29 AprEpisode 203 | Live From New York, It’s… Positive Reinforcement Dog Training! Saturday Night Live set designer Ken MacLeod on becoming a professional dog trainer
In his work as a set designer, Saturday Night Life staffer Ken MacLeod had seen many well-trained dogs, and had even done commercial work with his own Jack Russell, Mac. But then he got a dog named Scooter and he realized that every dog has different needs. This realization led him to decide he wanted to become a certified dog trainer. Today, he splits his time: Part of every month, he can be found building sets for SNL, and the rest of the time, he is training out of his Hoboken, NJ-based studio, My Positive Pup. He talks to Annie about getting certified, the emotional nature of working with dog owners, behavior lessons learned learned on the ski slopes, and how the old saying "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" can be true for both people and dogs.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Learn more about My Positive Pup
Learn more about L.E.G.S.® Applied Ethology Family Dog Mediation® Professional Course (thinkific.com)
Learn more about the Karen Pryor Academy
Transcript:
Annie:
Okay. Ken, why don't you just go ahead and introduce yourself and your business and we can, we can go from there.
Ken MacLeod:
Cool. My name is Ken MacLeod. I have a dog training company in Hoboken, New Jersey called My Positive Pup. You can find us on the web at mypositivepup.com. I am a positive reinforcement dog trainer, obviously with that name. And I also work in the film industry at Saturday Night Live. And, to say the least, both of them are pretty crazy businesses.
Annie:
So let's talk about your, what would you say, bifurcated career, which came first? Well, and actually also, are you originally from New Jersey? Where are you from originally?
Ken:
I'm originally from Massachusetts. I moved down to New Jersey when I was a sophomore in high school, became a huge Springsteen fan who couldn't. And then went to college to Penn State and came out and wanted to go into the film industry. I really didn't have a lot of interest in dogs until I met my wife, I guess, 14 years ago. And she had a dog named Mac who is a Parsons Jack Russell who I completely fell in love with. And everything kind of started from there. I had trained Mac to be in a couple commercials, ‘cause I worked in the commercial industry. And it all kind of, you know, snowballed from that.
Annie:
You were training him for commercials. Were you doing it with any guidance or just by feeling?
Ken:
Like, just like he'd have little parts in a commercial, like, pick a newspaper up and run to the door. Go to the couch and bark at somebody. And it wasn't like I was doing this for work. It's just that Mac was really, really good at it. And at that time Parsons Jack Russells were very, very popular. So in being in the film industry and around people, both my wife and I, we just knew producers and said, Hey, would Mac want to be in it? Would Mac, you know, would it be okay if you had Mac in this and it'd be like, sure, no problem at all. So it kind of started that way accidentally, I guess.
But even at that time, it wasn't like looking at myself as a dog trainer. It wasn't until Mac had passed, and then we got Scooter, my oldest dog right now, who is my special needs child.
Annie:
[laughs] But I'm curious, going back to Mac, how did you even have any idea how to teach a dog to go to the couch and bark?
Ken:
I didn't. I kinda looked at videos at the time. I kinda read a little bit about it. Mac was really, really intuitive on knowing what you wanted, and it really was easy. Maybe it was what I was doing. I don't know at the time, to be honest with you, but a lot of the time it was, you know, putting peanut butter on the couch. Standing behind the couch on the other side. You know, moving my hands up and down, cause we taught him to bark with the opening and closing of my hand. So that was like one of the things that we did.
But it did take a lot of peanut butter, like picking up the newspaper, that type of thing. And that's how it kind of started, it was strictly accidental. And honestly, at that time, I didn't know anything about positive reinforcement at all. Not that I was ever negative reinforcement or anything like that. It it just–
Annie:
Just, none of it had even occurred to you. I mean, I think I was sort of in a similar, yeah, I think I was in a similar camp when I first let's say discovered positive reinforcement dog training where I never thought that there were different ways to train a dog. I just thought dog training was just kind of this one thing.
Ken:
Right. And I also think the thing, what happened was with Mac because he was such a great dog. And I always told my clients this, that, you know, if Mac wanted to go skydiving with me or if we both decided we wanted to go skydiving, I think Mac would happily jump out of the plane with me. My dog Scooter right now wouldn't probably even get into the cab to go to the airport.
Annie:
Mm-hmm.
