07 JanEpisode 187 | Best Pet Ever: Writer/Producer Jessica Vitkus talks about Cookie and Coffee, her Guinea Pigs
Introducing a new series: Best Pet Ever! Wherein Annie talks to interesting people about their interesting pets. Inspired by Betty White's 1970s show, The Pet Set, Annie interviews one of her closest friends, Jessica Vitkus. Jessica is an East-Village based writer and TV producer — she was Annie's boss ten years ago on the Animal Planet show, Too Cute: Puppies and Kittens. Jessica, her kids and her partner Stephen recently got a pair of Guinea Pigs. Jessica talks about the world of Guinea Pig rescue, Guinea Pig Pavlovian Conditioning, and about how rodents may be an underused tool in couples therapy.
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Transcript:
Jessica Vitkus:
I didn't expect Guinea pigs to be so fun and funny and comical. They are ridiculous furry potatoes in appearance. But also their behavior. A Guinea pig learns that a knife on a cutting board means maybe there's food coming. So anytime we cut on the cutting board, we hear “week, week, week, week.” They make this sound, they call it weeking. And it's “week, week, week.”
Anytime plastic crackles, they think it's lettuce coming out of the fridge. So any crackling, if I am like taking batteries out of a deli bag and the bag crackles, they're like, “week, week, week.” They just, they know us. And now I think even the sound of the knife drawer opening, they get excited. “Week, week, week, week.” And also when they're happy, they cluck like chickens. It's hilarious.
[music]
Annie:
Last week saw the passing of 99 year old actress and noted animal lover and advocate Betty White. In one of the obituaries for her, I read that in the 1970s, she had something of a talk show called The Pet Set, where she basically interviewed her friends about their pets. And I thought, huh, that sounds like a fun thing to do. Her friends were 1970s celebrities. Mine are not 1970s celebrities, but they're celebrities in my life. And I will grab at any opportunity to talk to people about their dogs. It's what I love to do.
At first I thought maybe I could make it more focused and talk to people about their first dog or a dog that they've lost. But then I thought that would rule out me talking to so many of the dog owners who I've come to know at School For The Dogs who are our clients, both human and canine. So why limit things? And also, I thought why limit it just to dogs? In fact, the first person I realized I wanted to talk to for this series has a pet who is not a dog at all, but is a kind of animal I would really be curious to learn more about.
So for the very first entry into this series, which I am going to call “Best Pet Ever,” I am speaking to my good friend, Jessica Vitkus. Jessica is a writer and TV producer. We have been good friends for nearly 20 years. And about 10 years ago, I was lucky enough to be hired by Jessica when she was the executive producer for the show Too Cute: Puppies and Kittens, which aired on Animal Planet. She hired me as an associate producer/animal wrangler/dog nerd on site with facts and training recommendations.
Anyway, it was a fabulous job, really great experience for me. And during that time, I know that Jessica worked with lots of different kinds of animals, not just cats and dogs, and learned about all different kinds of animals, including pigs that people kept as pets, and hedgehogs. And so when last year she and her family got a pair of Guinea pigs, I thought that it must have been a very thoughtful choice of pet and I immediately wanted to learn more.
I hope you enjoy this conversation. If you or someone you know is a 1970s celebrity or would just like to be on this show talking about one of their pets, go ahead and send me an email, annie@schoolforthedogs.com.
I'm Jessica Vitkus. I live in the East Village. I have a boyfriend and twin girls who are eight, and two Guinea pigs named Coffee and Cookie .
Annie:
I always wanna say their names are Cookie and Sprinkles.
Jessica:
We talked about the Guinea pigs for a long time before we got them. So we talked about names cause that's fun. So we kind of picked Mango and Mochi because they're the right shape. And we love to eat both of those things, although we promised not to eat our Guinea pigs. And then we got them and the girls changed their minds about the names. And that's okay. That's a big part of pet ownership, is naming. Naming's very powerful.
Annie:
That’s true.
Jessica:
So they got to name their own pets.
Annie:
Well, they got them and they didn't look like a Mango and a Mochi, I guess.
Jessica:
They did not. They did not. Just like when I had my own children, I had whole names picked out, and I changed my mind when I saw them.
Annie:
I remember that! It was gonna be, one of them was gonna be Theodora, right?
