21 JanEpisode 189 | Does the Pope hate dog owners? A conversation with one of the pontiff’s former secretaries, Professor Dan Gallagher of Cornell University
James Joyce said that Catholicism means "Here comes everybody." But does "everybody" mean our Yorkiepoos, too?
Earlier this month, Pope Francis made the remark that "many, many couples do not have children because they do not want to, or they have just one – but they have two dogs, two cats… Yes, dogs and cats take the place of children [...] And this denial of fatherhood or motherhood diminishes us, it takes away our humanity." Annie, who is not Catholic, wondered if this pooh-poohing of pet ownership was echoing the church's stance on our relationships with non-human animals, or if maybe the Pope was going rogue. So, she called her friend Dan Gallagher, a professor of Classics at Cornell University. Professor Gallagher is uniquely qualified to discuss this topic: He used to be one of the Pope's secretaries and translators. He also grew up breeding Cocker Spaniels, and once gave a funeral to a hamster. He and Annie discuss some of the Catholic church's past champions of animals -- from Saint Francis of Assisi to cat-lover Pope Benedict -- try to parse the Pope's words, and wonder if maybe it's time for Pope Francis to try his hand at...pet sitting.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Read the Pope's full January 6th catechesis
Learn more about Daniel Gallagher
Learn more about the Paideia Institute
Donate to the School For The Dogs Scholarship Fund
Get a tile in the School For The Dogs Mosaic
Transcript:
Annie:
I want to read a few paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that my friend Dan sent me the other day, on the Respect for the integrity of creation, 2415:
The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.
Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.
God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.
It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
You may wonder why I'm reading Catholic texts on this very secular podcast about dog training. Well, A couple weeks ago, the Pope was speaking about St. Joseph, Jesus' father, or adoptive or foster father. And the talk went in an interesting direction.
He said:
To bring a child into the world is not enough to say that one is also their father or mother. ‘Fathers are not born, but made. A man does not become a father simply by bringing a child into the world, but by taking up the responsibility to care for that child. Whenever a man accepts responsibility for the life of another, in some way he becomes a father to that person.’ I think particularly of all those who are open to welcoming life by way of adoption, which is such a generous and beautiful, good attitude. Joseph shows us that this type of bond is not secondary; it is not second best. This kind of choice is among the highest forms of love and of fatherhood and motherhood. How many children in the world are waiting for someone to take care of them! And how many married couples want to be fathers and mothers but are unable to do so for biological reasons, or, although they already have children, they want to share their family’s affection with those who do not have it. We should not be afraid to choose the path of adoption, to take the “risk” of welcoming.
And today, even with orphanhood, there is a certain selfishness. The other day, I spoke about the demographic winter that exists nowadays: people do not want to have children, or just one and no more. And many couples do not have children because they do not want to, or they have just one because they do not want any more, but they have two dogs, two cats…. Yes, dogs and cats take the place of children. Yes, it is funny, I understand, but it is the reality. And this denial of fatherhood or motherhood diminishes us; it takes away our humanity. And in this way, civilization becomes more aged and without humanity, because it loses the richness of fatherhood and motherhood. And our homeland suffers as it does not have children, and, as someone said somewhat humorously, ‘and now that there are no children, who will pay the taxes for my pension? Who will take care of me?’ He laughed, but it is the truth. I ask of St. Joseph the grace to awaken consciences to think about this: about having children. Fatherhood and motherhood are the fullness of the life of a person. Think about this. It is true, there is the spiritual fatherhood of those who consecrate themselves to God, and spiritual motherhood; but those who live in the world and get married have to think about having children, of giving life, because they will be the ones to shut their eyes, who will think about the future. And also, if you cannot have children, think about adoption. It is a risk, yes; having a child is always a risk, either naturally or by adoption. But it is riskier not to have them. It is riskier to deny fatherhood or to deny motherhood, be it real or spiritual. A man or a woman who does not voluntarily develop a sense of fatherhood or motherhood is lacking something fundamental, something important. Think about this, please.
Now these words of the Pope have been put all around the internet saying, basically, clearly the Pope, hates pets. And plenty of people have pointed out that it sort of feels like hypocrisy to be using such florid language about the beauty of adoption when the church does not allow same sex couples to adopt, and to extolling the virtues of parenthood when priests themselves, and the Pope, of course, do not have children themselves.
I was curious to read the full catechesis that he gave – what I just read was most of it – after having read bits and pieces here and there in the last couple weeks and was interested to see that it really seemed to me like it was about how we can grow as people by welcoming family members into our lives that are not necessarily blood relatives.
