20 AugEpisode 166 | Becoming a trainer in prison: Nora Moran of Puppies Behind Bars PLUS: AVSAB’s new position statement
Nora Moran is a director at Puppies Behind Bars, a program that employs prisoners to raise and train puppies who will grow up to become service dogs, therapy dogs, and working dogs. She first learned about the program when she herself got the opportunity to raise a puppy while incarcerated at New York's Bedford Hills Correctional Facility. Since her release in 2008, she has been working to help more prisoners raise dogs and learn about training. She and Annie discuss the kinds of work the prisoners are doing with the dogs, and talk about the transformations that take place as prisoners welcome dogs, and behavioral science, into their lives. In this episode, Annie also reads the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's recent position paper on humane training.
Learn more about Puppies Behind Bars at puppiesbehindbars.com. Read the AVSAB position statement at schoolforthedogs.com/humanetraining.
Subscribe: iTunes
Mentioned in this episode:
LIMA standards: Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive
AVSAB's Recommended Reading List:
- Decoding Your Dog (American College of Veterinary Behaviorists)
- Decoding Your Cat (American College of Veterinary Behaviorists)
- From Fearful to Fear Free (Dr. Marty Becker, Dr. Lisa Radosta, Dr. Wailani Sung, Mikkel Becker)
- Wag: The Science of Making Your Dog Happy (Zazie Todd)
- Puppy Start Right (Dr. Kenneth Martin and Debbie Martin)
- The Power of Positive Dog Training (Pat Miller)
- Don’t Shoot the Dog! (Karen Pryor)
- How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves (Dr. Sophia Yin)
- The Other End of the Leash (Patricia McConnell)
- Control Unleashed: Reactive to Relaxed (Leslie McDevitt)
- Animal Training: Successful Animal Management through Positive Reinforcement (Ken Ramirez)
Transcript:
Annie:
Hi there. I have an interesting conversation to share with you all today. I spoke to Nora Moran who learned to train dogs as an inmate in prison. She was incarcerated for 10 years and was a puppy raiser behind bars. And now she works for Puppies Behind Bars as a director. I asked her about the program and her evolution as a dog trainer.
But before I share my chat with Nora, I wanted to read aloud a position statement that was just published by AVSAB, that stands for the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists. They put out this excellent statement about why we should not be using force punishment and aversive techniques to train dogs.
So I am reading it aloud. It takes me about 13 minutes. I read the whole thing, including the Frequently Asked Questions, plus the books they recommend, if you're interested in learning more about positive reinforcement training. So if you've already read it or you're not interested, you can skip ahead about 13 or 14 minutes. You can also find the position paper on our website at schoolforthedogs.com/humanetraining.
[Annie reads AVSAB’s Position Statement on Humane Dog Training]
[intro and music (15:23)]
Nora Moran:
My name is Nora Moran. I am the director of our Dog Tags program within Puppies Behind Bars, a nonprofit organization that trains people who are incarcerated to train service dogs for Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans, for first responders, and explosive detection canines for law enforcement.
Puppies Behind Bars started in 1997, raising guide dogs for Guiding Eyes for the Blind. And the program originally started in one women's correctional facility in New York state. We have since expanded. We now operate out of six correctional facilities, five in New York, one in New Jersey, and have been doing it for over 20 years now.
Annie:
So, how many people are then raising these dogs?
Nora:
So it's kind of a one room schoolhouse in each of our facilities. So as puppy raisers come in new to the program — we have puppy raisers who have been in the program for several years. It varies per facility, and right now, in part because of COVID and lack of transit between facilities, our numbers are down.
But we could have anywhere from 10 to 30 inmates in the facility at any given time raising dogs, depending on kind of what's going on in each facility. But right now we're a little bit down in numbers.
Annie:
And are they starting with just like a very young puppy then?
Nora:
Our puppy go into prison at eight weeks of age. So we have a very small breeding program. We do two or three liters a year. That supplies some of our puppies for our organization. We also work with a few, a small handful of breeders who understand the kind of temperament and medical needs that we require for dogs in our program.