Jessica:
Yes. Good memory. My children were gonna be, and they're actually kind of mad at me about this now, because they like my old choices better. They were gonna be Cordelia and Theodora, and they were gonna be Cocoa and Teddy and…and then they just didn't look like it. I changed my mind. They just seemed like big names for those tiny little girls. And I don't know, they just didn't fit. So I changed them. They're now Matilda and Sadie and I'm sticking to it and I legally have to for now. And uh, we're gonna go with that.
And anyway, we have Cookie and Coffee.
Annie:
Sprinkles is Coffee’s stripper name.
Jessica:
[laughs] It's her alter ego. I like it. Totally.
Annie:
Why Guinea pigs?
Jessica:
Well, I think they're a good starter pet for little kids. And Steven and I, Steve is my partner. We both love animals. He's a little bit more of a cat person. I'm a little bit more of a dog person. Although we all like all of them. And we wanted a starter pet that the kids could handle and see how it went. See if the girls helped to take care of them. And they just seemed like an on-ramp to pet ownership for little children.
And they're just small. My kids are small. You can cuddle a Guinea pig in your lap. And none of us had had Guinea pigs. We also babysat, that's part of it. We babysat for a Guinea pig named Marvin who's now in Guinea pig heaven, but we have a painting of Marvin. We loved Marvin so much. We had a painting commissioned of him and I can send you.
Annie:
Was this a school pet?
Jessica:
Nope. Marvin is my friend. Luba's Guinea pig. My adult friend who has a Guinea pig, by the way. And yeah, we babysat for Marvin when Marvin's family was on vacation, and we had such a good time. He was a solo boy Guinea pig. And Steven and I would get out Marvin at night and play with him when the kids were in bed, and the kids like Marvin, and so we wanted a Marvin of our own.
And then, you know, COVID happened, lockdown. I sort of wish we'd gotten the Guinea pigs, like the first day of coronavirus lockdown, cause it gives you something to do every single day. There's always a cage to clean and some food to feed. But we got them about a year ago.
What was it about Marvin that, how would you play with Marvin? I mean, I've spent so little time with Guinea pigs. A tiny bit of time with yours, but like they're not cuddly. Right?
Jessica:
Well, I've since learned a ton and I will pass on whatever knowledge I can, but Marvin was pretty typical, and I've since learned that Guinea pigs like to be in pairs; they're pack animals. They definitely are happier in groups, but some of 'em do okay solo, if you give them a lot of attention. And Marvin had a lot of attention at home and we gave him a lot of attention.
Guinea pigs in general and Marvin, too, do not like getting picked up, but once you pick them up and once they settle into your lap, they're pretty chill and good. And I think some Guinea pigs grow to realize that getting picked up means getting treats and pets. But you know, they're prey animals, and they just run away. They are full of fear. They need to always have a place to hide.
Annie:
How did you go about finding a Guinea pig?
Jessica:
Sort of stupidly. And I've learned more since. We go to Petco, the Petco in Union Square is perfectly lovely. And I kept going to Petco to look for the right Guinea pig. We wanted girls. Marvin was a boy. We loved Marvin. Marvin went back to his home, but Marvin stayed in our hearts.
Annie:
Was there a reason why girls?
Jessica:
Some of the boys get big testicles and I do not like them.
Annie:
[laughs]
Jessica:
They're like the size of grapes. I don't know when they grow big, but I just, I don't need to look at furry grape sized testicles on a small mammal the size of a rabbit.
Annie:
And the patriarchy. [Laughs] Don't need the constant reminder.
Jessica:
It's a constant reminder. And you know there's that, and then we've also heard boy Guinea pigs, their pee smells more, they fight more. Each individual is different, but they're a little smellier, a little more aggressive.
And then I heard these two words that were the deal breaker and the words are boar glue. So I started following these Facebook pages of Guinea pig owners just to learn. And it was so helpful. And then I saw this post about boar glue and I'm like, boar glue? And they're like, I found some boar glue and they're like, oh, the other poster said, you have to just cut the fur. Boar glue is sperm. It gets stuck in their fur and you cannot get it out unless you cut it out. And it's just gross. I'm sorry.
Annie:
Wow.
Jessica:
So once I heard about boar glue, plus more aggressive, plus the pee smelling, and plus we are a household of mostly girls, we picked girls. And then I kind of like the Guinea pigs that have, I don't even know the word. They have the fur that goes in all different directions, kind of not long hair, not short hair, in between. And the fur, it goes like–
Annie:
Is this a specific breed of Guinea pig?