But he is saying that that excludes any non-human animal that we may welcome into our family, which I personally disagree with. I tend to not refer to dogs as fur babies. I don't think they are children. I think it's a different kind of relationship. But the love you feel towards a pet is real and precious, and I think should be honored by others, even if they can't quite understand it.
And I do know plenty of people who have chosen to not have children for any number of reasons but have still been able to benefit from all the joy that comes with opening up their hearts and their homes to adopted members of the family who are not human.
Now, does it irritate me that the Pope does not seem to smile on people loving pets or spending money and time and resources on pets that he thinks should be spent on children instead? Mmm, not really. I mean, partially I suppose, because I'm not Catholic. But also because I think that even if you are Catholic, there's a lot of picking and choosing that seems to go on about what you may or may not choose to agree with or believe.
This did not seem like some kind of mandate he was saying, no one can have pets. It was his opinion. And yes, he is the Pope, but I don't think he's saying that if you have a dog, you are not a good Catholic. And a lot of religion is like this. I mean, I'm Jewish, but I almost never go to synagogue and I am pretty against circumcision, for instance. But I don't think if I had an uncircumcised boy baby, that I would be any less Jewish. I may have however disappointed some people in my family.
Anyway, religion is not something I really know that much about as a whole. And Catholicism in particular is a religion that I have had many questions about through the years. A lot of things in Catholicism that honestly never made that much sense to me, but it seemed like they made sense to a whole lot of other people. And in the last few years, I've actually had a lot of opportunities to ask really smart Catholics about some parts of Catholicism that I never understood.
The reason for this is my husband runs a company, a nonprofit called Paideia, and they support people who are working to learn ancient languages, specifically ancient Greek and Latin. It's interesting, cause I actually think there are so many parallels in the two businesses we run in that they're both about teaching people about this thing that we're so passionate about, but specifically trying to teach using positive reinforcement.
Something like Latin is something that, I think, traditionally, a lot of people have learned in school because they have to learn it. If they don't learn it, something bad will happen. Broadly speaking, it's been something that's been taught, I would say, by negative reinforcement.
And outside of school, most people have not been hugely incentivized to learn these ancient languages because they're not languages that are gonna help you put food on the table in most cases, or allow you to travel with ease, or converse with new people. And the opportunities to make new connections and travel and work, et cetera, are reasons why so much language learning, at least language learning beyond school, where it's about getting good grades. There are lots of ways in which learning modern spoken languages are positively reinforced.
And what Jason and Paideia have done is actually try to make it more positively reinforcing to learn these dead languages by encouraging people to speak these dead languages as if they were living languages, which has made for opportunities for people to connect with each other in lots of different ways.
And he also runs travel programs to Italy and France and Greece among other places in order to bring some of that joy of traveling to the task of learning a new language, which again, I think makes the whole task of learning language a lot more positively reinforcing and enticing and exciting. So there's so many interesting parallels, I think, between what it is that I do and what he does.
Anyway, it's on some of these trips where I've met incredibly intelligent Catholic people and I've learned a lot. I had the chance to meet the Pope’s astronomer who explained to me that it was actually a Catholic priest who first came up with the idea of the Big Bang Theory.
And I've also made friends with some devout Catholics who have occasionally put up with me quizzing them on things that totally confusing to me. Like, do you really think that you're eating the body of Christ when you're eating the Eucharist? Do you think that Joseph and Mary really didn't have sex? And they have all been so tolerant of my questions and have given me lots of time and thoughtful answers.
And while I think there's still a lot about Catholicism that I don't get, I think I am more appreciative of how nuanced a world it is.
When I saw this kerfuffle happening on the internet about the Pope’s words a couple weeks ago, I thought, wow, I would really love to talk to some of my super intelligent Catholic friends, what they think of the Pope’s thoughts on pets. And I realized there was probably no better person to talk to than Dan Gallagher.
Dan and his wife, Mary, who live in Ithaca, are some of favorite people in the Paideia community. And Dan, I figured, probably has a more subtle read on the Pope's thinking than anyone else, since Dan actually worked for the Pope. Everything the Pope says gets translated into many, many languages, one of them being Latin and for several years, Dan was the person at the Vatican in charge of translating the Pope’s words into Latin. So I gave him a call to hear his thoughts on the Pope and pets.
[theme music]
[phone ringing]
Dan Gallagher:
Hello?