Annie:
What are the breeds that you use?
Nora:
Exclusively Labrador retrievers.
Annie:
So prisoners are getting these puppies at eight weeks of age. And how long do they get to keep them?
Nora:
It depends on the career that the dog goes off to. Our explosive detection canines, we train them until they're roughly a year of age before they go to an agency to finish their formal training. For our service dogs, we like to place them roughly between 18 months and 24 months, give or take a few months here and there.
Annie:
I want to talk more about the program, but I'd love to hear how you got into this career, because I think you have a pretty interesting path yourself.
Nora:
Yeah. So I started with Puppies Behind Bars as an inmate within Bedford Hills correctional facility. It's New York State's maximum security prison for women. I was incarcerated there for 10 years, eight of which I was a volunteer within the Puppies Behind Bars program.
Annie:
You were very young. You were a puppy behind bars, weren't you?
Nora:
Yeah, for sure. I became incarcerated when I was 17 and I left just before turning 28. So I was fairly young, kind of grew up within the program, grew up learning how to communicate with people through learning how to communicate with dogs. Learning how to figure out who my dog needed me to be, and learning I could use those same skills in the real world to work with people, and work with the organizations.
Annie:
What do you mean who your dog needed you to be? Tell me more about that. I'm curious.
Nora:
Sure. So one thing that working with dogs has taught me is that they kind of reflect what we project, and training a dog for any kind of career, or even just training a dog to be a healthy, emotionally, whole dog…You know, part of the confidence we help nurture them into developing, part of them trusting us to learn from us is dependent on who we're projecting ourselves to them, if that makes sense.
So if I'm a frustrated person, the dog is experiencing that from me and is not gonna learn as well. I won't be able to communicate with them what I want them to do because I will be projecting my stuff at them. But learning how to practice good coping and emotion regulation skills, and deciding what I wanted my dog to perceive from me.
I wanted them to know I'm a confident handler, know that I'm going to listen to, if they're telling me they are uncomfortable or they don't understand. I need to project being a confident handler, able to kind of support them as they figure out their environment.
Annie:
So what was your very first experience of Puppies Behind Bars? I mean, were you just handed a puppy one day? Did you hear about the program and then inquire?
Nora:
Well, there were dogs in the facility with women who have had been in the — the organization started in Bedford Hills in ‘97. So I didn't join until 2000 when had gotten there. And there had been women there who I came to look up to, and they were positive role models within the facility, and they had dogs with them.
And seeing dogs, being able to pet dogs, you know, while incarcerated, that just blew my mind. So I knew I needed to be a part of the program and I had to figure out what I needed to do to get there. And in 2000, I interviewed, got accepted into the program, and learned from the other puppy raisers for several months before I was entrusted with the responsibility of training my own puppy.
Annie:
So, what’s the process of learning to train a dog when you are incarcerated?
Nora:
Well, I mean, back then we were raising guide dogs or doing the preliminary training for Guiding Eyes for the Blind. So basic obedience. Today, we're training completely different types of dogs. So it's a completely different responsibility for the puppy raisers than it was X years ago when I was in the program.
But essentially we have a curriculum for dog care, for the commands that our dogs learn, for basic medical. We have a curriculum for housebreaking, teaching house manners, how to teach adult commands, how to recognize their body language, how to provide for their grooming.
So puppy raisers who join the program, they have to go through a process of learning basic skills and being able to demonstrate them hands-on, and also through tests and homework and whatnot, before earning the responsibility of working with their own eight week old puppy.
Annie:
Is the curriculum positive reinforcement based?
Nora:
Oh, sure, sure, sure. Yep. Absolutely.
Annie:
Because with puppies that young I'm imagining a lot of it is socialization. There must even be some like playtime between the puppies that are there?
