10 JunEpisode 209 | Private socialization lessons for “Misfit” dogs of NYC: A conversation with two School For The Dogs (human) clients
The term "misfit" originally referred to people who were considered to be not great fit for their surroundings -- an ill fit. I miss fit. At School For The Dogs, we see it as our goal to help dogs -- whenever possible -- exist comfortably in an environment that may not be the best fit for them. New York City certainly isn't the best fit for many individuals of any species, which is perhaps one reason why we have several programs specifically for Misfit dogs. In this episode, Annie talks to two School For The Dogs clients who have been attending a couple of unique types of private sessions: Dog Socialization and Misfits Day School. New York-based dog owners Alyssa and Jen talk about how these sessions have helped them help their "Misfit" dogs.
Learn more about these services here.
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Transcript:
Alyssa:
You know, I hear people say all the time that their dog is so socialized because when they got them as a puppy, they let them say hi to everyone and they let them say hi to every puppy. And so that's why they credit their dog to being so well behaved. And it just really gets under my skin because, you know, I did that too with him because I honestly didn't know better. And it really, I think, backfired. Because now when we walk down the street, he searches for humans or dogs to say hi to him. And it just doesn't always work out for every dog. And so I think having a well socialized dog takes a lot more work than exposing him to every human and creature that you encounter when they're young.
[music]
Annie:
Do you have a dog who doesn’t necessarily get along with every other dog? One way to deal with those issues: send your dog to a good school. At School For The Dogs, we have several programs designed to help dogs exist more comfortably around other dogs and to help their owners set them up for success. I’m Annie Grossman, owner of School For The Dogs in New York City, and today I’m speaking with two clients who have been making use of two of our very special programs that we run out of our East village studio. One is called Dog Socialization, and the other is called Misfits Day School. If you’re wondering if one of these programs might be right for you and your dog, you can learn more at SchoolForTheDogs.com.
Alyssa:
My name's Alyssa Perry. I am dog owner to Michael, who is a two year old mixed breed dog of some sort. And I adopted him right before the pandemic, so in February of 2020, and I ended up seeking out your services because he is quite a handful. I love him very dearly, but he occupies a lot of my time, and good and better time now. More productive time than before I came to you all.
Annie:
You had done some training though, before coming to us, isn't that right?
Alyssa:
Yes. I guess just because we had got him in February of 2020, we, I had done some virtual training, and then I did do some training where I was relocated in Philadelphia. Some in person training there too.
Annie:
What were the specific issues that you were experiencing with Michael?
Alyssa:
At the time, I just didn't realize, I guess, that maybe he had anxiety. He's very confident, very loud, very energetic. And so the idea that a dog like that could also have anxiety wasn't really something that I had thought of beyond general separation anxiety. And so I think I didn't appreciate the difficulties that that presented in him having an enjoyable life at the time, and then also ways that I could foster a better training experience.
I thought I had, you know, grown up with dogs and I've had two dogs in the past. And so I thought I knew about dogs, but it really was just the tip of the iceberg. And I was very focused on separation anxiety, ‘cause that was one of his problems that he really dealt with on a daily basis, and still does, but was so severe as as many people I think probably experienced then and now that I had a hard time leaving the house at all.
Annie:
Tell me about his behavior with other dogs, because I looked back at your account and I saw that your very first visit to us was actually a puppy playtime. Right before the pandemic closed things down.
Alyssa:
Yeah. That was sad.
Annie:
Well, and so I'm curious to hear how that went and then how he subsequently became with other dogs.
Alyssa:
Yeah. So he – I think I just didn't know – he has a ton of energy and during COVID I was living in Philadelphia, and I just had this idea that I didn't know how to get it out, and walking him extensively, he didn't like, and so I started taking him to the dog park, the large dog park. And I was spending like an hour there every day, teaching him what now I realize is terrible dog behavior, because I had no control over him in a huge park. And it's, you know, not that he was, at the time, particularly aggressive towards other dogs, but if there were behaviors that he was, you know, engaging in regularly, I had no way to stop them. And so, and I just sort of deferred to everyone around me at the dog park that just said, Oh, he's just being a dog.
Annie:
“They'll work it out.”
Alyssa:
Exactly. And so I went every day, ‘cause at some point I was a little bit desperate for a way to get out all his energy. And ‘cause I otherwise was sitting at home, working remotely, and he was, if he didn't have his hour at the park, he was sort of hard to contain while I was trying to work. But I realized it really just cemented a lot of not great socialization behaviors that I have learned about. And they’re just so much harder to undo now.