Jessica:
There is a name for it. There is a kind of breed name. So I like the wacky fur, and I wanted a girl. So I kept going to Petco, looking for two girls with the crazy fur. And I was just looking and looking and like waiting for that day. And that day never came.
And then a friend of mine, another mom, they have Guinea pigs and she became my Guinea pig mentor. And she's like, do not get it at a pet store. There's no shortage of Guinea pigs who need homes. And she is right. Those Facebook pages are all like, Oh, we thought we had two boys. And then we came down this morning and there were five in the cage. They really breed. And they breed fast.
And they come out when they're born, they come out like a baby giraffe or elephant. They just come out ready to go. They are fluffy. And you know, you think of mice and hamsters have those little pinky babies that are furless, and God bless. But Guinea pigs come out hoppin’ and ready for action.
Their survival technique is reproduction. So there's so many out there. So I, I strongly advise–you know, Petco is great for supplies. But if you wanna get an animal there's so many to adopt for free and that's what we did.
Annie:
So I remember you saying you found like there was a whole Guinea pig underground.
Jessica:
There is a whole Guinea pig underground. I mean, I think Reddit has a lot. My boyfriend's on Reddit a lot learning about Guinea pigs and there's tons for adoption. I'm more Facebook-ie, so that's where I found my knowledge and my adoptable ones.
And so once I realized that I was gonna adopt, I paid closer attention to the ones online, and the comments and the world of people talking to each other. And I choose Facebook groups where people are not nasty, but people do, it does get nasty. Like “How dare you have a cage that small!” And there's, we try not to shame other pet owners. We try to help them. And I pretty much stay out of it.
Annie:
Guinea pig nastiness. Can you talk a little bit about your setup?
Jessica:
For my setup for Cookie and Coffee? My boyfriend's very handy, so he's built some things. For two Guinea pigs, you need basically two feet by four feet minimum. And there's a lot of standard cages out there that size. Then Steven built like a second floor loft. So they have a little ramp and a place to go. So they can be upstairs or downstairs. And there's some great products out there.
Guinea pigs are easy to clean after. Their poops are just like little cocoa puffs. I pick 'em up with my hands if they get in the wrong place, and they're dry. They're just like dry coffee bean, cocoa puffs. They're not gross.
Annie:
And as you explain to me, they make good fertilizer, which then led me down a rabbit hole where I found there are people out there who sell Guinea pig poop as fertilizer.
Jessica:
When you and I talked about it, I did save it for a while, but then it got gross.
Annie:
[laughs]
Jessica:
The jar I was saving it in started to get stinky. Cause it's also not very stinky. Their pee can be smelly, but the poop is just dry. They're literally like cocoa puff cereal. Don't eat it. Although they do eat their own poop. That's a very common Guinea pig thing. I've not seen it yet. I've seen it in other Guinea pigs, but they do eat their own poop.
Annie:
It's a common animal thing. Common in mammals. I mean, there's some nutritious value there. If your brain is pretty small and you gotta survive.
How are the girls with the Guinea pigs? Cause I'm always curious about what happens when people get pets for their kids. Because I think– I mean, I don't know what you're gonna say, but I feel like there are some people who set up their kids for disappointment.
Jessica:
That what, they put too much pressure on the kids to take care of the pets?
Annie:
Right. Where like kids can't take care of themselves. And then the kids feel like they're failing at taking care of the pets. Or the parent feels like, “I got this pet and you were supposed to take care of it, and now I have to do it” and is resentful.
Jessica:
I think that's really common with dogs and cats. And so part of the reason we picked Guinea pigs was hopefully this is like a middle stepping stone. And I think we're fairly successful. We lowered our expectations.
mean our girls, we have eight year old twin girls and they are interested and they are responsible and they participate, but we aren't kidding ourselves. Like we clean out the cage. But Guinea pig poops are, you know, we have a little broom and dust pan, and the girls can pick those up, can do a little sweep out. Like they're not gonna clean out the whole cage.
But yeah, basically the way you take care of Guinea pig is you have this, there's a whole world of fleece lining floor. It's like a big rug you put on the floor of their cage. And then there's an area called the kitchen to the side that's got, we put paper shavings, that's a commercial product. And we put some hay. And the place where they eat and poop is with the paper shavings. But the fleece is under most of the cage.