Nora:
Yeah. One of our requirements is that our dogs get at least a minimum of three hours of off-leash exercise a day. So, they get massaged daily. They get groomed daily. They're assigned to a puppy raiser whose responsibility it is to care for them 24/7. And the puppies stay in their cells with them so that our dogs are never left without the attention and care of one individual person. So yeah, our puppies have pretty grand lives, in the grand scheme of things.
Annie:
Who was your first puppy?
Nora:
I had a puppy named Bill. Yeah, we called him Mr. Bill, black Labrador retriever, who was quite the character.
Annie:
So you were, what, 18 at the time, or 19?
Nora:
Yeah, I was just shy of 20 when I was handed a puppy and asked to train.
Annie:
What was that like, getting sort of this little ball of joy in what, I'm guessing, was not a great place to be?
Nora:
It was…I'm trying to remember what it's like, that's quite a few years away.
Annie:
Well, had you ever had interactions with a puppy before that, when you were younger?
Nora:
Growing up, we had cats, dogs, what have you. But it's a completely different experience in prison, that you are not only entrusted with a life, which is huge, absolutely huge that someone trusts you, you who have done something obviously wrong to be there. Someone says, despite the bad choices you've made in the past, you have an opportunity here to prove you're different, to prove that you have skills and good things to offer. So that on one hand is remarkable that someone is willing to place their trust in you.
Also just being responsible for a new life, that's huge. At 20 years old being responsible for a puppy and all that entails. I certainly didn't have kids at that point. And that was a new experience for me. And also just, you know, it's a puppy, how can you not smile and feel automatically, love and fun and a bit of joy just because it's a puppy.
Annie:
And it must have really been a full-time job.
Nora:
For sure. For sure. Yeah.
Annie:
So what happened to Bill?
Nora:
Bill actually, he graduated his in for training test, but then while trying to be placed or trained the formal training as a guide dog, he wasn't comfortable wearing the harness. So I think he went to go be a therapy dog in a group home.
Annie:
I imagine it must have been — you were with him for a year?
Nora:
Two years.
Annie:
Two years. So I imagine it must have been pretty hard to say goodbye to him?
Nora:
Oh yeah. So to love and let go is a difficult lesson. But it's one well learned anywhere you learn it. So.
Annie:
Is that something that you have to help coach prisoners through?
Nora:
For sure. It's kind of a bittersweet process. If the dog has a career change, or if it doesn't make it as a service dog or the career you intended for it, you know, the feelings of disappointment. But also just understanding that our goal is to raise each dog to their fullest potential. And sometimes that fullest potential isn't what we had planned for them. But, you know, our dogs get to choose who they are, too.
Annie:
So are there full-time people at each of these prisons who are training the handlers how to train the dogs?
Nora:
Yeah, so we have Puppies Behind Bars staff. We go in, myself included, to teach the inmates to train the dogs once a week. And we spend a full day there, morning and afternoon modules, working with them and evaluating them and their dog's progress.
Annie:
Do you ever come across puppy raisers who have very different ideas about how dogs should be trained?
Nora:
Sure. I mean, they have different ideas of how dogs should be trained, and part of it is a collaborative effort. So we do encourage them to read, get resources from home, but, you know, if they have new ideas, they're welcome to bring them to their instructor and us. And if we think that those are good ideas, we'll talk about it as an organization and decide whether or not we feel it's appropriate to employ them.
If they are not ideas we would condone and, you know, if they were really bad ideas and go against all of our training methods, then that puppy raiser would not be in the program for very long.
Annie:
Well, I imagine, with two years of doing this, you must be producing some really great dog trainers.
Nora:
The recipients who now get our dogs since we started training service dogs for veterans, and now more recently for first responders, we do our, what we call team trainings. A 14 day training, where our clients are matched and trained to use their service dogs. We have the puppy raisers serve as the instructors for half of the training.
So the puppy raisers are the ones to teach the commands that the dogs know, to give lectures on grooming, give lectures on building a relationship with your service dog, medical, et cetera, and help troubleshoot whatever kind of handling issues that there may be there. So our inmates not only learn how to teach puppies, but they're also learning how to teach people as well, which is extraordinary.