Ken:
And what had happened was when we got Scooter, I realized at that point, like while dogs are really different, I had no idea. I just thought I was gonna get another Mac. And Scooter was very, very reactive, very afraid of a lot of things, and it just broke my heart so much that I just said, you know, I can't let this poor guy live like this. And that's when wanting to become a dog trainer, wanting to become a certified dog trainer was really, really important. And it's when II went into Karen Pryor.
Annie:
How did you make your way to Karen Pryor Academy?
Ken:
You know, I researched a bunch of different places. And one of the things that I liked about Karen Pryor Academy was the fact that you actually had to prove yourself in front of people. it wasn't just an online course. We had four or five, forget exactly what it was, very long weekends that we had to go to in addition to learning online. And once again, Scooter was the challenge dog of the class.
Annie:
Now were you working with Steve Benjamin?
Ken:
Yes.
Annie:
Yeah. Me too.
Ken:
Love Steve.
Annie:
Yeah. I'm a graduate also.
Ken:
Love Steve. Matter of fact, I think Steve couldn't stand me at the beginning. Just because I was also just a difficult student. I questioned everything. Just questioned everything, questioned everything, questioned everything. And Scooter, like I said, was a handful in class. You know, because he was fearful, he was around seven or eight other dogs. So it was stressful for myself and for Scooter. But there was one weekend, I think it was the third weekend where it just all kind of connected for me and for Scooter and for Steve. And at that point on, I was just like blown away, you know, it just like it was all coming into place.
Annie:
What made everything come together?
Ken:
You know, once again it's attitude. And I think, for me, it took some convincing. And I think it's the same way with when my clients come to me now. Because we all kind of come to dog training, either as like a client comes to me, or when I was a client of Karen Pryor, that you need something that just makes it happen. And I remember we had to go up in front of the class and do a few things, and Scooter killed it and he nailed it. And the reason why he nailed it was because we practiced and practiced and practiced. And it just made sense.
And I think what happens to clients of mine is when they come back for their second or third session, or sometimes even in their first, it's a light bulb that goes off and goes, Oh, I get it. Everything that I had been thinking of ahead of time or what I thought wasn't right. It was just a different way of thinking of things.
And one of the big things for me as a trainer that I do at my place is to get people to think differently about training. What I think that I know is we tend to humanize our dogs too much. In the fact that like, well, what's the problem? I get it. Why don't they get it? Like, what's the problem, I don't even see what the problem that they're struggling with, what what's the issue? And it's like, they're dogs. There is an issue. There's a huge issue. And you need to come to figure out and come to terms that they're having this issue and what you can do to actually help them cope better.
And that's a lot of like what I teach. You know, I teach for people to understand, you know, being safe and, and having their resource, whatever it may be, food or treats or a squeaky ball or whatever. Those two things are so vital for the dog to survive, and how to get people to grasp that. Because like I said, I think just people come from the mindset of, well, why can't they just do it? What's the problem? And I think that's a shame. It's not really what it's about.
Annie:
I think, I think –
Ken:
Does that make sense?
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah. Although it's funny, because I feel like I think more in terms of how can I get people rather than seeing the dog as like a furry human, who, why can't the furry human understand what I want? Why doesn't their brain work exactly as mine does?
Ken:
Right.
Annie:
And more in terms of thinking about what they know about behavior as a human, as being a human animal, and thinking about the way behavior works, the way we can understand it as humans and how that might apply to the dogs.
Ken:
Right. I do a lot of analogies with people and having them understand one of the big things I'm sure you get also is like, how long do I have to use treats for?
Annie:
Mm-hmm.
Ken:
And I tell my clients all the time, you should go to work on Monday and you should tell your employer or your clients that you never want to be paid ever again.
Annie:
[laughing]
Ken:
Right. And they go, Oh, got it.
Annie:
I'm interested in how you, it sounds like you went from having a dog that had some issues to, ‘I wanna be a certified dog trainer.’ There was no working with a trainer before that? Or no model for, you know, what kind of dog trainer you felt like you wanted to be?
Ken:
No, because what happened was, I think when I came through Karen Pryor, as with everything in my life, I just go head over heels into it. And I was, it was during Covid. And my phone was ringing off the hook. And I took on, you know, dogs that I felt as though I could take on, I don't take on dogs with separation anxiety.
Annie:
Wait, I'm sorry. When you started Karen Pryor, your phone was ringing off the hook?
Ken:
No, no, no. After I got outta Karen Pryor.
Annie:
Oh, but I mean, but on your way to Karen Pryor, I mean, there was no dog trainer that you started to work with or no sort of realization that like, oh, I don't wanna be a compulsion trainer?
