28 JanEpisode 190 | Our Newest SFTD Certified Professional Trainer Ionelee Brogna on shock collars, horses, schnauzers, trick training, and learning empathy by selling used books
When Ionelee Brogna decided to bring a Miniature Schnauzer puppy into her NYC apartment a couple of years ago, she knew she didn't want to employ the punishment-based or "balanced" methods that her family had used on their dog back in rural Massachusetts. But she wasn't sure what other options there were. Her research led her to... this podcast! And then to classes at School For The Dogs, and then to our six-month-long Professional Course. Ionelee, who formerly worked in publishing and at New York's famous Strand Book Store, just finished apprenticing with us, and is now starting to see clients. She and Annie discuss her background training horses, the human insight one gains working in the service industry, the surprising lessons learned while teaching a dog tricks, and the struggle of living with a terrier who is training obsessed.
If you're interested in being notified when we start taking applications for our 2022 Professional Course (aka our "Apprenticeship") join the waiting list at http://schoolforthedogs.com/apprenticeship2022. We will be welcoming four students into our spring cohort. Not in NYC? No problem! The program is fully virtual.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Visit our Instagram Reels for quick dog training tips
Related Episodes:
A Selection of How-To Training Episodes from Season 1:
Episode 3 | A modern guide to house training your dog
Episode 10 | A modern dog owner’s guide to nipping
Episode 13 | Ask Annie: Curtailing jumping and helping scaredy dogs
Episode 19 | How to train a dog to “sit” from scratch
Episode 26 | Teach a foolproof DROP and COME using Classical Conditioning
Episode 50 | How to train your dog to walk on a loose leash
Transcript:
Annie:
I am joined today by Ionelee Brogna, one of the very most recent graduates of our Professional Course. When she is not training, she is often at the front desk at School For The Dogs and mans our inbox. Her official title is admin assistant and client coordinator.
Ionelee, though, something I've wanted to ask you since I've met you, and I've never asked you, is tell me about your name, ‘cause I've never met an Ionelee before.
Ionelee Brogna:
So it's a variation on my grandmother's name, which was Ione space Lee, and my parents smooshed that together so that my middle name could be my other grandmother's name, which is Carol.
Annie:
Oh, and is Ione a kind of, is that a name from somewhere?
Ionelee:
Yes, it's Scottish actually.
Annie:
Oh, okay.
Ionelee:
Which is ironic. Cause I'm mostly Italian and Mexican, but…
Annie:
[laughs] But your grandmother was Scottish.
Ionelee:
Yes.
Annie:
And her name was Ione.
Ionelee:
Yes.
Annie:
Well, it's very pretty. Although it's, I've noticed and I'm guessing you've noticed in your life, people refer to you sometimes as Lone-ly.
Ionelee:
Yes, I get Lonely a lot. I like to tell telemarketers that I'm not lonely. I do have friends. Which is why a lot of times I'll just sign my name fully in lower case.
Annie:
Well, anyway, it's a beautiful name. So, I wanted to have you on today to hear about your journey into the world of dog training. Because, as I know, and as other people on staff know, you started out with us as a client, then started working for us doing work at the front desk, and now have graduated our apprenticeship program. And we are obsessed with you and we're not ever gonna let you go! But how did you end up at our doorstep?
Ionelee:
So actually I found School For The Dogs through this podcast. With Parker's breeder, I put in a deposit so that I could join the waitlist to get a puppy. And I Parker is the first dog I've raised completely on my own. And so I was looking for resources for what dog training in New York City was like. Because, you know, I've raised dogs and horses in rural Massachusetts, but New York City is a completely different experience.
So when I was looking around, this was one of the few podcasts about dog training in an urban environment. And so months before I even got him, I started listening to the podcast just to kind of prepare myself, because being a young 20 something in a very small Queen's apartment, I was kind of like, I have to be prepared because this could go south very quickly.
And so this podcast was very helpful to introduce me to marker training. It helped me socialize him on the subway, and it helped me start his leash walking before I even started with private training and puppy kindergarten with School for the Dogs. I really did use the podcast to kind of understand how to set him up in the crate and be comfortable, and how to introduce him to the outside world. And it just helped me start without being completely lost.
Annie:
Wow. Well, I'm really flattered to hear that. Glad to hear that. Were there any episodes in particular that you remember, if someone's new the podcast, that maybe we can help point them to? It's all a blur to me [laughs].