He is, I think something that a lot of dogs are, even if he's not aggressive necessarily towards other dogs on the street, when he sees another dog on the street, it's hard to redirect him, but it's also, inmore casual terms, it's just hard to get his attention away. So if we're walking down the street and he sees another dog, it's like, he's zeroed in on it.
Annie:
What were the kinds of things that you think happened at the dog park that led him, I don't know how you say it, astray?
Alyssa:
He has a strong chase instinct and he is also kind of slow. So I think when other dogs are running around him, he wants to chase them, but he can't necessarily catch up with them. And so he's a big butt biter. And so that scares a lot of other people, but you know, I think if you start going to the dog park every day, you get to know a lot of the folks, and so people are sort of forgiving of it.
But Michael is just generally mouthy with humans and other dogs alike. And so I think sort of reinforcing that behavior on a daily basis that he could put his mouth on other dogs, it reinforced it with humans. And I do understand, and I'm sure there's some level of like mouthing that goes on during play between dogs, but you know what I've learned from –
Annie:
Or some dogs are gonna be more tolerant of that than other dogs.
Alyssa:
Right, exactly. And so, it just can create a problem and it can be scary at times. And I really am exposing all my sad, embarrassing truth, but I had actually taken Michael to like a sleepaway camp also in January of 2021, because I was like sort of a little bit like – desperate seems like a strong word, but..it was, it's actually this one that my parents’ family friends have taken their dog to, which I'm sure no one has ever heard of in New Hampshire. And so I thought he'd be outside. It would be really great for him, but it didn't turn out that way. It wasn't a great experience for him or me.
Annie:
We often hear this kind of thing about board and train kind of situations.
Alyssa:
And I probably exacerbated his separation anxiety issues, but I think that's when I brought him home from there and I realized things hadn't changed is when I felt like, okay, like I need to make a better plan. And so I decided to make my way back to New York, and make my way back to you guys. And I got paired up with Anna and we had our first private session and she suggested Misfits, which I think it's a little bit of a hike out of a workday for me to get Michael up there and then for me to get back to working and then go pick him up.
But I think it's also just been instrumental to him to have like a two or three hour period of time. And I think also it's, it's helpful to be for him to be at like your shop at School For The Dogs instead of being in my apartment, because I think the getting him getting out and seeing everyone at School For The Dogs is, I think that is much better.
I can't remember exactly how we started going to dog socialization, but I do remember our first visit with Claire. So you show up and there's a trainer there with their dog, and the dog is behind essentially, like what we see all the time, those puppy play gates sort of as created like an enclosure for their own dog. And I think it's partially, or mostly, probably helpful as to keep it somewhat disclosed from your dog. So when your dog comes in, they can lay down and get relaxed. And so to start off sort of the session, as getting introduced to another dog, depending on what your dog's comfort level is with other dogs.
Annie:
Yeah. What was his comfort like with other dogs?
Alyssa:
I guess this is something that's always been like an enigma to me, which is dog socialization classes have been really helpful, is that he, Michael loves socializing with other dogs, but as Claire says he's really awkward about it and he has very bad manners around other dogs. And he's pretty, I think if, you know, he's with another dog who will let him get away with it, then he is pushy, certainly.
But he also seems to have anxiety from other dogs, which is not something that I really appreciated and realized. I thought like, oh, I bring him to the dog park and he loves other dogs. And so I didn't, I couldn't figure out how those two things could go hand in hand, that your dog might like other dogs, but at the same time it might cause him a lot of anxiety.
So for Michael, when we first got there, we were downstairs on our first session, and Claire's dog Otis was behind like a little enclosure with some drapes over it so Michael couldn't see him. But he still, I guess, could smell him and just being there was exciting for him. So I think on the first session, a lot of it was just going back to basics. Or we had just started learning them, but how to relax on a mat and stay calm and redirect his attention when he's triggered and sort of becomes reactive.
At class, you sort of reveal Otis from behind the gate, and then they are allowed to sniff each other. And then in the beginning, on the first few times that we went, Michael would like try to, I don't know if he was trying to boss Otis around or trying to play with him, but he wasn't the most polite, and Otis let him know that what was good behavior and what was bad behavior, in a way that you know, it was just a good learning experience from him.