Ken:
It's just not who I am. I would just never do that. And I think also too, like, you know, a lot of this comes into play with who I've been my whole life. I think one of the things I tell people all the time is like when I was a kid, I skied on a ski team and I skied slalom. And when we would come through the gates correctly, my coach would ring a bell if you came through the gate correctly. And at the end of the run, he would only ever talk to us about the gate that we came through correctly. He never, ever, ever mentioned, you know, what we goofed on and the gates that we didn't come through correctly.
And I remember that the other kids in the ski club with me, their parents, and including my parents were very upset at the coach and said, you know, why don't you tell them what they're messing up with? And he was like, Why? I don't want them to concentrate on that. I want them to concentrate on what they're doing well.
And I'm a really excellent skier, and it's thanks to him. And I think it's the same way that I went about just my whole career, and with Mac and with Scooter and all the dogs that I work with. It's like, let's look at what they're doing well and really acknowledge that. Because we don't want the bad behaviors or the behaviors you don't want to keep repeating themselves. And so was there a dog trainer in mind that did this? No, I can tell you, there was a lot of dog trainers who I didn't want to be like, Cesar Millan.
Annie:
Well, see, I'm curious –I think it's interesting and curious though that as someone in the media world where for instance, Cesar Millan is kind of a big deal that you didn't just think, well, that's how you train dogs, and that's that.
Ken:
I think, because being in the media world, I just saw right through it. I also think too, like that whole thing with the slip lead, when he would yank the dog's neck, it's like, why would you ever get a dog and need to do that? Like, to me, it just never ever, it just didn't happen for me. And I think too, it's because of the fact that, you know, my mom would always say too, you get, what is it more with honey than you do with vinegar.
And I just saw that through my life and my career, especially like with going through the film industry, with all the different crews that I've had. I need my crew to, to have my back, so to speak. And the only way they're gonna have my back is if I'm nice to them. And it's happened that way. Especially at Saturday Night Live. When I first started there, a lot of the guys – the type of work that we do at SNL, or the unit that I'm on is we do all the fake commercials and fake videos. So we don't actually work at Rockefeller center.
So these guys who only ever did work at Rockefeller center suddenly were now on the road with me, you know, going to different locations. And they weren't very good at it. They kept, you know, busting stuff and they just didn't know what to do. So I wasn't about to like, critique them on what they were doing wrong, anything that they did right I would just congratulate them on and praise them. And I have the greatest crew on the planet.
And it's the same way that I go about with the dog training and with my clients. And so during the sessions and so on, I praise my clients when they're doing something great. When they're not, I don't really say much. And at the end of the session, I think everybody kind of comes together with, like I said, it's that light bulb moment of, oh, I get it now. I get it. This is how we capture it. This is how we grab it. And it just seems to work well that way. So, no, I never really had a dog trainer, so to speak that, what do I say, inspired me? No.
Annie:
What was the response from your Saturday Night Live coworkers, when you said I'm gonna be a professional dog trainer now?
Ken:
They all loved it. And they all knew, they all thought it was a great idea. And I think they also too, because they knew that I was struggling with Scooter. So it became something that was really, really good. My producer at SNL, Mary Pomilla, also part of the company, and she does a lot of the press stuff for us, we decided what was super important for us so much for us is with the dog training thing, we wanted to get the word of positive reinforcement out. And it was a big mission in dog training to do this.
Because I had seen, you know, too much of the Cesar Millan types, the, you know, the prong collars and all that. And, I guess for me, it just was very, very confusing to get an animal that was going to be your best friend and then put a pinch collar on it or to put a slip collar on it and to be its boss. I've always wanted my dogs to be my friends, not to be their boss. So that's where it kind of came. It all kind of stemmed from that, I guess it's just ‘cause, honestly, because of the way that my career was, you know what I mean? It's like, I always did better with, let's find a way to get it done, than let's try to make it more difficult. And it's the same way with the dog training.
Annie:
How did your producer get involved?
Ken:
She's a friend of mine, Mary. She liked the whole idea of it. I think, Mary is younger than I am. She has a good spin on things, and I'm not very, very good at writing emails and all of that type of stuff. And Mary is really good at it. And she comes from a film background also, like her and her sisters make movies and so on.
And I just said to her, I said, let's do this with one goal in mind. Like, let's get, not so much the name of me out, but let's use the fact that I do work at Saturday Night Live as a plus. Let's do the whole thing, that Scooter is reactive in how we were able to help Scooter and how all of this can help other dogs. And it's really kind of snowballed. It snowballed more than we had ever anticipated, to be honest with you.