Ionelee:
In season one you have a lot of how-tos, you know, how do dogs learn, and how does marker training work, and how to leash walk, and how to potty train. And so a lot of times with clients when they're like, Hey, you know, I wanna set up a lesson with a trainer, but I also kind of need help right now, I'll send them to the podcast. Or, now we have some amazing reels on Instagram for a lot of the basic stuff, too.
And so I'm like, there's nothing like getting that one-on-one experience you get from a trainer, but we also try to help people as much as we can with these other resources. And so they're always worth a listen or a look.
Annie:
I think that's really good advice. I mean, I think of so much of dog training, honestly, as similar to working with a personal trainer. Like, there's so much about exercising that you can learn on your own, and plenty of people go far. But it can also be helpful to have a person to work with to give you some structure that you might not be imposing on yourself, or to give you techniques or ideas that you wouldn't know about, and to keep you accountable.
So, if this podcast has helped people in that way, yeah. I'm always trying to point people towards our free and low cost resources, because in order to run a business in New York City, we have to charge a pretty penny, but that doesn't mean that we're still not able, I hope, to help people who are paying less, or in the case of the podcast, nothing! Nothing at all.
So you're from rural Massachusetts. How did you end up in New York City?
Ionelee:
I moved to New York City to work in book publishing. I moved in 2018 to attend the Columbia publishing course. I had some internships with literary agencies, and then I was working at an agency for a while. So that's how I ended up in New York.
Annie:
And did you dream of becoming an agent?
Ionelee:
I did. I did.
Annie:
My mother's an agent. That's why I'm particularly interested in this. Well, she's an agent for illustrators, but similar world.
Ionelee:
Oh, that's really cool, actually. I'm particularly passionate about children's literature. But yeah, I was fired from my agency job due to communication issues during the pandemic. And I like to joke that it was actually a blessing because that was a boss who believed in positive punishment for her employees. So it wasn't necessarily the best job for me at the end of the day.
Annie:
She was not a good dog trainer?
Ionelee:
No, she was not a good dog trainer.
Annie:
[laughs] Isn't it interesting to think of all of your past jobs, knowing what you now work with every day about classical conditioning and operating conditioning?
Ionelee:
It is, it is interesting, because a job is so much a working and learning environment where you're trying to put your best foot forward and accomplish a lot of goals, but you're also working within a team, and there's always a learning curve to every job. And so all of the learning theory that we talk about in the apprenticeship and, you know, we try to apply in dog training very much also impacts human interaction.
Humans are animals that behave and learn in very similar ways to dogs. And so it's, it's rather enlightening to look back at some of my previous experiences through that lens. And that's part of why I enjoy working at School For The Dogs so much. It's such a compassionate environment where there's always room for learning and growth. And instead of focusing on what went wrong, we tried to focus on what to do next time.
Annie:
Yeah. I very much feel like, as a business, we always want to be working towards figuring out how behaviors can be positively reinforced as much as possible in order to encourage people to feel good about being part of this thing.
I think I mentioned this once before on the podcast, but one time, before Jason and I got married at the temple, we sat down with the rabbi. And we were just talking about ourselves and about, you know, what we're passionate about in life. And I was trying to explain how passionate I am about figuring out how to use positive reinforcement as much as possible, and just in life with dogs and whatever. And that I sometimes get frustrated when I feel like others don't understand that.
I forget exactly what I was saying. But he said something like, “But of course, as an employer, you have to use coercion.” And I thought like, of course I try not to use coercion! I mean, and he was like, well, you know, the very active paying someone is coercive. And it just reminded me of how much we misunderstand the terms, I guess, is part of it. But understanding the terms helps you understand the concept.
I mean, I guess withholding someone's pay would be truly coercive, and perhaps in a society where we're all so dependent on our paychecks especially, but anyway, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah! [laughs]
You went on also to work at The Strand, is that right?
Ionelee:
Yeah. So The Strand is another of the jobs I had out of the Columbia publishing course when I was applying for all of the fancy publishing industry jobs. I still needed to pay to exist in New York City. So I was applying to a bunch of bookstores as well, and I ended up working at The Strand for over a year. And The Strand’s a really interesting environment to work in, because, it's one of the only retail places I've ever worked where –-
Annie:
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but to anyone listening who's not in New York, can you explain what The Strand is?
Ionelee:
Oh yeah, absolutely. The Strand is a now landmarked book store in Manhattan, which is known for selling used books and having a rare book collection. It's been a New York City staple of the book scene for decades now. It's still a family business, even though it has definitely evolved as the city has. There's contention over whether The Strand is still a bookstore or now a tote bag store, especially among the employees.