Annie:
Hey Dan, how are you?
Dan:
Good, Annie, how are you?
Annie:
Good. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk.
Dan:
My pleasure. It's a great topic.
Annie:
Maybe we can get started, you can just sort of introduce yourself and your background, I guess I can call it your background in Catholicism.
Dan:
Sure. So I grew up a Catholic, and during college I decided to pursue seminary studies to become a Catholic priest. And I was ordained a Catholic priest after a long and arduous four years of post undergraduate studies, and served for a priest for about 20 years, after which time I asked for a dispensation, in other words that I had realized I really had made a mistake in thinking that my life was meant to be as a celibate.
And with Pope's permission, entered into marriage and have children, and currently teach classes at Cornell University. But my background as a Catholic is also formed by some direct experience in working at the Vatican, both for Pope Benedict XVI and for Pope Francis, and getting to know them a bit and working on their personal secretarial staff, both in the English language and in the Latin language.
So it gave me some insights into not only the way the Vatican works, but the way that popes express themselves when they're trying to convey, or let's say expand upon an article of Catholic faith or some point of Catholic teaching or something like that.
So I should add to that, that it gave me an insight into how easily, just like everything else in the world, something can spin out of control once it's left the Pope's mouth. And I saw many examples of this. And even now having left that work, I realize that I'm kind of privileged with a certain insight when I do see something that, so to speak, spins out of control once it’s out of the Pope’s mouth. Yeah. So I'm a practicing Catholic and in a married state, but a former cleric, meaning a former active priest as well.
Annie:
And not a pet owner, I should say.
Dan:
Yeah. I grew up with pets.
Annie:
Oh, you did?
Dan:
Yeah. Dogs. Love cats and dogs. Currently, we would love to have a cat or dog or both but feel that the kids just need another year or so. So, we bred Cocker Spaniels when I was growing up. And I loved that. I have very fond memories of the litters that we bred. Purebred. And I should add to that, it really gave me an appreciation for the care it takes, I mean, obviously for pets, but especially when you are attempting to breed dogs, and to pure breed dogs.
But that was such a fantastic experience. Probably my most formative experience I can think of, you know, especially the day that the pups were born. And then the care that it took to the whole family to raise them.
Annie:
So the Pope, what he said was, and I'm just pulling out a couple quotes here. He said “Today, we see a form of selfishness. We see that some people do not want to have a child. Sometimes they have one and that's it, but they have dogs and cats that take the place of children.” And what is your, what was your immediate thought hearing this?
Dan:
Yeah, I saw that news when it came out and I had a couple of thoughts initially. One is that, having worked for the Pope and knowing him, he's kind of, it's a bit of, part of maybe an Argentine character, when he gets on something he wants to say, he just says it without any, let's say kind of sugar coating, or crafting. It just comes out very kind of matter of fact and frank. So that was the first thing that came to mind.
The second thing that came to mind was that for people who were to read what he said, or to hear what he said, and they didn't have a context in which to place it, they might fail to recognize he's speaking of extreme cases. So he's not by any means stating something that's kind of a general teaching of the Catholic church. In fact the overwhelming weight of what's available for people to digest and to learn about Catholic teaching is very positive about domestic animals and animals in general creation, all of that.
So without one knowing that context, they might think that what he's primarily stating and saying those words is something about animals or pets. Whereas what he has in mind is a very extreme case. In other words, someone who let's say uses animals and pets as substitutions for children.
Now, of course, that excludes people who, of course, maybe they don't have children at home. Maybe they don't intend to have children, maybe they're elderly and they need a pet. All of those things, the Pope would be the first one to say, by all means animals are a gift from God. They're wonderful companions, and that should be encouraged and fostered. So that has to be acknowledged as well.
But he does have this extreme kind of case in mind. Now how we pick apart – if various people would sit down and say, okay, can we agree on what an extreme case would be? That would be harder, right? Because some people probably have greater insights into both the psychology of human beings and their desire for children, their ability to have children and so on. And other people would have insights into pets and of course the wonderful things that they could do and so on.
But his main point, as I say, it it's his way of speaking. Sometimes it's kind of like it's very raw and it comes out very raw and sometimes it's with a why sense of humor as well. And I do think there is a sense of humor in this as well. In other words, we have to think, you know, that he was not saying it with any kind of bitterness, but in a semi humorous way. Now, maybe we don't appreciate that sense of humor. I don't think it's right for him to use this example as something humorous, but nevertheless, that's probably what he intended is semi humorously.