And the fleece is so easy to clean. You just sweep up the poops every day or every other day, and then the fleece bottom, you toss in the wash once a week and put down a new one. Then the paper shavings, when they get gross, just throw 'em out, put new ones. And every day we'll go in and take out the worst of the paper shavings that have poops and pee and then we'll scoop that part out and put in some new shavings.
So I call it mucking outta the barn. I muck out the barn like once a day or every other day. And then we do a big clean about once a week. And it's really, you've been to our house, not smelly. It's pleasant. That part has worked out.
But for the kids participating, they help clean and they definitely help feed.
Annie:
Well, they definitely seem like they spend a lot of time with the Guinea pigs.
Jessica:
They do. So I'm not gonna lie. One, kid's more into the Guinea pigs than the other, but that's fine. Our twins are fraternal, they're very different people, and Matilda is much more into the Guinea pigs. Sadie is less into them, but she wears a locket with a picture of her Guinea pig in it, and that's kind of how she wants to enjoy them. Just like admiring them from afar, wearing it in the locket. It's more Victorian approach to her pet ownership.
Annie:
I love that. [laughs]
Jessica:
Matilda, on the other hand. The first week we had them, we put them in the kitchen. We did this fun thing we should do more, where we put them in the kitchen, we block off each end with a little fence, and have a rug. And then Matilda laid down full body and put sliced peppers all over her body and had the Guinea pigs climb up on her body and eat the peppers. Like some sort of vaudeville act.
Annie:
She’s an animal trainer!
Jessica:
She's an animal trainer. And also reminded me of those women who like serve sushi off their bodies. But I'm trying to get that picture outta my mind. And instead it was her way of interacting, and she's right. Like they're incredibly into food. All they care about is food. And so putting food on your body is the best way to get a Guinea pig to climb on your body. She didn't even need to be told that, she just figured it out.
Annie:
Yeah. Well, and all also really good way to get the Guinea pig to be into you.
Jessica:
Yeah. And it worked. Yeah. So she still does that, and she and I – I actually copied her. So we've made what we call the front yard. We have the cage, it's two by four with the loft. And then we open up the front gate, and then we've put sort of cardboard fencing that creates another, like literally a front yard in front of the cage.
And we put a pillow as the ramp of freedom, and they climb down the pillow, cause the cage is elevated. So we lift up the gate, they climb down the pillow, big throw pillow, they're at floor level. And then we have, it’s probably, I don't know, five feet by five feet.
And a very important thing for Guinea pigs, very important next to food, maybe more important than food, they need to hide. What they always want is a place to hide. And your Guinea pig will always be happy if they have a place to hide. They're just hidey, fraidy animals and you gotta work with that. So we always have tunnels and cardboard boxes. They'll go under fabric and like snuggle.
Annie:
You know what might be fun is, if you haven't already, to try some of the puzzle toys that we have at School For The Dogs. Like toys with little doors and drawers that can be pushed open and that sort of thing. Forget if I brought you some like that, or we have these snuffle mats that you can hide food in. But I wonder if they would, there must be people out there who have already tried these things with Guinea pigs.
Jessica:
Oh, I would love to try that. They're not very smart, but they definitely like their food. So if there's a way to earn some food, they might be into it. I would love to try that. And if it involves hiding and digging and snuggling and tunneling, you know, they’re rodents. They're digging, hiding prey animals.
So in the front yard we put tunnels and boxes and things for them. So they always have a place to go. And also, not only a place to hide, but a place to hide and with entrance and an exit so they're not trapped. They need to feel like they can get out. So that all makes them relaxed and happy, which is good.
And so Matilda and I separately or together, we'll sit in the front yard, the Guinea pigs’ front yard, in front of their cage, and put food on our bodies. And then they climb on our bodies and get the food and they eat out of our hands. Definitely food is the way of their hearts. And we work with that all the time.
They are not that excited about getting snuggled, but I've learned from you that if we feed them, then I pet them while I'm feeding them. So they learn to enjoy like feeding is good and getting petted while getting fed is nice, and this isn't so bad.
So the girls will sit. We have a product I love called a snuggle cup. A cuddle cup. And it's just like a nest, or we use a towel, and you sit crosslegged and you put a cuddle cup in your lap or a towel. And you put a Guinea pig in your lap and you feed the Guinea pig and you pet the Guinea pig while you're feeding. And they like that.
But they don't like being caught. Getting them in your lap is a challenge. And there's lots of YouTube videos I've watched on how to catch your Guinea pig. I still can't do it. Steven has to do it. They just run away. They hate being caught. They hate the act of catching.