But it's a really unique place to work. And I learned a lot working there and working among people who've been in New York all their lives and people fresh to the city, it really brought great perspective. And it really, working retail for full-time 40 hours a week in a chaotic environment that's a tourist spot and a landmark definitely upped my customer service skills and taught me to think on my feet. So I am grateful for that job in many ways.
Annie:
And you're very good at that. I have to say. It's not an easy thing. And honestly, you know, I didn't really work in any kind of service business. I mean, I guess a little bit. I worked at a cafe when I was a teenager, but it wasn't really until we opened School For The Dogs that I realized kind of what it truly meant to work in the service business and to be dealing with such a volume, like so many people. Like, have you found that dealing with so many people, you sort of start to see just types differently?
Ionelee:
Yeah, the thing I always joke about is you can always tell who has worked in the service industry before and who has not, when you are working a service job, especially. And I almost feel like in some ways everyone should work a service job at one point in their life.
Annie:
A hundred percent.
Ionelee:
It really, really opens your eyes to the world around you and all of the people you connect with every day, either intentionally or unintentionally.
Annie:
I think it gives you empathy, too.
Ionelee:
Yeah, it really does. So, it really shows you that, you know, there's the concept of please and thank you, but then there's the people who actually use it because they understand what they're asking of you. And so more than knowing types of people and encountering types of people in the full volume, you really see which people understand what life looks like from your end as someone in the service industry, and which people don't care.
Annie:
Yeah. Huh. That's interesting. I feel like what's comforted me is it's helped me see that people kind of bring themselves wherever they go, and that the person who – well, as you know, working the front desk, our clients are awesome. I think we have a really self-selecting group of wonderful people who come to School For The Dogs, shop with us online, all of it like. I am wowed by the people who make up our customers and client base, but like, there's some percentage of people who are difficult, let's say. I think it's probably a smaller percentage though, than at somewhere like The Strand.
But I tell myself, those people are probably going into every shop or like having some sort of issue or every single place they go into. You know what I mean?
Ionelee:
Yes, yes I do. And that's exactly what I mean by types of – you can tell who is there just for them and who is there as a part of the bigger picture. And working at School For The Dogs, I do think that the people interested in the training that we do at School For The Dogs in some way is a self-selecting group of some of the most fantastic people in New York City.
Annie:
Yeah. I mean, you have to be interested in it. You have to then kind of – I think there's some people who seek it out, and that is definitely a special person who is – and was not the person I was, by the way, but it sounds like the person you were when you got Parker. I was not like, I need to train my dog and I need to find the best way to train my dog. And I mean, this was, you know, 16 plus years ago, I guess. And so it was a different world in a lot of ways.
But I was just like dog training is something one and done. I'm gonna go to the class at the local daycare. And then he will be trained, and that's it. I think I found natural ways to interact with my dog that made sense to me that I enjoyed, that he enjoyed, and some of that certainly involved training. And I never used aversives really with him. But I think that there are people who seek us out and then there's people who just kind of come in and they get it. And that's really cool to see
Ionelee:
I actually have a background of using aversives with my parents' dog which is part of why it was so important to me to work with School For The Dogs and do positive reinforcement training. Because the thing about aversives is it's just so hard to use them right. And, you know, theoretically there's a right way to use them, but the amount of human error that will just exist no matter how hard you're trying really poisons any proper use of aversives in a way that just made me really sick to my stomach.
Annie:
Tell me about it. How did you, what kind of training did you do with your dog? Was it your childhood dog?
Ionelee:
Right after I graduated college, I was living with my parents and our childhood dog had passed away a couple years previous.
Annie:
Had you done training with that dog growing up?
Ionelee:
I had, but most of my training pre my parents’ dog, George, and pre Parker was actually horse training. I rode horses for 15 years and competed at a regional level, and it was mostly young horses. So it was a lot of training and teaching them how riding works. So which is another interesting story on what makes me the dog trainer I am today.
But my parents’ dog, George, we got in 2017 right after I'd graduated college. And I was still living in Massachusetts with my parents at the time. And we'd the previous dog we'd had was a lab. And he had a full life and passed from old age. So in some ways, you know, we'd gotten that dog when I was five, and I had been involved in his training, but you know, not deeply involved.
And now, I was an adult. I graduated college and here was this terrier puppy. And going from a yellow lab to an unknown terrier mix was definitely a wild ride. So we realized we needed help and we contacted one of the trainers in our town who was a balanced trainer. My mom grew up kind of more of the old Cesar Millan-esque dog training school of thought. That's just what she grew up with. And so, to her, balanced training made sense.