Annie:
Huh. Okay.
Dan:
But if I could just add, it also has to be put into the context of the overall teaching of, so to speak, nature as an integral whole. In other words, that according to Catholic beliefs, and, I think, most Christians believe, there's sort of a hierarchy to creation. So there's creation as a whole, and each part of creation has its part to play, which is extremely important, but there is a hierarchical kind of ordering in that according to Catholic teaching that it's the human being that God created specifically in God's own image.
So in other words, endowed with basically reason and free will. So one way to put that in a philosophical way that I think most people can understand is that human beings are constituted as moral creatures. We choose right and wrong. We do things that are wonderfully good, but then also shockingly evil. And in a way that – and again, I'm expressing Catholic belief – that the rest of creation is not endowed with that capability. Even higher animals, so to speak. That they don't have that developed moral sense.
Now, some could argue that perhaps there is a limited type of, you know, moral sense, especially in primates and things like that. But – let's say that even that's true – what we really recognize, I think empirically, is that human beings have been endowed with this incredible difference with respect to other animals and other creatures.
And for that reason – and again, this is putting it back into the context of what the Pope said – it's difficult for us to live with one another as human beings, because we are capable of such terribly mean and cruel acts, right? And it's hard to get along. Whereas it's easier to get along with the rest of creation, in a way.
And what's wonderful about that is because God created, in fact, this is official Catholic teaching, is that let's say let's just take a special animal like dogs and cats. We can think of other domesticated animals, too, pets, but stick dog dogs and cats. The Catholic Church teaches that their very existence gives God praise.
So they don't have to choose, you know, to do what's right or wrong. Like they pee on the carpet. Okay. I mean, that's not a good thing, and we teach them not to do that. Maybe, you know, they're not morally choosing. And so in a way their very existence, the very fact that they exist gives glory to God, they don't need to do anything more.
Now human beings give glory to God just by their very existence. It's true. But the way that human beings, because of this special gift of intelligence and will, give glory to God, is actually by choosing to do good things. And what's sad is that we can also not choose to do good things. We can choose to do bad things or be indifferent in ways that other animals do not.
So even though there's a hierarchical ordering of animals, and within nature, and basically within creation, there's this hierarchical kind of ordering of the various parts of creation, animals have an easier time of this. I mean, it's a lot easier for them because they just give glory to God.
St. Francis of Assisi is a super example of this. He wrote these canticles, like the Canticle of the Sun and these psalms, just admiring how animals, just by their very existence, they just glorify God. And then they cause us to glorify God. So by seeing animals, by seeing the marvels that they can do, I mean even their intelligence, their ingenuity, their beauty, just their sheer beauty. It helps us to give glory to God.
And from that point of view they're absolutely necessary for human beings in order to understand who God is, because then we understand that God endowed the world with these incredible creatures.
So human beings are complicated creatures. And what Francis is basically saying, is that, listen, if, okay, this is the extreme case. If you're trying to avoid the murky, you know, the day to day sadnesses and joys and struggles and sorrows of being a parent, and you would rather not engage in that challenge of developing yourself, and what you do is you, you know, kind of like substitute that with other animals, then maybe there's something balance, right? Maybe you are copping out of embarking upon the human adventure of learning what it means to love another human being, you know, in certain ways.
So, yeah, that's about all I can say. So I would say that the important thing to keep in mind is what came out of the press with these recent things. He he has very extreme and probably very limited cases in mind.
Annie:
Well, I think as a dog trainer and someone who lives among people who, in some cases I think are making the choice to, call it ‘be a parent’ to a pet rather than to people. But, two things that have come to mind based on what you're saying and what I understand I think of what he was saying.
One is that, and at least this is my point of view, again, as someone who has worked with people who have dogs who have issues, sometimes it can be much harder to deal with a pet rather than a person cause with other people, we have a common language, we have basically the same needs. And when we're living with pets, we're living with animals that don't have our language, don't have our needs, and live shorter lives usually which is its own struggle.
I mean, there are certainly people who choose to not have pets because they don't wanna have to deal with their pet dying, which, you know, in most cases, fortunately, hopefully we don't have to deal with the death of our own children. We hope to not deal with it.
