environment.
Annie:
We’rent you telling me though that part of the challenge is like, you don't want a lot of these animals to be interacting with humans because the goal is putting them back out in the wild?
Maria:
Yes, that's a hundred percent. And that's something very new to me. Right. So my instinct is whenever I see an animal is to try and get them to like being around me and humans.
Annie:
Let's do it targeting!
Maria:
Exactly. Right. And, but yeah, the opposite is true here because the ultimate goal is to release these guys. We're not a zoo, right. We want to bring these guys in, keep them as quickly as possible. And then as soon as they're all healthy, send them on their way. And it was a lot harder with the carnivores and the cats, because as soon as you start feeding them, they start getting socialized to you, especially if they're quite young. So we had to take great pains to —
Annie:
Do you use like remote feeders or that kind of thing?
Maria:
That was something that was discussed. And I know that there's some sanctuaries around the world that have had luck doing that, but we never got to that point. What we would do though, is we would make sure that we were masked up. So we all wore the same thing whenever we were working with the animals so that these guys didn't form associations with any one person in particular.
We were trying to go in and out as quickly as possible without, you know, Ooh, hi baby. Hi, how are you doing? Which again, very difficult for me because that is my natural inclination whenever I see any animal. Yeah, it's short and sweet, feed and then remove ourselves quickly as possible. And it was more successful than others.
Annie:
You didn’t have to dress as like a mommy monkey?
Maria:
[laughs] The interesting thing about the baby monkey. So they were the few animals that we actually had to be very physical with. So baby monkeys need that physical contact. Otherwise they really languish in captivity and they can die. So they would cling to you. I mean, you get a baby monkey and it cleans clings to those closest human next to it. And then you have to stay with that monkey throughout the night, and you have to sleep with them. You have to stay with them throughout the day. They can't be alone.
But what's interesting is that, as quickly as possible, the animal care person, the manager, would try and find a monkey mama basically to take over their foster care. And they were always successful in finding a monkey, an older female monkey already on the property that could take over.
Annie:
What kind of monkey?
Maria:
It was usually vervets. So they're like these smaller monkeys. But they also had yellow baboons which are larger primates. So happily, there was always a mama foster that the monkeys could then be introduced to. And as soon as they met their mama foster, we were like garbage, like they didn't care about us at all. They completely forgot about us.
Annie:
They’re like, you are a weird looking monkey. And this is an okay looking monkey.
Maria:
Totally.
Annie:
So just to go back to the dog thing. So were there shelters? I mean, how do, in populations where the majority of the dogs are not in people's homes, how does the shelter system work? Because people forget that like three-quarters of the dogs in the world don't live in people's homes.
Maria:
Right, exactly.
Annie:
Like, how do you determine, is this dog okay outside, or does this dog need to be put in a shelter for adoption?
Maria:
Right. So they couldn't, I mean, it was a tiny percentage of the wild dog population that made it into shelters. Usually, it oftentimes, sadly enough, a lot of the dogs in the shelters came from ex-pats. So people who had a dog while they're in the city, and then they decided to leave, go back to their original homes or wherever, and they left the dog behind.
So that is quite a common occurrence that I've found, not just in Malawi, but in other countries as well.
Annie:
How can people do that?
Maria:
I know, it's shocking. Right. But it's common.
Annie:
I can't relate. I mean, I feel like…I mean, I both feel like I would move heaven and earth to make sure I could bring my dog wherever I went. But also, I feel like those are the people I work with.
Maria:
Yeah. But you have to remember too, if a lot of the reason these guys have dogs in the first place is as guard dogs. Then in their mind, it's kind of like, well, no, they're here with the property. They stay with the property.
Annie:
Yeah.
Maria:
So, so I mean, I would hear stories of, you know, guard dogs who were tied down, and their owners left, and they were just left there with maybe a bowl of water. And then, you know, it was a good Samaritan that happened to find them, or the people moving in who were like, oh, I guess this dog stays with the property? I guess they're ours now? So, some of these dogs came from situations like that.
Other times it's really, it's just up to individual good Samaritans. So they would see a puppy on the street and say, Hey, this puppy has a chance, and they bring them into the shelter. But in terms of when they're at the shelter, it's not like there was a rigorous assessment being performed on these dogs as to whether they needed a little bit of behavioral work before they got adopted. I mean, there was nothing of that type.