Balanced training is theoretically an even mix of positive reinforcement training and positive punishment training with aversives like an E collar, an electric shock collar, and a prong collar, and an electric fence. I used all three of them on my parents' dog, George. And the prong color is hard because theoretically, what you're doing is you're walking with a loose leash and only the dog engages a prong color when they pull.
But practically, if you're walking through a crowded place and you're holding the leash tight to try to keep your dog near you, and they're wearing a prong collar, there's just nothing good about that picture. You're not training your dog, you're trying to help your dog by keeping them close to you and keeping them safe. But it's just, it sucks for you and the dog.
And then the E collar, we first used for recall. And in some ways it made sense in that very specific instance to, you know, when you feel this sensation run back to me, you know, when it's that specific –
Annie:
The sensation being the –
Ionelee:
Being the shock. And the shock, it was interesting. The shock to George was actually less aversive than the vibration, which most people think is preferable.
Annie:
I've heard that I've heard that before. I don't know if that's for some dogs, one is worse than the other, and you may not know until you try it.
Ionelee:
And I'm the sort of crazy person who always tested the shock on my wrist before putting it on my dog, you know, like the sensitive, inner part. Because you're putting it on their neck, which is also a very sensitive area. And so I always knew it wasn't at a level where I was causing him serious harm. Cause I physically tested it on myself first before putting it on him every single time.
Annie:
Well sure, although you don't know what his nerves feel like, but, sure.
Ionelee:
Yeah. But like, but at the same time, it's so easy to say, I'm only going to use this for recall, and then use it in situations that aren't necessarily a pure recall. And it was at the point where the trainer was trying to get at me to use the E collar to shock him into staying in the crate where I was just like, I'm out. There's nothing about this that is okay. Because that was the antithesis of what crate training should be. You shouldn't scare your dog into staying in a crate. It should be a safe space where they want to be, because they're cozy in there.
Annie:
Mm-hmm.
Ionelee:
So that was where I was just like, None of this, I'm done.
Annie:
Now doing horse training, had you been introduced to anything like clicker training?
Ionelee:
No, not necessarily, but a lot of it looking back at horse training kind of did feel like marker training. Mostly cause I always had treats in my pocket. I used the puffy pepper peppermints cuz that's what my horse liked. And they stayed in their little plastic wrappers and they were in the pockets of everything. Number of peppermints I put through the wash in my life is kind of insane. And I'm sure most horse people and dog trainers will understand that. You just have food on you always, somehow.
But so it's a, like in some ways I was using positive reinforcement training. Instances I can think of specifically are, we always, when mounting the horse, we'd take the horse and line it up at the mounting block and then we'd ask the horse to stand still. And as soon as we were on, we'd give the peppermint. And so as long as it was a nice smooth motion and everyone's safe and comfortable, you know, there's the peppermint.
And we'd use carrots for stretches. My horse had a lot of back problems and so I had to do a lot of stretches with him to get him, to try to stretch his neck and his sides. And so I'd always get him, you know, just like leaning a little bit further to get the end of the carrot.
Also, this is something funny that I've never heard someone else do, but I trained him to eat his apples in bites because I knew he knew the difference between my fingers and the food. And I didn't like being slobbered on. So I'd tell him to eat, to chew his apple in bites so it wouldn't be too much in his mouth and get slobbery everywhere.
Annie:
Aw, that's really sweet.
Ionelee:
And you know, it was like, you don't chew on my finger and I'll twist the apple so that you can get your teeth through and you get your nibble and then you finish chewing and you get the next bite. And so in a lot of ways, when you break all of these actions down, there's a lot of in some ways almost unintentional mark and reward. It's not as precise as what I've been doing with Parker and the other dogs at School For The Dogs, but it's still very much there.
And the interesting thing about horseback riding is there's so much reinforcement that you give unintentionally through your body language because when you're on the horse, the horse can feel every muscle on your body. They can feel when you tense, they can feel when you relax. And a lot of times, you know, when your horse does something right, through your whole body you have an almost unintentional reaction of, Oh my God, we just did the thing! And they can feel that through all of your muscles. So it's almost a praise, an unintentional like praise reinforcement.
Annie:
Right. Or the, well, it's the conditioned reinforcer probably, you know, that your body pressure has become a learned reinforcer to them.
So what, what happened with your parents' dog and were your parents on the same page?