Annie:
Do you have people who are getting out of prison and going into careers training dogs?
Nora:
Yeah. To some degree, for sure. We've had puppy raisers come out and work for other dog training schools. We've had them go to work as veterinary assistants, or in grooming facilities. But more so I feel like it's the life skills that our puppy raisers kind of go home with, and learn how to use what they've learned in terms of teamwork, communication.
And again, deciding on what you want to project to your dog, that translates to people as well. So I feel like it's those life skills that our puppy raisers leave with. They may not directly go into the animal field, but they have gotten marketable skills.
Annie:
Something that I talk a lot about on the podcast is how dog training, getting into dog training really opened up my eyes to the fact that there is a science of behavior that helped me understand conditioning, and really what punishment is, what reinforcement is, and how we learn to do things or not do things. Do you think that inmates are taking away a better understanding of behavior?
Nora:
Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned that. We've just been going over the humane hierarchy and LIMA standards, and discussing how both operant conditioning and classical conditioning fit into that.
Annie:
Do you mind explaining for people listening who might not know what the humane hierarchy and LIMA are?
Nora:
Sure. So LIMA is Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive. It's a standard practice that seeks to approach behavior protocols, knowing that the learner — in our case the dog, but it can also be a human — has to be fully invested in the process as well. And that as we try to change their behavior, we are being the least intrusive that we possibly can. We are giving the learner, the subject, the most choice in the matter.
In Minimally Aversive, we are using the kindest methods possible. We are using reinforcement as much as possible, rather than any kind of punishment, if that makes sense. So what the humane hierarchy asks us to do is to follow this sequence, this process of assessing our approach. Is the behavior rooted in something that could be nutritional, medical or environmental?
And once that's discussed, then moving on to, Okay, so how do we address the behavior, can we fix the problem by just modifying the environment? Do we need to go a step further and teach the dog something that we can use positive reinforcement to address? Does that resolve the problem? Can we stay there? Do we have to go further to address the problem by reinforcing incompatible behaviors to whatever behavioral problem we're trying — I feel like I'm going off on a tangent if you want to edit this out —
Annie:
No, it's a good tangent!
Nora:
Anyway, what it asks us to do is take a systematic approach to addressing any behavioral problems, and to address them from the kindest place possible, where our dogs get to be themselves, and we're not changing who they are and getting them to do things they don't necessarily want to do. We're just trying to make behavioral changes in an appropriate way.
So, anyway, I explain it much better in puppy classes.
Annie:
[laughs] I think you did a pretty good job. I mean, talking about it, what's striking to me is though, like, LIMA is not used with people, and nowhere must that be more apparent than when you are yourself behind bars. Seems like there are so many other ways that we could modify behaviors than like putting people in boxes.
Nora:
There's a great book by Karen London that we just had our puppy raisers read, it's called Treat Everyone Like a Dog.
Annie:
Oh, I have that book. I haven't read it yet, but I have it.
Nora:
It's fantastic. And it kind of talks about that, about how, you know, it doesn't take much for us to think about how we need to treat dogs in a better way through dog training. I mean, I feel like as a society, we can kind of get that, but using those same concepts to relate to how we work with and treat people, I think she does a really great job of explaining. So it's a really good book. I'd recommend it.
Annie:
Did you make that connection when you started to learn about positive reinforcement?
Nora:
No. It took a while for sure. Yeah, definitely took awhile. I mean, again, dogs taught me. I mean, my first couple of dogs taught me, like they would tell me kind of just through body language, who I'm being that day. And then I get to decide, do I want to continue being that person? Is this what my dog is experiencing from me? Well, maybe not, maybe I get to make a new choice to change that. So I kind of got that early on.
But, using the same kind of approach to dog training, and using the least aversive means possible. I don't know that we always relate that way to humans. She talks about even as a teacher, this Karen London who wrote this book, she talks about it in one part. As a teacher, even the way she grades tests, she began thinking about it in a new way.