Annie:
And were there a lot of people coming through to adopt the dogs?
Maria:
There actually, so from what I understand, there were people, there was always a steady clip of people wanting a dog or a cat. Occasionally some of them had cats. But no, it's not a huge line of people waiting to adopt dogs, especially when you see all these stray animals on the street. And you're like, I could just pluck one off the street, right. So yeah.
So it's one of these tricky things where you want to support the work that they're doing as much as possible. And they are doing great work. But you also need a demand, right? You need enough people who want to actually adopt these animals out.
Annie:
So from there you went to Tunisia?
Maria:
Yeah.
Annie:
How long have you been there?
Maria:
So moved in February of this year. So really haven't been there all that long. Tunisia was a great job opportunity for him. And it looked amazing to me. I don't know much about Northern Africa. So we arrived in February. And immediately you see that it's a very cat friendly city. I mean, just like in Rome there are cat colonies everywhere. There are people that take care of them.
But I've never seen the amount of strays in my life as I have in Tunis specifically, that's where we're living. They're everywhere, dogs, cats. And shockingly to me, there's no federal funding to take care of these guys. There's no spay and neuter program. There are no animal shelters. There are a couple of private animal shelters started by ex-pats, but there's really no umbrella. There's no safety net for any of these guys.
And so it's actually been, I think out of all the countries I've lived in, more heartbreaking to see the state of the animals living in Tunis on the streets. They're constantly getting run over. There's constant neglect, and this is a middle income country. It's not a developing nation. And so there are great veterinarians there. There are a lot of pet shops, you know, any grocery store has a small section where you can buy cat food and dog food.
And yet still, for whatever reason, the amount of animal abuse and neglect is just shocking to me on a daily basis. And it's gotten to the point where like, I'll leave my apartment and I almost have to put my blinders on because there's just animals everywhere. Needing vet care, needing some sort of assistance.
And in fact, the first week I was there, there was a little kid in that crawled, literally flopped on my feet that was really sick, and now we've adopted it. So I have a little kitten. We call her Couscous. And, but it's like, everyone I talk to has many cats, because that's just what you do. That's how you solve the problem is you take in as many stray cats as you can.
Obviously, that's not a sustainable solution. So I have since met a group of other ex-pats who were all kind of passionate about the same things with regard to animal care, and we want to try and start up some sort of spay neuter program.
Annie:
Like trap, neuter, release.
Maria:
Exactly. So we've been kind of, it's very in its infant stages. But we're trying to figure out logistics on how to make that happen. Obviously it would be small, small scale, but we need to work with veterinarians who are willing to spay these guys.
So in Tunis, what I've learned is that the vets there are very unwilling to do any type of sterilization before six months of age. Which, I don't know if you know much about that whole philosophy. I certainly don't myself, but I know that there's sort of like this thinking that you're not supposed to, or it's bad for the pet to do any type of sterilization before six months.
Annie:
Right. But if you're dealing with cats that are going to be living on the streets.
Maria:
Right. And run over and dying from illness.
Annie:
Maybe better to do it sooner rather than later.
Maria:
Right. So I think that our first step is just finding veterinarians who are okay with doing that, and then kind of explaining the situation and then going from there. So yeah and during that time, I've been working with one of the animal organizations, and through them was able to pick up a few clients, actually, because again, once your name is out there on the street as someone who does any type of behavior animal training, you become popular very quickly. You really don't have to do a whole lot of advertising. So I've met with a few people already.
But what's interesting is, it's a lot of the same stuff, right. It's dog on dog frustration, barrier aggression. Very rarely is it something as simple as, you know, doing basic obedience. For the most part, I feel like people have that pretty down. I feel like folks who have dogs tend to be more savvy these days.
Annie:
Well, if you have a pet dog in a place like that, though, I would guess that part of what you're dealing with is reactivity to unleashed dogs and stray cats on the street.
Maria:
100%.
Annie:
Not just like in New York City, where it's, your dog has issues with other dogs who are on leash.
Maria:
Right. Exactly, exactly right. Because I have yet to go out on a walk with a dog and not encounter a stray dog. And you don't obviously know anything about this dog and oftentimes they'll advance, and you've got your dog on a leash. What do you do?
Annie:
So what do you do? If you have unleashed dog coming at your dog reactive dog?
Maria:
Oh, you get out of Dodge as quickly as possible. I mean, I always tell my clients, you know, have a little something something treat wise in your back pocket for situations like this.