And I think also too, like I said, when people come into the sessions, they want to learn a new way. And television has made it that we only know one way, and that's the Cesar Millan way. So to speak of being the boss and all that stuff. And I think when they come in, it's very refreshing for them. It's like, oh my God, I never really thought of it this way. I never knew it this way. And you know, I explain so much to people, you know, environment, environment, environment, how important it is to be aware of it.
Like one of the things I find really fascinating is I have a house up in Vermont, which actually I'm at right now, is in the summertime, when people have parties with dogs, no one pays attention to the dogs. They're just, most of the time people just, you know, the dogs are running around the yard and every now and then you'll hear, “Get away from the barbecue, get away from the barbecue,” and that's it.
Annie:
Mm-hmm.
Ken:
And you know, in New York City, it's so different, and in Hoboken too, because it's like, everybody feels this need to go up and say hello to the dogs. And with reactive dogs, it's the last thing in the world they want is to have someone come up and say hello to them. And when people have a session with me with reactive dogs, I tell them, look, you need to get friends and family on board and just let the dog warm up on the dog's time. If it ever even wants to.
And people come back and they call me like, Oh my God, what a difference! The dog's so much better, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, of course it is because your dog's kind of like an introvert. We live, you know, in an extroverted world and your dog's an introvert. So not everybody wants to come up and say – you know, I know I'm the same way. You know what I mean? I don't need to say hello to everybody. And I don't want everybody to say hello to me. And for those dogs, it just works so much better to let the dog warm up on their time.
I get clients so often – “My dog hates men, hates men, actually can't stand men. Will bite men, bite men just can't stand men.” And I meet them outside of my studio. I completely just ignore the dog or I'll take treats and throw them past the dog, away from the dog. They'll come in the studio and I'll go over my whole spiel with them and all that. And by the end of the session, the dog is sniffing me in a really, really good place. But still I've never gone up to the dog. I've just let the dog warm up on its time.
Annie:
Well it seems like a lot of what you're talking about is sort of helping shift people's mindset towards thinking about what the dog actually needs and wants and learning to read the dog and trying to see things from the dog's point of view, rather than projecting their own preconceived ideas about what a dog, how a dog should be, what a dog should want on, onto the dog. Does that…?
Ken:
Yeah. And I think that's where we get into trouble lots of times, because like I said, it's like, we all tend to think that every dog is the happy go lucky lab, pat me on my head.
Annie:
Right.
Ken:
And so many of them aren't, and being in the city, you know, in Hoboken, in New York City and so on, it's hard for, it's hard for dogs. Like I know when I bring my dogs up here to Vermont, it's a completely different world for them. They're obsessed with squirrels. And go for it. You know what I mean? Go for your obsession with squirrels. You know, in Hoboken it's alarms, it's scooters, it's e-bikes, it's beeping of horns. It's a completely different environment that can be overwhelming for dogs.
And I, when I had lived in this city with Mac, I was always quite amazed actually at him, how loud sirens, for whatever reason, didn't freak him out, but loud sirens freak out my dog, Scooter. And it's, as you know, city dogs are quite a different breed, so to speak, than country dogs.
Annie:
Yeah. Well, you know, I always say, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.
Ken:
True. It's true.
Annie:
But it is this crazy thing that we're asking them to do, not only to live in these, you know, often relatively small apartments and to spend a lot of time alone, but then to make it so they’re on the city sidewalks, tethered and having to encounter God knows what outside. So it is asking a lot and I think that's something people really don't appreciate. So do you have a physical studio now in Hoboken?
Ken:
Yeah. Yep. 1012 Grand Street. It's really good. We do all the sessions in there.
Annie:
Is it like a storefront or what is it?
Ken:
No, it's like an artist's loft. Made up of a bunch of different little studios. And we don't do classes. It's all one-on-ones. And it's just, I’ve kind of been struggling with the classes. I just haven't found the time for me to do them, you know, with SNL and so on. And I know you guys do a ton of classes and I'm very envious of what you do. I'm a big fan of everything that you do. I give you lots of credit.
But I think for me, it's like, the trainer I do have, Lauren, does a lot of the puppies and the younger dogs, and I tend to do more of the reactive dogs. And we have really, really good success. I had a lady who came in, I don't know, a few weeks ago with a prong collar on a dog at the end of the session, she gave me the prong collar, and she just shot me a text the other day and says, I can't thank you enough, like how much better Sailor is doing since. And I got, you know, I got such a tear in my eye in the fact that like, you know, yay. You know what I mean? That's such good news.