Instead of marking things wrong, right? Like teachers do with a red pen, you check which questions or answers are incorrect. Rather than focusing on that we can go a different route and really emphasize the answers that were answered correctly or the questions that were answered correctly.
And instead of acknowledging and harping on what was wrong, we want to reinforce what was right. Right? So I think those kinds of lessons translate to people just as well as dogs.
Annie:
I've seen, I think I saw a program about prisons in Germany where they put so much focus on education in the prisons, and that makes so much sense to me. I mean, it's really what you're doing, but I don't think that that's largely the focus of our larger — I don't think that's the focus necessarily of the larger penal system.
I mean, ideally — again, it's not an area that I know that much about, but it seems to me like prison should be educational facilities, like full stop.
Nora:
They do have college programs in a number of the facilities in New York state. And I'm not sure about other states across the country, but largelyprisons are not well known for their educational systems for sure.
Annie:
But you did go to college while you were there?
Nora:
Yep. I did have the opportunity to go to college while I was in Bedford Hills. Marymount Manhattan College sponsored the program and conferred the degrees. Although, for much of the time it was supported by a consortium of colleges throughout New York state. Right now, other prisons we operate out of — I think Mercy College has a program. There's a number of other facilities that have other college programs
Annie:
Was there any interplay then in what you were learning in college and what you were learning with the dogs who we're working with? I mean, did one help inform the other?
Nora:
I don't know. I don't know that my college education — I don't know that there was direct overlap in terms of the science of learning theory. I don't know that there was any direct overlap, but I feel like the practice of going to class and having homework and engaging with other people towards a common goal. I think those — classroom etiquette — I think those kinds of things that there was definitely a lot of overlap…
Annie:
Just being like a responsible person?
Nora:
Yeah, yeah. Learning how to be a responsible adult, for sure. Yep.
Annie:
Do you have any dogs today?
Nora:
Mhmm.
Annie:
Tell me about your dogs.
Nora:
So both of my dogs are dogs that didn't make it fully — well, one of them was released from the program for lack of competency. He is eight years old. His name is Dakota. He's a big yellow lab, a big marshmallow.
And Cheerio, my other dog, more recently, he started off as an explosive detection canine for a local police department. But it was kind ostf at the beginning of COVID, and the officer who was gonna train with him got injured. So it just didn't work out that he got to finish the training. So he came back to us and while we were waiting for plan B to get him working, which never happened, he ended up staying with us and is now my running partner. So he's a near four year old, spoiled running partner Labrador.
Annie:
So, what is the first step that the inmates are doing to work at, when they actually get to the point of teaching skills, to teach explosive detection dogs? Like where does that training start?
Nora:
So they're taught basic search patterns and a game called special play, find it. So, you know, they start at a very young age, getting the dogs interested invested in their special toy, a towel or a special plush toy, and gradually build up their stamina to play with that toy and their interest in engaging with that special toy.
And then they begin very, very simple to more complex hides with that toy. So the dog is encouraged to start from a very young age, looking at using their nose to locate that special toy. And as time goes on, the hides get more complex. The search pattern that they're asked, the pattern and space that they're asked to search within grows larger and more complicated, with stuff to have to navigate around or under, or fans blowing the scent around.
So the first step is to get the dogs kind of imprinted on a special toy and to gradually build up their stamina and their work ethic from there.
Annie:
And then later on, the toy is paired with, what, the scent of whatever it is they're looking for?
Nora:
So it depends on the agency. So we just get them really, really invested in the whole search pattern, and special play. So depending on what agency the dog goes off to, they may use food reward, or they may use play reward to imprint them on the smell of explosives.
Annie:
Hmm. So what's this first step of getting a dog interested in that special toy?
Nora:
Play.
Annie:
Playing with that toy. And I guess pairing it, maybe also presenting it at mealtime, is that part of it too?