Ionelee:
So, I mean, he's a great dog. He's currently four years old, so he's fairly young still. And they still use the E collar on him. They stopped using the prong and switched to a martingale, thankfully. They really only use the E collar for recall and forget to charge it most of the time. And he's on an electric fence that they forget to put the collar for him on. So it's a thing where like, and I've tried talking to them about it, but it's hard with family, especially when I was part of setting up that situation. Cause I didn't know differently at that time.
Annie:
So you got Parker, Parker is a miniature schnauzer, is that right?
Ionelee:
Yes. Parker is a purebred, miniature Schnauzer
Annie:
And he’s just the cutest, the cutest guy.
Ionelee:
Thank you.
Annie:
How did you decide on a mini Schnauzer?
Ionelee:
So we'd switched to terriers from labs because my mom has dog allergies. And so we wanted to look for some of the less allergenic breeds, and a lot of the poodles and the terriers you either strip or give haircuts and they don't shed the same way and they don't necessarily create dander the same way. And so my mom doesn't react to them.
And so it was a priority to me to pick a dog that could be snuggled by every member of the family and could be enjoyed by every member of the family without needing to worry about triggering her allergies, which is a large part of why I didn't look into rescues is because I knew that allergies were a big part of the picture.
So I did a lot of research on breeders, and I went to see his breeder and I met his parents. And I learned a lot about how she raises all of her puppies to make sure that I was really, you know, if you're going to be paying top dollar for a puppy, it's really best to do your research so that they're coming from an ethical place.
Annie:
Totally. Any quick tips for anyone?
Ionelee:
In terms of quick tips, I'd say if you can, go to the breeder, see where the puppies and the parents are kept and meet the breeding parents. That's really the best way to make sure that it's a good home that your puppy is coming from with the best start to life. And the second thing I'd say is ask your breeder questions about how they're raising and socializing their puppies from day one.
Because I'm very thankful that my breeder did a lot of sound desensitization, you know, she'd play city noises and firework noises just while the puppies were sleeping and eating. And she did a lot of handling, a lot of bathing and grooming to really just set them up for success.
So I'd say the two things are meet the parents, and then ask the breeder really detailed questions about what the puppies' first few weeks of life look like.
Annie:
Absolutely. Good ones. Good tips. I'll add, read the book, The Dog Merchants. I think that book should be read by anyone, certainly anyone considering getting any kind of dog, but also people who already have dogs, ‘cause it's just pretty fascinating about all the different places dogs come from in our modern world.
So you started out with us as a client. Can you tell me about some of your early classes or, you know, how you trained with us?
Ionelee:
Yeah, so Parker and I kind of zigzagged through classes. I couldn't afford a lot of private training, but our first interaction at School for the Dogs was a private with Erin, who is still one of the best and most awesome puppy trainers. And I've been very grateful to learn from her during the apprenticeship as well.
Annie:
Also a client, turned apprentice, turned staff person.
Ionelee:
Yes. That is also true.
Annie:
You're two fabulous people who took that path. As is Anna. Who's another one of my favorite people in the world. So I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
Ionelee:
No, it's fine. So Erin taught us about Touch, which I don't know how I'd come into School For The Dogs listening to so much to the podcast and not knowing what Touch was, but I think I just thought it wasn't important. And now it's one of the most useful things I could ever think of, because you can use Touch for so many different applications.
And so we went from that to Puppy Kindergarten, which is awesome and I try to talk every puppy client into taking, because it's such a great mix of puppy topics like potty training and crate training and socialization. And there's also the bit of play time with the other puppies in class. And then you're starting with all the basics, like Sit and Lie Down and Recall and leash walking at the end.
So I really am glad that we got that solid foundation. And then we took Tricks 1 after that which was also with Anna, and so Parker and I were really happy to start taking Tricks because he needed a little bit more mental activity. He's a very smart schnauzer as most of them are. And I always try to talk people into Tricks training, cause it's one of the best ways to really build communication with your dog and understand how capturing and shaping and marker training all work. So we learned our high fives and our waves and our spins.
Annie:
It's also a good studio apartment activity, right?
Ionelee:
It is, it is. There's so many benefits from tricks training and it's funny how many clients are like, oh, well that's just extra. And I'm like, but it actually impacts your basics, because the skills and the precision you need to build tricks helps you build much cleaner basic behaviors as well.
Annie:
Well, and your dog doesn't know that rollover is silly and sitting is important.
Ionelee:
Exactly. To them, it's all the same thing. And it's always fun to watch how much clients enjoy teaching their dog to give a high five, because in some ways the pressure's off for them. And it's just about the learning activity. And then once you build the communication with behaviors that don't have that weight for the human, you can go back to the obedience and it comes so much faster.