I also think too that what happens, another one I get really, really confused about is I tell everybody, you know, when you go for a walk with your dog, you actually have to engage it, not your phone. You should leave your phone at home. Because too much of what I see anyways is just in life in general is we spend way too much time on the phone. Way too much time on the phone, and why would we get this amazing creature that just wants nothing to do with what to love us? And to ignore it on walks, I don't even get it.
And the other thing too, that I, I see, and I'm sure you see it too, is when people are walks with their dogs on their phones, the only time they pay attention to their dogs is when the dog does something they don't want them to do so while the dog is offering all this amazing behavior, we're on our phones and it's like, oh, you're missing it. You're just missing it. So, bit of advice, leave the phone at home.
Annie:
[laughs] Yeah, that's a good piece of advice. Or, if you're gonna use the phone, take pictures of your dog getting it right. You know, I think you can use the phone as a clicker really, to pinpoint those moments.
Now, are you ever working with dogs then, or seeing, I guess you're not working directly with the talent if you're working on sets, but are you ever seeing dogs on set then at SNL?
Ken:
We did a skit I guess in the fall. It was called Bones. And we had some dogs on set.
Annie:
Oh, I, I remember that it was like a store that sold bones?
Ken:
Bones. Right.
Annie:
It was weird. [laughs]
Ken:
Yes, it was weird. And I remember we had some dogs, but all the dogs, they're all good. They come from a couple of different training people that we use, you know, animal wranglers as they, so to speak. And they're all treated really, really, really well. There is no, you know, nobody's ordering the dogs around or anything like that. So that's really good.
One of the things I did want to just bring up was for me, I guess it was last spring or a year or so ago or whatever. I'm sure you know of Kim Brophey?
Annie:
Oh yeah. Yeah, I saw that, that you did the L.E.G.S. program. Yeah. Tell me about that.
Ken:
Yes. And, and I have to say, honestly, it has been a game changer. And if anybody has not read the book, Meet Your Dog, go read Meet Your Dog.
Annie:
It’s an excellent, excellent book. Yeah.
Ken:
Amazing book. And I think for me and for my clients, I tell them, you know, you had mentioned the fact that it's like about dog spending all this time in their crate at home alone and all that. And so much too is what I tell people. It's like, you have to understand, even if it's a mutt, you know, what are the types of breeds that your dog is made up of, and how important it's to understand what their needs are of that breed.
The other one that I'm really, really big on is enrichment. And I think, you know, you just can't walk your dog in the morning, one afternoon walk, and then one at night and think it's enough. It's not nearly enough. You know, going to parks with 15 foot leads or 16 foot leads and letting them sniff is so crazy important.
And I tell people too, it's like, remember when you go for a walk with your dog, it's for your dog. It's not your walk, it's the dog's walk, as I try to say. And I tell people, if you're in a rush and your dog doesn't really walk well, don't take your dog along because you're just gonna frustrate you and your dog. But one of the things that, that we try to do, my wife and I, is every single day when we're in Hoboken is to take the dogs over to Liberty State Park with like these really long leads and just let them take us on as I'm sure, you know, the terminology sniffafaris.
Annie:
Mm-hmm.
Ken:
And it's really good for them and I can see how much it's helped them. And when I tell people this and, and explain, go take your dog in a really beautiful walk out in a park, just not around, you know, smelling concrete and let them sniff and sniff and sniff and see if you notice any difference. Like, ‘Oh my God, what a difference it's been.’ It's like, of course it is. It's the same difference when you either ski on ice or you ski on powder.
Annie:
Yeah.
Ken:
So, you know, a lot of that is crazy important for people.
Annie:
I often recommend, especially people with smaller dogs, that they train the dog to be okay going in a bag, because sometimes you really do just need to get your dog somewhere.
Ken:
Yes!
Annie:
You wanna bring your dog somewhere and, you know, your dog might not be able to keep up with you. So it's okay, I think, to have walks that are really for your dog. And also have walks, you know, where you maybe have an agenda – agenda in that you need to get your dog home or get to wherever you're going. But also then have sort of that other option – I'm talking specifically about city dwellers, because people who aren't in cities can throw their dog in the car, maybe.