Annie:
To throw at the other dog, too.
Maria:
Exactly. Right. Actually in Malawi it was a problem. A lot of you know, some stray dogs there, whenever I would go out with the clients on walk,s carrying water also is a huge thing as well. So I would always have a bottle of water. So if we couldn't get our dog out quickly or we couldn't distract the other dog, I would just toss water. And that was oftentimes something that would keep them away. It was an aversive enough.
Annie:
Oh, I thought you meant for like the other dog to drink?
Maria:
No, no, no. To distract them. So they were all wet and they didn't want to, you know, advance any closer. So if it came to that, we would end up doing that. But yeah, just having a really solid recall with your dog, being able to distract them, and getting out of there as quickly as possible.
Annie:
My, just evolutionarily thinking as far as behavior goes, I would think that like stray dogs on the street would not be inclined to start fights with each other and leash dogs. Do you think, I mean, are stray dogs on the street just as likely to be reactive as the leash dogs in our homes?
Maria:
I think, you know, part of the, the thing that leads to leash frustration is the leash, right. Or the barrier. Oftentimes you take those out of play and you're not going to have the, you know, crazy Cujo, barking and lunging and all that stuff. They don't need to get to that point. It's not being able to access one another when they want that leads to that. Oftentimes.
So yeah. I mean, you watch these packs, they certainly get into scraps. Right. I mean, you see, especially the males, they're unsterilized so they're more likely to engage in situations where they're fighting. So I think the loud, obnoxious, lunging and barking, you would not see it if it weren't for the leashes and the barriers. Certainly.
Annie:
Just bringing it back to middle school. [laughs]
Maria:
Mhmm. Yeah.
Annie:
Just while you were saying that I was thinking about human corollaries. And how, I think school is so — it's like all the kids are leashed in a way, you know, like you can’t escape. I mean, I don't know about you, but my general feeling about school was like, I was imprisoned for whatever it was, for like 14 years, and had no choice except having to go to this place that I didn't want to go most the time.
Maria:
You have to make nice. Right. Cause there's no alternative
Annie:
Yeah. And how, actually on the podcast I talked about this before, I think, but like how…You know the idea of like the bully test? When you're dealing with, like in puppy playtimes, we’ll often hold back one of the dogs. And if the other dogs come towards the dog, then that means that, you know —
Maria:
They're not being bullied.
Annie:
They're not being bullied. And I think that, you know, there was no room, there was no opportunity for that in school, cause you have to show up every day.
Maria:
Right.
Annie:
But how, like, at least in my adult life, most of my adult life, I haven't had to interact with people I don't necessarily want to interact with. I feel like in general my interactions have been happier, as opposed to like leashed interactions where you have nowhere to go.
Maria:
[laughs] That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I would find that oftentimes was the case working in the shelter system. So in California, you put two dogs together who ordinarily are reactive outside of that small kennel that they're in, but you cram them together into a dog kennel.
And they're not going to bloody each other to death. I mean, in rare cases maybe, but like, you know, they're going to figure it out. They're going to try and stay to their own corners and use those subtle, ritualized cues to kind of be like, you know what, don't move any further buddy. Because where are they going to go? What are they going to do? So they kind of, you know…
Annie:
But they're not necessarily like happy.
Maria:
Oh, they're miserable! A hundred percent. Absolutely. But they're not, you know, they're not biting each other to death.
Annie:
And I think with school, especially because, it's not like you choose who you want to hang out with. Like you have to go to the same classroom with people. Like, it's also so weird to me about school, is like how you're forced to be with other people your age. Like what else in life are you forced to be with people who were born within like 11 months of you?
Maria:
That's true. Although I feel like a lot of more modern schools — so like the high school that I went to, they grouped all the entire body into the same classes. So like I would be taking classes with seniors and juniors, which I thought was fantastic. It's such a great learning experience, and exactly to your point, it's a little bit more natural. But yeah, that's, that's interesting.
Annie:
Wow. I feel like we've covered a lot.
Maria:
Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, like, I feel like there's so much more that we could talk about, right? But what I find really heartening is that everywhere I've been, there's been a really caring community of people who want to look out for the local pet population, whether they're owned pets or whether they're stray animals. It is something that more and more people are getting on board with in terms of making sure that these guys aren't suffering, right. And that they have good lives.