Annie:
That's a really great point. It's like playing basketball or something in order to build your, I don't know, running capabilities.
Ionelee:
Exactly. Like there's so much you learn that isn't necessarily direct learning or intentional learning, but it all connects in a way where – there's so many clients where I'm like, I know this sounds silly, but please take Tricks 1.
Annie:
Mm-hmm, yeah. So, what got you from there to the professional course?
Ionelee:
I mean, animals have always been something that I've had a really strong affinity for growing up. My mom always used to call me Snow White because every time we’d visit friends or family, I'd always be in the corner with whatever pet was there. I was always that person.
And growing up, I joke that animals are comfortable around me, ‘cause growing up, I just spent more time engaging with them than with humans. And so my natural body language is really loud from all the days that I spent just sitting with my horse instead of sitting with people, you know, cause animals don't have words. So it's like every movement of your hands, every tightening of your shoulders, it means so much to them.
So I've always, especially with anxious animals and animals with a stranger danger, I've always been the human where they're like uncommonly fast, just like, Oh you're fine, because my body language is so loud for them that they can understand where they stand with me and what my intentions are way quicker than the average human.
Annie:
Huh. Interesting. I've never heard somebody talk about how they innately have, you know, body language that's good for communicating with animals as a whole. That's an interesting observation about yourself. [laughs]
So does that mean that being an animal trainer was something you'd always thought might be fun, be it a horse trainer or, I don't know. Did you dream of swimming with dolphins?
Ionelee:
Yeah, horse training was something I thought about a lot as a kid, but I never really got any upper level experience because all of my experience was with very, very young horses or, you know, cranky school ponies. And so I don't necessarily have the upper level skills that most people would want of a horse trainer, but I've always loved working with animals. Always been hands on, trying to make them comfortable, trying to help them learn.
And so, when I found myself unemployed during the pandemic, and I don't like not working as I think we've discovered most people don't. So I really thought that it was an opportunity to learn. And so when I saw that the apprenticeship was open for students, I was like, well, I'm not doing anything right now. So I might as well actually follow what – you know, I had two childhood loves, animals and books. And I'd tried book publishing and it hadn't quite worked out. And then the apprenticeship course was right there and I was like, it almost feels silly not to.
And I knew School For The Dogs. I knew the trainers. I knew that I was on board with what you guys teach, and I'd done four group classes and the good dog training course. So at that point it was just like, well, I know what I'm gonna be learning, but I also know this is gonna be a really great mentorship opportunity with some really awesome humans.
Annie:
So was it?
Ionelee:
Yes, absolutely. Gosh, I kind of miss office hours. It's been a few weeks since office hours and I just, I miss the conversations, I miss the learning. I miss like – just everyone who works at School For The Dogs is a phenomenal human being. Which is still amazing to me. But, you know, I miss digging into the nitty gritty and the what ifs.
Annie:
So, how would you describe the program to someone who might be interested in becoming a dog trainer?
Ionelee:
The program is a really interesting deep dive into animal behavior. And it covers a lot of bases from emotions to body language, to kind of the psychology of a lot of difficult conditions like separation anxiety and dog reactivity. And then puppy basics and setting dogs up for success. And so you cover so much material in a way where you really get to dig into it.
One of my favorite things about the course was, in the written homeworks and the readings, it wasn't just about learning for learning's sake. It was about understanding why. Why do dogs work this way? Why do humans interact with dogs this way? How does the dog exist in the home? And when you have a group of people who are really interested in teaching you not only the facts of animal behavior, but why it is that way and what that means, it's more lifetime learning than textbook learning, and some of the most valuable learning I've ever done.
Annie:
Wow. Well, that's a ringing endorsement. [laughs] Can you explain a little bit what the breakdown was of the course? And we should explain, too, that you did it with three others. But two of those people were not in New York City, ‘cause this was the first time that we attempted to do it fully virtually for some people. But yeah, could you explain just sort of the breakdown of what it contained? Or how to explain it to someone?
Ionelee:
Yeah, so the course is a mix of the textbook learning element and then watching videos.
Annie:
Videos being like pre-recorded lectures, right?
Ionelee:
Yeah. Pre-recorded lectures and then sometimes clips of trainers at School For The Dogs training. And then there's also a hands-on element of you working with either your dog or a dog you have regular access to and trying to apply a lot of what you're learning.