But as someone who's had a dog in the city now for many, many, many years it's certainly been a game changer for so many reasons to be able to put my dog in a bag and take the subway, take a cab, take a bus.
Ken:
It's funny you say that, because when I lived in the city with Mac, we had like, you know, one of those LL Bean tote bags.
Annie:
Oh yeah! The boat and tote.
Ken:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we would put Mac in that all the time, get in the subway, ‘Alright, Mac, get in the bag,’ and he'd just jump in the bag. No problem at all. And we would take him around the city like that all of the time. And he loved it. He loved it. And it's funny, you mentioned that about the bag.
One of the other things I tell people, especially with young dogs is getting them socialized and so on. So I say, take 'em to Home Depot, bring a mat, throw it in the shopping cart, and push your dog around Home Depot and Lowe's. And the clients who do always call me back and go, ‘Oh my God, it was so great. It was so wonderful. He just likes it now’ and you know, and all that. So it's like a tip of mine to get the dogs out and get them used to seeing certain things, but where they still feel safe.
Annie:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. During the pandemic, I suggested that people go to parking lots of somewhere like Home Depot. At least you're seeing lots of different kinds of people carrying weird stuff.
Ken:
Yep. Yep. It was funny ‘cause Mac used to – whenever we would drive by, I don't know if it was just something I would notice or not, but it always seemed as though if there was a Home Depot sign, he'd always pick his head up like ‘Are we going in? Are we going in?’
Annie:
[laughs] Can you talk a little bit more about L.E.G.S.? What it is since you've done the program and what the program is?
Ken:
You know, what it did for me, the L.E.G.S. program for me, is it gave me a whole new way of understanding how dogs learn.
Annie:
Well, let, let's go back. What does L.E.G.S. stand for, for someone who knows nothing about it?
Ken:
Learning, environment, genetics and self. And the part that hit me the most, I guess, is when I am in Hoboken, it's environment. And when I am in Vermont, it's not so much environment anymore as it is learning. And I don't know why it is. It just happens to be that way. But one of the things I spend a ton, a ton of time on with my clients is having them understand that like every city block you go down is completely different for the dog. And it was kind of when we went back to the beginning of this conversation about humanizing our dogs, is every block is different for the dog. It may be the same for us. And because every block has a different sound or it doesn't have a sound, we may not notice it, but the dog does.
So where people, I think, struggle with the whole environment thing is you gotta really be aware of the environment. And I don't think, honestly, what I have seen is people don't even consider the environment. And that's what I try to get across to people so, so, so much is be able to understand that environment. Because people will tell me all the time, like my dog will come to an intersection and not wanna move anymore. It just wants to stay there. And it's like, well, give it a moment to absorb. Give it a moment to actually understand what is going on before you hurry it down the street.
And, and so for me, like I said, what I got so much outta the L.E.G.S. was having the dogs – be understanding what safety is and how important it is for them, understanding the environment, and understanding how they learn and how each dog learns differently. I mean, I could talk about L.E.G.S. all day, which we just don't have the time obviously to go on and on and on about. But it was definitely a game changer for me, in being able to help people.
And especially like, I have clients up here in Vermont which I don't go over the same stuff with as I do down in Hoboken, where up here – how do I explain it? They don't have the noises that we have down there. So what I tell people, now, I don't want to sound repetitive, is the environment plays so much in a dog's learning and especially in a city environment.
And where we need to be so aware of this, like I wish we had eyes outta the backs of our heads, especially with reactive dogs, because if you're not aware your dog's gonna fail. And being acutely aware of what your dog is going through because of the environment will give you so much more success. And that was the big thing for me, as I said, that I took away from L.E.G.S. having teaching city dogs.
Annie:
Mm-hmm. Now, is it a real time course? Is it video?
Ken:
It’s a video. It's Kim Brophey. It's a really, really super, super long video. There are quizzes and so on inside of it. But it's a whole bunch of stuff that I never even would even have considered before. I'm obsessed with ology now, where I never was before in the past. Obsessed now with dogs' needs because of who they are with breeds and so on. I'm obsessed with when people come in, of really kind of breaking it down and going, well, so much of what the behavior that you're having with your dogs right now is because your dog's not getting what it needs as a breed.
You know, my youngest one is a mini Australian shepherd. Her name is Jersey. And, she loves to come up and my ankles, you know what I mean? And all that type of stuff. And, mini Australians seem to be very, very popular, at least in Hoboken now in how people say, well, you know, my dog does this and wants to like herd all the time. And it's like, well, you have to give the dog a job to be able to do that. You can't just ignore it, so to speak. That's what I tell them. It's like, you know, you gotta give the dog something to do.