Annie:
So you have found those communities in each place.
Maria:
Every single place I've been to. Yeah. And, and oftentimes, even if they don't exist, people are very open to starting something. They just need someone to kind of like start a project. And oftentimes you'll find a bunch of bored spouses who are there because their spouses have jobs and they don't, who want to lend their time, and money, especially, toward these types of programs. So it's, it's been very, I think, receptive, in all of these communities to do that sort of thing. Yeah.
And it's been great for me because, I was starting to get a little bored here, because you see the same issues everywhere I go. I mean, you had mentioned earlier you're basically saying the same speeches over and over again. And it's rare that I see something that is shocking to me behavior wise.
But what's cool is that in these communities, you don't necessarily have the resources that you might in the United States. So you kind of have to be a little creative in figuring out, you know, different ways to approach a problem. Different ways of talking about an issue that makes sense, right. That's salient and accessible to a lot of these people who are living in environments very different from what I'm used to back home. So that's been really exciting for me actually. I quite enjoy that.
Annie:
Well, and what do you think your next step is going to be as a trainer if you leave? Well, if, and when, I guess you leave Tunis?
Maria:
You know what, I couldn't tell ya, but that's been the beauty of being able to do this type of work is if we moved to another country outside of the States, then it's going to rely completely on what that country has to offer, right. So what's already available there, the needs that local population, and ex-pats have with regard to animals, and figuring out from there.
Which I love that that's something I get to do. I get to sort of reinvent myself in every new country I go to, but still with this knowledge base that I've learned along the way. Or we might end up back in the States and obviously then —
Annie:
You'll be coming to work for School for the Dogs!
Maria:
[laughs] Exactly.
Annie:
Obviously. [laughs]
Maria:
So yeah, yeah. Either way, it's something that if it's not my full-time job, I'm going to obviously be doing on the side in some way. Cause it's a passion. It's not something you just, you know, kind of stop learning how to enjoy.
Annie:
So, one of the apprentices asked me this question last night, and I feel like I flubbed my answer or didn't give as good of an answer as I wanted to give. So I'm to passing it on to you, and if you want to pass on this question, you may. But she said, she said like, when you get those people, like I was saying earlier, when you meet people, maybe not clients, but family or your neighbor or whoever who just has a very different idea about how a dog should be trained.
I think her example was like, I have a neighbor who is letting their dog cry it out when they leave for work. Like, how do you handle that?
Maria:
Well it depends. Are they coming to you for help? Because then that's the barrier already.
Annie:
Well, I think she was saying in this case, these people are not interested in her help, but if you encounter people who are willing to have a conversation with you, how do you explain to them what you do is perhaps a more, I don't know, enlightened approach to the situation.
Maria:
Honestly, I don't know that there's an easy way to do that. I think you need to have a little bit of buy-in from the client from the get-go, whether they know what your approach is or not. I think they need to seek you out for some reason. And then once I get them in my clutches, then I can say, look, these are all the options available to you. And then talk about each one. And then see how we can cater it to, you know, their lifestyle, their needs, while pushing sort of the stuff that you know is humane, right.
If it's just someone who is not seeking your counsel in any way, then I think you just have to be creative as to how to bring up that conversation. And, if it's your neighbor and say, Hey, I've been hearing a dog barking and I don't know if you've tried this, but you know, kind of come about it in a roundabout way that's not trying to necessarily, you know, raise their hackles and say that they're doing anything wrong. But then just say, Hey, maybe this is something that I've heard can really help and work for these reasons. Have you tried this?
Cause I mean, at some point, if it's the barking, in that example, is bad enough, I mean, they're going to be getting repercussions from that. Right? Some neighbor’s going to complain. I mean, someone's going to come down on them.
Annie:
I feel like sometimes when I've tried to explain like, what we do at School for the Dogs is rooted in behavioral science and with the goal of not causing pain and suffering, not using coercion, dah, dah, dah, dah. I feel like sometimes that gets heard as like, you are a hippy flower child. [laughs]
Maria:
Totally. A hundred percent. And that's why I always say, you know, positive does not mean permissive. You're not letting your dog run all over you. Right? In fact, you're setting very clear rules for them, much clearer than what most people would doing when they're using aversives, right. The dogs are usually, you know, they have no idea what's going on. There's no contract there that you've ever signed with them from the get-go, that makes it clear what your expectations are.