Dan:
Right. That actually sheds light, I think, on the integrity of what the church is viewing as far as creation. So in other words, that's a very good example of ways in which that learning experience – just take the lifespan, right, that we have to grieve over pets in a way, in a shorter time span. If that helps to become more integral human beings and, say, allows us to grieve suffering humanity as well. You know, learn how to grieve the loss of, let's say maybe your mother or father that we didn't have a good relationship with. Then that's just the integrity of it. And there's, it's kind of a circular, dialectical relationship with animals that we have that make us deeper human beings and relate to human beings in another way.
So what you just said, is also, accords very well with that kind of integral view, and what Pope Benedict the 16th called an ecology. So an ecology of creation. In other words, the way we live in harmony with creation. If we learn things from animals and if we suffer because of having to care for animals in a way that we would suffer, you know, more than if we were even caring for a son or whatever, then that makes us a better human being. And we can turn to our fellow human beings, hopefully in a deeper way, in a more meaningful way by that experience with, with our pets, with our own pets.
Annie:
Well, what about the fact that we are animals though? I mean, I think this is an uncomfortable place that I've gotten to in conversations with people who are religious, not just Catholic. I mean, human exceptionalism is understandable. And yet we share nearly 4 billion years of evolution with all the other animals that exist right now.
Dan:
Yeah. That also Accords well with the kind of ecology of creation. In other words, the sense that those who believe in God, that God created each one of these animals, including you and me and all human beings, with a plan in mind. And that there is something shared.
So, it's a very interesting word, exceptionalism. This would be a word – I don't know about other Christians, but Catholics would reject this word because it's never used in Catholic teaching. It is true that the Catholic church teaches that there is something about the immortality of the human soul that makes the human being a special kind of animal. But it doesn't deny the animality of the human being. And in fact, much of church teaching emphasizes the common animality of human beings with the rest of animate beings with the rest of animals.
Personally, aside from my Catholic faith, I view this as a way in which I do relate to animals and pets that I've had, that it's sort of almost like subconscious, but you know you're both animals. You can meet the eyes of your dog, let's say, right. And they're communicated. That is at the basis of being common, coming from the same place. And coming from the same place, evolutionarily, yes, so to speak, but even coming from the same place for those who believe in God is that, you know, our pets are no less creations than human beings are.
So I think the Catholic church embraces that commonality.
Annie:
I thought the Catholic church came at it more from a kind of from more of like the Rene Descartes point of view of they’re just fancy machines. Or, has the Catholic church moved away from that?
Dan:
Yeah. I mean, Descartes, even though he died a very faithful Catholic interestingly. But Descartes, he had a lot of beliefs that, well, he didn't get from Catholicism and really don't accord with Catholicism. The automaton thing of animals is not something shared by the church.
And the church actually, even what he taught that was not…there may have been Catholics who philosophically would've kind of explained the difference between human beings and animals in this kind of way. And Descartes would be one that would do that. He has a mechanistic view of the – I mean, in a sense of the human person as well, and the relationship between the soul and the body and everything, which was also really not very Catholic.
But I don't even, the Catholic church has moved away from it because I don't think the Catholic church has ever really kind of embraced or even perpetuated this, the automaton kind of view of animals.
But, that said, in a different kind of realm, and this is where it gets very interesting. The Catholic church doesn't say explicitly what the place and role of animals – let's again, just take common house pets like cats and dogs. We can include other animals. What happens to them after this life? In other words, what heaven is like?
So the church doesn't have anything explicit to say on this. There are things we can infer by knowing that human beings have a soul that makes them very special and different from cats and dogs, but there have been different kinds of declarations, you know, non-doctrinal, so to speak, about what heaven will be like.
Now, again, St. Francis, easily one of the most, maybe the most famous Saint aside from Mary in the Catholic tradition, just extolled the place of animals to the point that it would almost be impossible to think in his own mind that animals didn't have a better place in eternal life for their life to come.
Now I remember too in working for Pope Francis, and more than once, it came out once in the press, I think, but when he was asked, particularly by children who had lost a pet and were grieving over that, I don't hesitate to say because I heard it from his own mouth that he would console them by saying that they would be reunited with them in heaven. Now he wasn't speaking, so to speak, official Catholic doctrine in saying that, but he wasn't speaking against any official teaching in that, because the church doesn't really have a developed teaching about what heaven will be like as far as the place of animals in heaven to come.
But, personally, I joined the camp of, again, faithful Catholics who believe that all, all creation has some kind of a place in the world to come. And that I don't find it to be farfetched for any Catholic to believe that part of our happiness will involve almost a recreation of all of creation, including animals in and pets that we've loved, who have passed on.
Annie:
I like that idea.