Annie:
Well, I wonder if there's a way to teach them some sort of stationing behavior, like going to a certain spot and staying. Well, when it's easier for us to hang in each other's apartments and I don't have two small children on top of me, I'd like to start coming over more and just playing around, doing like clicker training with them. And especially Matilda if she's into it. Cause I think it could be really, I'd have fun doing it.
Jessica:
Okay, that would be great. We'd love it. Well also learning from you, we didn’t stick with the clicker training, but we've been food training them a little bit. I've seen other Guinea pigs do tricks and I wanna teach them just basic things like putting their paw on my hands when I feed them, or even just doing, we call it a wheelie. Doing a wheelie when they go on their hind legs and stand up for food, I think is pretty darn cute.
And I showed you that video. I taught them to kiss me, but I'm not sure if I even taught them anything. I think it's just what they do. But I make them touch their nose to my nose when I give 'em a treat. And now every time I feed them, I make a kissy noise. I go [kiss sound] to let them know like food's coming =. So now if I go to the cage and I make kissy noise, they come out, they know that that means food is coming.
So yeah, we're using kissing noises as a cue for food, tapping the ground in front of them as a cue for food.
Annie:
Now you've done some traveling with your Guinea pigs, right?
Jessica:
We have a weekend house upstate with a yard and we bring the Guinea pigs with us in a cat carrier, which they seem to enjoy. It's small and cozy and they like to hide in small cozy places. and in nice weather, we take them outside and it's so funny and fun. My daughter Matilda will lifeguard them, set up a little garden fence. It's like a eight inch tall wire fence that we make a rectangle out of. And we put the Guinea pigs in there in the space. It's like, I don't know, six feet by six feet.
And the Guinea pigs are so happy because they love grass and dandelions and clover. We've got plenty of all of those. And so imagine if the floor was made of chocolate ice cream for you or me, that's what it's like for them. So they are very, very happy and they just sit like little funny rabbit cows and graze on the grass in the weather. But we have to get them tunnels and boxes to hide in and we do. And they just are so, so happy. And it's like a little farm scene. I love it.
Annie:
Can you tell the anecdote that I will always remember as the time Steven mistook a Guinea pig for a bear?
Jessica:
So one day upstate, I was bringing the Guinea pigs outside. And their little wire pen was mostly set up. It had three walls. I had to put on the fourth wall. And my hands were full with the Guinea pigs in their carrier. And I put them down in the grass and I let them out. But the fourth wall was not up. And my daughter Matilda freaked out and started screaming, screaming at the top of her lungs. And of course it scared the Guinea pigs, but they just kind of froze.
And my boyfriend came, came out. He thought, he thought a bear was attacking us because of her level of screams. And she thought that the Guinea pigs were gonna run away and we're like, where would they go? She's like, they're going to run into the street! I'm like, have you seen how long their legs are? They're like one inch long, and they're in the middle of the grass where they wanna be. And they don't really move or run like ever.
But she was highly concerned. So we calmed her down, put up the fourth wall. Well, but she does sit like a lifeguard when the Guinea pigs are outside.
Annie:
Well, thank you so much, Jessica, for being the very first Best Pet Ever guest. And before you go, I just thought maybe you could share what you shared with me about how having Cookie and Coffee in your home has helped your relationship with Steven.
Jessica:
Steven around the Guinea Pigs is just his kindest, sweetest self. And he's a kind sweet person in general, but I could be mad at him about, I don't know, you know, the bedroom being messy or something stupid. And, then he's this six foot four big person. And there he is on the ground holding a Guinea pig and saying, “Hi there, hi little buddy. Do you want some lettuce? Or do you want parsley? Oh, I got you.” And he, just him talking to the Guinea pig. I just melted, my heart melts. It's so sweet. And he's completely serious.
The other thing he does that I love, I'll be working. We've all been working at home. And I'll be at my computer working, and I'll hear footsteps behind me. And I can tell from the way he's walking – it's a gentle, even walk – that he's holding a Guinea pig. And I'll be in the middle of my day. I might be grumpy. And I'll hear the gentle walk of a Guinea pig tamer walking over to me and he'll bring me a Guinea pig to just hold and put in my lap. And it brightens my day. It calms me down.
Guinea pig therapy, it could be a side hustle we start. Couples come in, they just have to hold Guinea pigs, talk to the Guinea pigs. And then they see the best in them. I'm all for it.
[music and outro]