Whereas you know, that the stuff that we do, if anything, it starts off quite rigid, I think. Right. And then you can make the rules a little bit more lax as we go.
Annie:
I like to talk about, you're creating a yellow brick road where your dog is gonna want to be on that road. And isn't going to realize that there's an opportunity to not be on that road because you're making that road so awesome.
And, and of course the problem with punishment based training is the fallout. Is in all the unexpected consequences, which, when you understand just even a little bit about classical conditioning and operant conditioning, you can't not see that like that fallout is gonna happen.
Maria:
Right. Exactly. I always make it very clear to clients that look, you know, punishment has a basis in behaviorism. Of course it works, right?
Annie:
That's part of why I feel like it's misleading to call it. — like, it's even misleading to say like, well, this is a science-based training based in behavior, because punishment is part of behavior, too.
Maria:
Right. It includes all of that a hundred percent, but then you would be remiss if you didn't then talk about the potential fallout, which is great, which is very difficult to get rid of. And I think it would behoove any trainer ethically to talk about that stuff too.
And then obviously there's only so much you can do. I mean, the client's going to choose what works for them, what they feel more comfortable doing, but your job isn't to fix the dogs, it's to layout all the potential options and then have them decide. And try and steer them in the right decision that you think honestly is going to work for them. But there's only so much you can do.
And I, and I think, you know, I had to learn pretty early on that I couldn't save all these dogs. It's not my job to, right. My job is to work with these clients so that they can have a better life with their own pets.
Annie:
Sure. So, last question that I like to ask dog trainers who are at like a professional level, if someone's listening to this and they're just maybe learning about how exciting the world of dog training is, working with their dog, and thinking maybe I could make this some kind of career, what would you suggest be their very first step? Is there a book or a program or just something to think about what would be the number one?
Maria:
Honestly, I would try and get as much hands on learning as possible. So if you have a local shelter, which most major cities do these days, see if they have a volunteer program. Oftentimes they do, in which case, get involved with. That's going to be your best first introduction to just handling dogs, learning how to read their behavior and body language.
And you know, from there, I would absolutely read some of these kinds of seminal books out there. I would go with Don't Shoot the Dog because it's not only dog-related right. And then, yeah, just read as much as you can and see if you can volunteer at a local animal shelter. Then from there, I think it's just a matter of seeing what courses are available, once you get to sort of the college level, usually there's some sort of basic behavior, animal behavior class somewhere that you can take, if it's something that you want to kind of delve more deeply into.
But honestly, I think it's a lot of hands-on stuff. It's learning the mechanics, right. Which you can't really do remotely, you kinda have to be there with these guys to kind of pick up the subtle cues and things like that. And if you know of trainers in your area, but you know, that gets into how to kind of assess a trainer's backgrounds. Because as you well know, as a lot of your listeners know, it's not a regulated industry, unfortunately.
So you can look out for certain things. Like if the trainer is accredited with any of the accrediting organizations, like APDT, CPDT, all those things. But otherwise it's really just a matter of interviewing people and asking them all the right questions. And if you find a trainer that you really enjoy the work that they're doing, and they're willing to take you on, apprentice with them. I think that's honestly just going to be the best way to learn about this stuff.
And going on client meet alongs is huge, right? Because as you know, a lot of what we do is, it's focused on the pet, but I feel like it's more focused on the owners, right? It's almost like therapy for the owners. You're there to train them how to lead happy lives with their pets.
Annie:
Right, they say animal trainers are the rare teacher who has to teach two species at once.
Maria:
Yeah. A hundred percent, which is why I personally love it so much. So yeah. So a lot of really funky ways to get into it. There's no direct line.
Annie:
Thank you so much, Maria.
Maria:
Oh, it was such my pleasure.
Annie:
It’s so fun to recollect after what, 30 years?
Maria:
Its wild. It wouldn't have happened if it weren't for Facebook. Not that I want to plug Facebook right now.
Annie:
That's so funny that we both ended up doing the same thing with our, I mean, not the same, but the same relatively speaking of all the things we could be doing.
Maria:
And the same type of training, right. I mean, I could have very easily have been, you know, a trader on the dark side.
Annie:
I do hope you're going to move back to New York and that we can maybe work together at some point.
[music]
Fun fact about Maria. She mentioned her childhood acting background. Well, she actually appeared in Silence of the Lambs. She plays the part of Clarice as a child.
[outro]