So, like, one of the things that we do with Jersey is she just loves to constantly like be herding and herding and herding. So we bring her favorite squeaky toy, which is a worm, with us on walks and we take it, we throw it on the ground, like, go take, go take it. She goes and gets it. And she feels really big, big girl about it. She picks it up and she'll run with her with her worm. So it's worked with helping her being able to so-called herd things. You know what I mean? And ever since we started taking the worm with us on walks, she's been really, really, really great, where before she was constantly, I guess, looking for something to herd.
So those are the type of things that I try to tell people. It's like, you gotta look for what your dog's built for and incorporate it. Like with retrievers, it's like, you don't play ball with your dog? Like your dog's going crazy. It needs to have that. So those are the things that I got out of L.E.G.S. that has helped, I think a lot of clients understand what the dogs actually need.
And, you know, not to get all – like predatory sequence, motor action patterns, and all that type of stuff that no one even thought about before, where I think the L.E.G.S. program has helped me help clients in having my clients understand, look, your dog's just being a dog. You can't yell at your dog or scold your dog for what it's actually built to do.
Annie:
If someone's listening to this and just interested in getting into dog training, maybe at a professional level, what do you suggest that they do first?
Ken:
Go to Karen Pryor. I would say that. Go to Karen Pryor, go to at least a program that is certified. That covers a lot of bases. For me so much of, and I know you too, is when I look for people to come work at the company, they have to have a certification, or be willing to come to the company and get certified well at the company, because it's, it's something that you're not gonna get elsewhere, so to speak.
And I think one of the things too, that has surprised me as a dog trainer is how emotional it is. I've been quite surprised by that, to be honest with you. I wish there were times I could have had cameras set up all over my studio where, you know, suddenly the client just starts crying and it's like, oh my God, I've been doing this all wrong and all that. And it's like, you know, you just haven't been doing it because you didn't know. So it's definitely more emotional than I had ever, ever, ever dreamed of. I don't know if you feel the same way.
Annie:
For me, I feel like it's emotional in ways that goes beyond dog training. Like I have family that uses shock collars on their dog, multiple types of shock collars, and their dog attacks other dogs. And they see neither thing as a big deal. And they don't understand why I can't – like, they think I'm like holier than thou about it all and don't understand how it's all so upsetting to me.
Ken:
Yeah. It is very upsetting. One of the things I've actually started doing on Instagram to be completely honest with you is like anybody who uses the prong of the shock and all that stuff, I just block them. I can't even deal with it. I try, for me, if I see people in the streets and so on, I'll go up and kind of talk to, 'em say, Hey, I'm a dog trainer. If you ever want to get a lesson, you know, if they're using a prong collar, and so on, come by, I’ll talk to you and all of that. And I do get people who come by, and I've actually acquired quite a collection of prong collars given to me, which has made me happy.
But I just still to this day just don't understand how people get an animal and to inflict pain on it for training. It's unbelievable. One of the other ones, too, that I tell every client that comes in is I always tell them, look at your dog's most smartest day when the clouds have parted and the sun is shining rays on your dog, it's equivalent probably at best to a two and a half year old toddler. And they all kind of go, ooh. And it's like, yeah, it's a two year old toddler. And like, you wouldn't be putting a prong collar on a two year old toddler now, would you?
Annie:
Hmm.
Ken:
And they go, oh yeah. Right, right, right. And the other thing too, is that I tell people is, especially people who come in with, you know, I have a dog who's six months old or a year old. They're not walking well on the leash. And I'm really frustrated and all of that. And I tell them all the time, and how many years did it take you to be good at algebra? Oh, and you're still not good at algebra.
Annie:
[laughing] Well, right. And especially like when we're asking them to walk on a leash in this super crazy environment.
Ken:
Right. And another thing too, is I have to say that I got, back to the Kim Brophey thing real quick, was she might have a really good point of like, animals are our captive prisoners, if you think about it. We keep them on a six foot lead. We tell them where to walk, when to walk, who to play with, when they're playing with it or with their dog. We are basically their captors. They are our prisoners.
Annie:
A hundred percent. Yeah.
Ken:
And and when, if you think of other dogs who live in, you know, South America and so on, who aren't captive animals, and how they've had to adjust in the fact that those dogs have to cope and they have to be friendly to survive because they're scavengers, and how our dogs are just so different in what we do with them. It's really, really, really hard for domestic dogs. I mean, it's nothing that comes easy for them, by any means.