Nora:
Generally, we try just to get up their play drive rather than pairing it with food. So luckily Labradors — and again, we try to fit the career to the dog's kind of personality. So the higher energy Labradors who want to be go, go, go, go, go all the time. Those are the ones we try to steer towards our explosive detection canine work. The ones who are a little bit lazier, who would rather sit on the couch and eat a bowl of kibble. Those ones are easier to just train with food and, and direct in that way.
So we try to get our higher energy play drive dogs towards that career. And we, as much as possible, try not to use food as opposed to play to reward their special play find it.
Annie:
And are they also teaching basic skills like loose leash walking, sit, down, stay?
Nora:
Yeah, for sure. Yep.
Annie:
So where do you see yourself going in your career? Do you see yourself going into more dog training, or into more helping other people train dogs?
Nora:
So, I mean, Puppies Behind Bars is kind of a vocation, it’s not really a career for me. It's really a lifestyle choice, because it's not just your typical nine to five job. I kind of see myself growing with the organization. We have recently, in addition to placing service dogs with veterans and first responders, we’re starting this new initiative, or newer initiative, of placing dogs within police departments for officer wellness and community relations.
So, we're learning as we go, what kind of dog that needs to be, versus our service dogs who know 60 plus commands. Department dogs are different kinds of dog, and they need to be more self social rather than looking to their handler for so many cues. So, I see myself kind of growing with the organization and learning how to take the model of the really well-trained dogs that we currently have and shifting it towards another career we're kind of innovating right now.
Annie:
One question I like to ask people is if somebody is listening and is interested in themselves becoming perhaps a professional dog trainer, what would you suggest they do first? What would be a first step?
Nora:
To become a professional dog trainer? I would encourage them to find a professional dog trainer that has been certified through Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers or a reputable agency like Karen Pryor. I would find a really good legitimate dog trainer and ask to learn from them.
Also, get all the books that you can, all the Karen Pryor videos you can, all the Ian Dunbar references and books that you can, and be prepared to never stop learning because dog training certainly is an ever-growing field.
Annie:
If somebody is behind bars but doesn't have a program like yours, is there a way that they can lobby to try and get one? Or books that they could read? I mean, what would you suggest for that person?
Nora:
Well, if they're New York state, they can always ask their counselor to be moved to a facility that has the program. If not in New York state, I mean, there are other states with prison programs. So I guess they'd have to look there, but maybe not —
Annie:
But are there any sort of like really great success stories of prisoners who've raised dogs, whether that's the dog has gone on to do amazing things or they've gone on to do amazing things themselves when they've maybe been able to get out? I mean, certainly, you sound like a grand success story, but are there any others you can share?
Nora:
We have other puppy raisers in our office who are doing extraordinary work. We have puppy raisers. I mean, I wouldn't want to tell stories without permission. So, yes, we do have other puppy raisers who've gone home to do extraordinary things. We have former puppy raisers who work in our office, who are great leaders and role models for those who come after.
And our dogs always go off to do amazing things. I mean, we just graduated two dogs who went to NYPD the employee assistance unit, and are going to work with the NYPD, responding to crisis situations within the department to give people relief and dog drool and dog hair after, you know, dealing with various traumas or incidents that happen while on the job. They go to comfort officers’ families who may be dealing with the fact that their spouse or parents have been injured or even worse in the line of duty.
Our dogs are doing amazing things. They have been doing years. I mean, the magic of dogs is that just by being them, they make whoever's around them better. And I feel like we're lucky enough to be a part of that. It gets better every year we do it.
Annie:
Are there any opportunities for volunteering within the program for anyone listening who's a dog trainer or interested in learning more?
Nora:
Sure, we have volunteer capabilities. We have volunteers who live locally to the prisons we operate out of and in New York City. So volunteers get to bring dogs home to expose them to things that they wouldn't be exposed to in a prison environment. So yeah, definite volunteer opportunities, and an application to be able to do so can be found on our website PuppiesBehindBars.com.
Annie:
Wow. Well, I would like to do that one day for sure. Well, thank you so much for your time. I think it's really interesting what you're doing and I really appreciate it.
Nora:
Thanks. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it.