And in a lot of those videos, the apprenticeship mentor would give really detailed feedback about your marker training and your clicker mechanics and your timing and your training choices and the way you're shaping and capturing and building behaviors. So there's also that really great feedback on what you're physically doing with a dog to try to help them learn.
And then we also had observation where we were watching other School For The Dogs trainers working with clients. And a lot of it was the first sessions, you know, a trainer meeting with client for the first time, and trying to understand what's going on with the client and the dog they've never met before and gather all of the information together, and give feedback and teach skills that are immediately useful.
And so the combination of, you know, textbook learning and feedback on your hands-on work with a dog and watching other experienced trainers work with dogs, all kind of mixes together into this really well rounded learning environment.
Annie:
How did you feel about the shadowing? I'm curious, did you do some of it in person and some of it virtually?
Ionelee:
I did some of it in person and some of it virtually. Everything that I could see at the school I did in person, but stuff that, where I was observing a trainer working in a client's home, I did virtually.
Annie:
And was some of it live and some of it pre-recorded?
Ionelee:
I think all of my observation was live.
Annie:
Well, my current idea is if we could get a handful of pre-recorded sessions, then everybody could watch the same pre-recorded session and then everybody could meet with a trainer afterwards for an hour to discuss it.
Ionelee:
That would be really cool. And I'd say some of the most interesting discussions were where I was viewing in person, other apprentices were viewing through zoom. And so we'd bounce questions off each other. It's always really cool to have an apprentice ask a question you hadn't thought of because in some ways someone else's view of the same session can really educate you in a way.
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Well, as we have put together the program over the last few years, it definitely felt like that was an important thing to include because, you know, I, having done the Karen Pryor Academy, which was a great experience to me and completely opened up my eyes to this amazing world and profession, et cetera. I, however, left that program feeling like I had never seen anybody really teach anything in a way that made sense to me. Not that I was observing trainers doing anything I wouldn’t do. I just didn't really have a chance to observe trainers at all. And I didn't, I didn't know where to start.
And I think Kate too, whose path was different than mine, but I think both of us when we started training felt like we were coming at it with absolutely no script, and we're like having to reinvent the wheel. So I think any opportunity we can give aspiring trainers to just watch other trainers doing an amazing job must sort of help you develop your own script, your own database, et cetera, et cetera.
And what would you say was the most challenging part?
Ionelee:
The most challenging part was some of the hands-on work with my dog. Because we'd done tricks one and then tricks two, twice, the whole sequencing of a bunch of different behaviors was a breeze. You know, he could do a sequence of 10 completely different behaviors with only one treat at the end in a blink.
But when it came to the differentiation of, you know, we were doing nose/paw with a cone, and all I could do was stand in a stationary position and say Nose or Paw, he would have to give the correct response immediately. And it makes sense because I understand that Em wanted us to do that because it really shows you how to build a behavior almost past fluency to, like, perfect. And I know that we do that because in cases with service dogs, you do need behavior at a far more fitly and high level of fluency than you would with the average pet dog.
But Parker and I got so frustrated with that exercise to the point where we actually had to take like a two week raining break after that, where he was just like, don't take a cone out, don't try to train me with my breakfast like you usually do. I'm done. I will skip breakfast.
Annie:
Awww. He went on a food strike.
Ionelee:
Yeah. And that's something I've always done with him that I find is really helpful. I set aside, okay, breakfast, we do training. And for half of his kibbles, we're just gonna train. And it's just a really short burst of structured set aside time for us to review or start something new each day.
Annie:
Well, that's interesting though. I mean, there's people who talk about pure positive training, which, I would say there's no such thing. For lots of different reasons, there's no such thing. But there's a situation where even the best positive reinforcement training intentions became aversive, huh? Stressful.
Ionelee:
Yeah. It was stressful, because like he could tell it was important to me and he could tell I was getting frustrated and I could tell he was getting frustrated. And so, he's a very interesting learner and it's something Em pointed out. Where very, very few dogs – like, he likes training and he likes learning and he likes working and shaping so much that he has a hard time disengaging from learning, even when he's done and he is not performing at his best, he's still like, but I'm doing the thing! This is our thing. This is the thing we do together and I'm not stopping.
Annie:
Aww. My dog Amos was a little bit like that. Terriers are the best.
Ionelee:
They are. They're really fun and really interesting and really amazing learners. And if you want a dog who just always wants to learn with you, they're a really great way to go. But, and that's something I always have to be mindful of and balance with him. Cause he will start doing displacement activities like scratching and yawning while training and he's still engaged and he still wants me to keep training with him, but he's getting frustrated and he's doing these displacement activities. So I have to call it for him, so that he doesn't start making it aversive for himself by just still trying.