Especially like leash frustration and all that. It's like this is something, an enormous change for the dog. And that's where the course also helped out quite a bit, the Kim Brophey course. It was like I said, stuff that you just didn't really think of before. Yeah, highly recommend it, highly recommend it. It changed a lot of the way that I teach things.
And one of the things that I tell people all the time is one of the things we don't teach is Sit. And I always kind of give this analogy, you know, if you're walking down a dark alley and you're about to get mugged, and out of nowhere, your mother comes and tells you to sit. It's like, are you insane? I’m flipping out of my brain right now and you want me to sit? This is insanity. So what I tell people all the time is, you know, if your dog is showing signs of fear, showing signs of anxiousness, the last thing you want to do is put them in a sit because it really puts them in a really vulnerable position.
And I tell people to also, you know, that if you are at a concert and here comes your favorite musician out on stage, and you're jumping up and down, and you're all excited. And you're about to go into a dog park, about to go outside on a walk, whichever it may be. And your parent, your mother was sitting there screaming at you saying to sit. It's like, are you crazy?
So one of the things that we teach is what I call Easy, where we don't have to go into a sit. We're just easy. We're okay. We're cool. We can get outta here. Let's not worry about it. I got this under control. I know what's going on. Let's move on and get outta here. So I don't teach, sit. You know what I mean? I look at sit as, and all my clients will tell you it's, as for fun, sit should just be for fun. It shouldn't be for a behavior, you do this behavior before you get that behavior, or before you get this, to me, it doesn't even make sense.
Especially with reactive dogs. It's like, you know, you know how you, you know, the whole rule that, you know, distance is your best friend. So at a distance, you know what I mean? It's like, look, you can stand and I'm gonna click and treat and say, good. Yes. Good, good, good, nice and easy. This is what we want. This is easy. This is easy. And it's the same thing with my dogs up here, like in Vermont, where I'm at right now, before we go outside, I don't tell my dogs sit at the door. You must sit before you can go outside and chase a squirrel. It's like, let's just be easy for a moment. Okay. We're easy. Now go ahead.
So for me, that's like really important. And one of the things also, too, that I got out of that course is understanding yet again what the dog needs at the time. We don't want our dog to go over threshold, obviously, but at the same time too, it's like, I don't expect the dog to sit, it's just to me, it doesn't even make sense. So there you go in my philosophy on sit.
Annie:
I think people are weirdly obsessed with sitting, and…
Ken:
It's weirdly obsessed. That's funny. It's true.
Annie:
And also, I actually I just recorded a podcast episode about how frustrated I get when people approach a dog on the street or in any place really where they don't know the dog. And suddenly they're saying, you know, Sit, Shake, whatever, where it's like, ya just met this dog. Isn't it nice the dog is just existing in front of you in perhaps like, call it an easy way? Like, isn't that enough? Why does the dog have to have their butt on the ground?
It's like this default way we have of controlling an animal by thinking, like, if we know where it's butt is, but what the reality is that it ends up with people leaning over their dogs in a awkward way, not making the dog feel comfortable, doing wild hand motions with their hands saying, Sit, sit, sit over and over and over again, like who's benefiting from any of that?
Ken:
Right. And it kind of brings me back to the question you had asked me a while ago about what dog trainer I had kind of liked or got me guided along the way. And I think the only dog trainer was honestly, it was being an introvert. Myself. And I think, you know, I brought that to the dog training table where it was like, well, what is it that I like and don't like? And I think it just made sense for me, you know what I mean? And in understanding that with, especially what dogs want. Because there's a whole bunch of stuff I don't really like, and I'm sure the dog would be the same way.
Annie:
Yeah, totally.
Ken:
Yeah.
Annie:
Well, thank you so much for your time. anything we didn't cover that you think is worth, worth going over?
Ken:
No. I just wanna say I'm a huge fan of yours. I think what you're doing in the city is amazing.
Annie:
Oh, thank you.
Ken:
I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and what you guys do. And I wish you all the best of luck and I hope someday we can actually meet.
Annie:
Yeah, me too. And if you, well, if you ever wanna teach classes for us, I know your schedule's a little all over the place, but you can let us know.
Ken:
And vice versa if ever wanna come to Hoboken, I would love to have it come to Hoboken.
Annie:
Okay, well, let's keep in touch. Thanks so much.