Dan:
I like it too. I mean, let me just share one personal anecdote that was kind of interesting. After I was ordained a priest, my very first day, very first day in the parish. So the church where I was assigned, and the church is connected to the school. So, the principal is all distraught and comes down and asks that I can come down because the gerbil of the kindergartners just died. And they were distraught, obviously. Their pet gerbil, you know, in the classroom actually escaped from the cage, and, you know, got somewhere where it shouldn’t have been. It was, it was lifeless.
So I throw on my cassock, and I ran down there and everybody, including the teacher, is bawling in tears. Because the children are. So, we very carefully constructed, kind of a makeshift casket. And we had a beautiful ceremony. And here I am a newly ordained priest, you know, and not expecting to do this my first day of the job. And I just prayed. I prayed for inspiration, you know, for something to pray, and the words came out. I don't remember what they were.
But I do remember one thing, whatever the words were, I focused on what a blessing this hamster was to these children and to this classroom, you know, and that we could never forget that. And we had to remember that. So we had to memorialize this hamster with a proper burial, but also a proper, like marker. And we made a makeshift marker. And then the children came back out after they had used some cardboard to write messages of thanks, and all this stuff.
So there was a ritualistic kind of part to the grieving that I thought was very appropriate. And whatever one would think about Christianity’s kind of thoughts and ideas about animals, there it came really whole to myself and for all those to everybody, that this was a blessing for which we could never give enough thanks to God.
And we could use that for even our own pets. I mean, the enormous blessing that they are in our lives is something that just causes me to just marvel. Like, what did we do to deserve this kind of gift? What does a really good pet do? And I've had good pets, you know, you just feel, I am so unworthy of this, you know, fidelity, whatever it is.
Annie:
Yeah.
The Catholic church is well known for praising procreation. So I can understand, as little as I know about Catholicism, that the Pope would want people out there making babies rather than, you know, fur babies. I hate that term that some people use actually, cause I feel like pets are not our babies. Anyway, but I can understand that that could be an impetus. Like, Hey, why are you devoting your life and your energies to a pet rather than having children? Go forth and have children.
But then I think, as a whole though, isn't the population kind of out of control? Like shouldn't we be not encouraging – I mean, it gets into larger issues, right, about like contraception and abortion and all kinds of other things. But I of course feel like the only people who should have children are people who want to have children, and people who would rather have a pet than a child, like, Hey go you, because that's one fewer car on the road, you know, more trees that aren't gonna be turned into toilet paper, cetera, et cetera.
Dan:
Right. Yeah.
Annie:
And fewer children in homes where somebody would rather have a maltipoo than a kid, like let them have the dog.
Dan:
Yeah. Yeah. I think you point on several good things there and I think it is true. Well, first of all, the whole thing about the, let's say, world population, all that. That we kind of leave to, you know, scientists to debate and law to debate. But I understand, I mean, that is a good thing for us to consider.
But let's put that to the side and think about what you've just said, which is an extremely important point, that some people simply don't want to have children, or maybe they wouldn't make the best parents anyway, you know, for whatever reason. So, shouldn't it be that it's this act of charity, right, to refrain from having children. And I think that's okay.
In fact, the responsible parenthood or responsibly choosing not to be a parent would be supported by the church, if they're for the right reasons. So the church doesn't necessarily promote – it's not so much that the Catholic church is out to promote procreation at no cost or whatever, or every cost, I suppose, in other words, if that's an end in itself.
It's more encouraging people to very carefully deliberate upon what it means to be a parent and have children and to not have misconceptions about what it means to be a parent. In other words, that if there is this fear of taking on a responsibility, that that might be misplaced, right.
But again, if there's a legitimate reason for which even a married couple decides that they should not have children at a certain point in time, or maybe forever, for whatever reasons, medical reasons or whatever, the church would support that. The church would, and it would not in any way make that couple feel as if they're making the wrong choice or are not fully living a fruitful, married life as a couple or without children. And that couple, I think would be like the perfect couple, if they like animals, they should then like have lots of them in order to make themselves happy.
So again, these are kind of like special cases. But as a general kind of thing, if there's trend for people to avoid, so to speak, having children, let's say, placing a respect on other elements of creation, it really is more due to that element of creation, human beings, who are created in this unique, special way, destined for a kind of eternal life that makes them special and different for the rest of creation.