And that's something humans do, honestly, you know. We will push our past where we're already burnt out and make things that we, even things that we enjoy aversive.
Annie:
That's so true. Yeah. I wonder, is there a word for that in dog training? I don't even know.
Ionelee:
I don't know, but it's definitely something I have to be careful with, with him. Because even the best intentions, and the best positive reinforcement, sometimes you're just tired.
Annie:
Yeah. Just overdo it. Yeah. Even if it's something you love doing.
Well, I'm excited to have you training with School For The Dogs, and specifically excited to have you do some training with Poppy. [laughs]
Ionelee:
She is such an interesting girl.
Annie:
She really is. I think you're gonna just fall in love with her. She is very, very sweet and very smart, but also a scaredy cat, a scaredy dog, for sure. And very sensitive to, oh my God. I mean, I can't imagine what would've happened if she had ended up in the home of someone who smacked her around. Because, you know, even punishment, I think, doled out to her in the softest quietest way would stress her out.
Ionelee:
I'm excited to work with her because just working with her that one day in Day School, I could see how much just increasing her known behaviors and increasing her confidence in behaviors would pull back the anxiety and help her be her gregarious, snuggly self.
Annie:
Yes. Yes, she, exactly. And I wanna give that to her. So I'm very excited to start. All right. So I think we covered a lot of great stuff here. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to mention?
Ionelee:
Just as a front desk staff member, I wanna give a shout out to the other front desk staff members, because being the frontline at a dog school is hard. It's hard work, because you're dealing with a lot of clients who sometimes call in crying, ‘cause they just don't know how to help their dog anymore.
And I have amazing team members, and I just wanna let everyone know that the School for the Dogs staff is amazing and very educated and always happy to talk through email on the phone to help everyone we can. And I wanna give a shout out to Dana and Jade because they do an amazing job.
Annie:
Oh my God, they're so wonderful, as, really, as are you. I mean, I think, across the board, I think I feel, I don't know. Just, I know Kate too, we both just feel stupidly lucky at how wonderful our staff is. [laughs] Alright I have two last questions. One is if you could suggest one thing to someone who is listening, who is maybe thinking about becoming a dog trainer.
And just as an aside, what's funny is I always think that like there must be a lot of people who rode horses as kids who now live in urban environments and would love to have a horse and instead they get a dog, and those are the people who, I bet a lot of those people would be really amazing dog trainers. Because a dog is kind of like a small horse that you can have in your home, right. Although there's less mucking of the stables that has to happen.
Ionelee:
Yeah. I mean, you're still handling dog poop in bags. But yeah. Horse people are always amazing animal people, and I would love to still be working horses, but I live in alphabet city and I cannot fit a horse in my two bedroom apartment.
Annie:
[laughs] If only. If someone's listening to this and is interested in possibly pursuing a career as a dog trainer, I was wondering if you have one tip. I mean, it could be a book or just a general suggestion, or…what would you suggest to somebody who's just starting to think about, Hey, maybe I'd like to be a dog trainer?
Ionelee:
Try doing something with your dog or with a dog in your life that you've never tried before. Really step outside the box of what you have taught and what you have learned. Try a new sport. Try a new trick, and really see how you like engaging with that. And see if you can get other people involved, and see if you can try to extend what you're learning to someone else. Just to get some hands on, like, do I want to keep educating myself about dogs? Do I want to educate other people about dogs?
I know with my parents’ dog, George, my dad and I built an entire agility course in the backyard from scratch, because that was one of the things that made this dog light up. And I think that that's some of the most interesting training I've ever done, teaching my parents how to give agility guides and maneuver their dog through a course, and teaching a dog that a seesaw is fun. That dog now does the Teeter in the backyard unprompted because he wants to. [laughs] Which is always just precious.
But yeah, so really just step out of the box, try something challenging and new that you've never tried before, and try communicating that new thing to someone else. And I think that will tell you a lot about, is continued dog learning and is teaching other people about dogs something that really matters to you.
[theme music]
Annie:
If you are in New York City, you can meet Ionelee. She is often at our front desk. Also, for the month of February, we are offering free virtual consults. They will be with Ionelee and a couple of our other recent professional course graduates. If you have questions about dog trainings or about our professional course, you can sign up for one of these schoolforthedogs.com. If you would like to be notified as soon as we begin accepting applications, sign up at schoolforthedogs.com/apprenticeship2022