So that's when it becomes problematic, in other words, at least in the Church’s eyes. When there's a dignity, a uniqueness that should be the uniqueness of human beings, that's being placed on other elements of maybe not just even animals, but I mean plant life, or goods, you know, like food or things like that. So things that can become addictive, even. It’s a misplaced desire that the Church is concerned about. And that misplacing can occur when it comes to relating with animals, at least in Francis' mind when he said what he said recently.
Annie:
So do you think it's possible that the next Pope could turn around and say, Go have as many pets as you wanna have?
Dan:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's a very good question. And it does come down to, a little bit, that what the Pope says reflects his own personal tastes, which have little to do with being Pope or Catholic or Christian or whatever. And he does love. I would say he loves animals. As far as I remember, he's never had a pet and he has no interest in a pet. It's just not his nature, so to speak, or his character, that he enjoys that.
Pope Benedict XVI, his predecessor, on and off had cats. He loved cats, he's still alive. He loves cats. He goes out to the garden, the Vatican gardens, or he was until fairly recent times, to just actually just spend time with them. He actually kind of more liked cats, but not having them in the house so much, you know, was his kind of preference, but he loved them.
But what I'm saying is yes, the next pope could come and say something very different and might not reflect so much – well it won't reflect any change in Catholic teaching. It might reflect, to a good extent, his own personal preference because he's a dog lover or cat lover or whatever. And we've had some popes who are, you know, who are pet owners and pet lovers have directly observed Pope Benedict XVI interacting with cats. It's extremely touching. Because they love him. And when he comes walking, you know, they come running.
I saw the tenderness you would see in this man. He was a very tender man, too, despite kind of a public image of being, you know, what do they call him? You know, God's rottweiler or whatever. He's an extremely tender person and very simple, extremely simple in his tastes. And part of that, that simplicity was revealed the way that he would just interact with cats. Mostly again were not his own.
The times that I do remember were mostly him not having a house cat. But he did, you know, there were times in his life where he did. So he had lots of cats to interact with. And they knew him, you know, and they would know his tenderness towards them. It was really astounding to see that.
I mean, what it left in my heart was this sense of when it comes to animals, even those that are not ours, they just bring us back to genuinely who we are. They bring us back, I think, to honesty, to simplicity, you know, our problems seem so overwhelming at times and how little it takes to just put all those problems in perspective.
And I saw that with him, I mean, bearing the weight of the church on his shoulders and to not allow that weight on his shoulders to prevent him from several moments of enjoying God's creation through cats was quite a lesson for me.
Annie:
So it sounds like for those who are upset that the Pope said this, sounds like what you would say would be, this is not necessarily the point of view of all Catholicism. Even if these are the words that left the Pope's mouth, he is speaking in extremes and suggesting that people not shy away from difficult relationships – which I guess you could say is a denial of the fact that there can be difficult interspecies relationships as well, but… but does that sound like a good summation with what you're saying?
Dan:
Yeah. That's a really good summary. I mean, you summarize it very well. I would add just this, that someone could be a perfectly good Catholic and completely disagree with what the Pope said. In other words, one could basically say that such people, you know, there aren't those extremes. I mean, in other words, you could be a good Catholic and say, well, I think that everyone who has a healthy relationship with pets, let's say none of them are substituting children with that. In other words, they have good intentions.
And so the Pope was more speaking a personal opinion, but one that he holds very firmly about a phenomenon, namely, that there are people who do so substitute children with pets, and maybe do so in a very imbalanced way. But that is his opinion. One could hold a different opinion and still hold the same Catholic faith that he does, and submit themselves to his authority.
Annie:
Right. Okay.
Dan:
You can sit down at the table with him and say, you know, I don't think what you just said at the general audience is very correct. And you wouldn't be challenging anything that's officially church doctrine at all. That's what I wanted to emphasize in our conversation, that the teaching, the official teaching is very positive and much different than what he said at that specific general audience. Much more positive about the integral and indisputable value of nature and in particular animals as God's creatures in giving him glory.
So the, the quote that I would say from the Catechism is, is “by their mere existence animals bless God, and give God glory.” So.
Annie:
Well, this has been really interesting. Thank you so much for talking with me and for putting up with my ignorance about Christianity as a whole, and Catholicism in particular.
Dan:
Oh, my pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about it, and it helps me to think through it too, because I think every good Catholic has to revisit these issues. And if the Catholic faith or anybody's Christian faith, or any faith that one has, if it's supposed to embrace every part of human life in one way or another, then we have to be to think about things that are, one, of extreme value and importance to us like pets, but, two, are very difficult.
One of my favorite definitions, James Joyce, actually, I think it's in Finnigan's Wake. His definition of Catholicism was, Here comes everybody. Which is kind of a very vagabond, varied group. And I think Manhattan would be one of the best places to see that Here comes everybody definition of Catholicism.
Annie:
That's interesting. Well, and also like, there's so many, I also thought like, you were either in or out in Catholicism, but there's so much room for mistakes, actually, that I totally as an outsider did not understand that there was sort of room for human fallibility.
Dan:
Yeah. And I had to, in a similar way to what you've expressed, I mean, even as a Catholic, I went through a certain transformation. When I was on the papal staff, I had this kind of extreme reverence for whoever the Pope was, that you just had to respect everything. And then the longer I worked there, and especially, I was there when Pope Francis was elected. I was seasoned a little bit over several years of working for Pope Benedict, and I started to realize, you know, wait, I can disagree with the Pope.
And I was writing for him, you know, I could say, I think you should say this– he probably doesn't agree. But I think he should say this or that. So there's a humanity that's behind the white cassock that he wears. And that helped even develop a deeper reverence, because there's a certain empathy that came, you know, for anyone who has to carry that role. Has to [inaudible] authoritatively and accept what the church teaches. But beyond that is someone who holds opinions, who makes mistakes, who – sometimes big mistakes, who regrets mistakes, who comes with all kinds of baggage, you know, that all of us do.
So for me to get that kind of view of the Pope, whoever happens to be the Pope, it helped my maturation. It helped my maturation from somewhat of a naive Catholic view of, well, you just take whatever the Pope says and, like it or not, he's the one in charge.
Annie:
Yeah. I wonder if anybody in the aftermath of this has sent him a hamster. [laughs]
Dan:
Yeah. That wouldn’t be a bad thing. He would find ways of passing it off on like the sisters who take care of him or something like that. [laughs] But, I wouldn't be surprised because I saw lots of gifts that the popes get, and I never saw a pet now that you mention it. That's interesting. Someone giving – well, I have to think anyway –
Annie:
Yeah, you don't really think about the Pope cuddling with a golden doodle.
Dan:
Yeah, exactly. And maybe he's the kind of person who would say, if somebody actually who he respects would say, you know, Pope, I don't really like what you said. Here, take Max for, you know, four weeks or whatever. And I would see him saying, Oh yeah, you know, you're right. I actually should do that, cause I've never had that before. And then maybe he would speak, maybe he would change his opinion, but he would think twice before speaking in the way that he did in that general audience.
Annie:
Yeah.
Dan:
And I’m saying that with respect. I'm not saying that I think that he spoke wrongly or he shouldn’t have said, I'm just saying that that's where the humanity comes out. It’s that, the more experience one has, the more one realizes that when they say something, especially with that kind of authority behind it, then they have to be very careful about how it can be interpreted.
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Annie:
I wanted to offer special thanks to our longtime client, Heather Frazier, who just gave a generous donation to our scholarship fund. You can learn more about the scholarship fund at schoolforthedogs.com/fund. We use money from the fund to help people with rescue dogs who are in financial need to access good dog training with a goal of keeping dogs from being relinquished to shelters for behavioral reasons.
Heather writes:
Mac got fired from three different dog walkers in New York City because of his isolation, distress and herding behaviors when he feared people leaving him. It was thanks to you and the team at School for the Dogs that helped me understand how to work with him using positive reinforcement to give him a reliable routine that decreased his stress, as well as enough mental stimulation to keep him challenged and always learning. We're an inseparable pair, and now a family with two other humans and another doggo because of it.
I've used the tools I learned from your team with Mac, with our newest puppy, Bella, in order to set our relationship up for success. Giving someone that can’t afford it the opportunity to learn the tools they need to build a successful and meaningful relationship with their dog is an opportunity I couldn't pass up. It makes us all better humans with animals, and it also decreases the chance of another dog ending up in a shelter.
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We are currently offering a mosaic tile to everyone who contributes to the fund at th hundred dollars level or above. The tile is going in a beautiful mosaic created by Jim Power, AKA the mosaic man of the East Village mosaic trail. Some of our students are on a lamppost that he mosaiced, I guess is the word, on St. Mark's Place and 3rd Avenue. And we were honored to have him make a custom one in our studio, above the stairwell at our school on E 7th and 1st Avenue. It is nearly complete, but there are a handful of spots left. If you would like to donate a hundred dollars or more and have a photo of a dog you love in the mosaic, visit schoolforthedogs.com/mosaic.