You know, Michael might have gone up and tried to mouth his face or something, and Otis sort of just gives him a short little snark, almost like a bark slash like, you know, he lets him know that this isn't cool. That was good for me because Michael doesn't really get corrected a lot at dog parks, and often it doesn't seem like there's any in between. It's either like dogs aren't correcting each other or they are correcting each other and it's very vicious or an overreaction. And it escalates very quickly. Now these days, Michael isn't actually that super interested in playing with Otis. So now I think it's just a good opportunity for him to learn how to be around another dog.
He's, I would say, a totally different dog than when we first started going. Some issues have resolved. I've learned that some issues might never be resolved, but I guess I've learned more about them and they've given me insight into him. And then, so I would say it's sort of – the first thing is that I'm much better able to redirect his attention when he sees another dog and he's very reactive. I'm able to sort of get his focus back on me, which is like a safety thing, I think, on the streets of New York. And then also just, he's a lot less reactive generally. So I think that's helpful living in an apartment building, but then it's also allowed him to sort of move to the next level with Claire’s dog Otis.
And then I've sort of learned through these sessions and through working with Claire, and maybe not through direct experiences with Otis but just from having a great resource, that the dog park isn't a great place for him. And on the occasions that I have brought him to the dog park here in New York, some of them have not gone so swimmingly. So I've just learned through working with you guys, that's just not the best way to get his energy out, and it can be sort of a dangerous place for him. You know, he does love other dogs, but we have to figure out how to make those experiences happen.
I have a lot of friends who seem to have a lot easier of dogs, you know, that seem to be very ‘beta’ around other dogs. So, but I do think I generally talk a lot about School For The Dogs with my friends. Cause I think what's unique and what I really like about it and what if I leave New York will ever miss, is that it's like one stop shopping for your dog. Meaning you can, I think it's important to see a trainer, so you can talk about any specific issues that you might have individually. But if you need to go to Misfits or if your dog is a little bit better behaved and you know, maybe they wanna go to Day School as an alternative to sort of do training and dog daycare and a lot of things in one.
Or, you know, now that Michael and I have a little bit of a better handle around like general behavior that was really stressing me out, we did Tricks with Anna virtually in November and December. And that was really like a good outlet. So Michael wasn't just doing basic training, that he actually was having a little fun, and now he knows how to do a few things that I incorporate into tiring him out. And also, it's just a little bit more fun to do those types of training games.
Annie:
I have to ask, how did you give him, how did he come to be called Michael ?
Alyssa:
That was, he was blessed with the name Michael, by Bideawee. And I don't know why. I should have changed, I guess I had the opportunity to change it, but I thought it was kind of cute.
Annie:
We've had two or three dogs named Michael and it's one of those dogs named, I don't know, like Kevin or something. It's hilarious in its, like, human boringness, attached to a dog.
Alyssa:
I met a Matthew the other day and I was like, Matthew?
Annie:
Matthew?
Alyssa:
Yes, a dog named Matthew. And I was like, oh, that's weird. And I was like, oh, you have a dog named Michael, so.
[laughing]
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Jen:
Hi, I'm Jen, I'm guardian of Queenie who's an Australian cattle dog. She's about three years old. Queenie's a rescue dog, so she's only been in my life about five months. I found her through the Australian cattle dog rescue rescue group, and I saw her online and got more information about her. And then, she got caravaned all the way up from almost the border of Canada in New York to me here in New York City.
Annie:
Were you looking in particular for a cattle dog in New York City? Tell me more!
Jen:
Yes, I've had – I know. And now it's like, was this a mistake? No, but you know, I've had cattle dogs or cattle dog mixes in the past, so I've just always really liked that breed of dog. They're a good size, you know, they're not too big and they're not too small. And they're very smart and they like learning things. So usually that's a big part of what I like to do with dogs as well.
Annie:
How did you come to School For The Dogs? How did you find School For The Dogs in the beginning?
Jen:
Actually two ways. One was that the rescue group sent me to a site with recommended schools that had certain type of certification, and you guys were on there. And then also, a friend of mine who had trained with Kate a long time ago I think when you guys were just starting out, had recommended the school to me as well. So she sent me the link.
So, well, Queenie since she was from the country, she wasn't used to all the noises and all the close proximity, I think, of other dogs in the city. So as soon as I got her, it was very clear she was very leash reactive to other dogs. She loves people, but dogs are not what she's used to encountering.
Annie:
Or dogs, at least in close counters when on leash, on the city streets. It's asking a lot of dogs when you break it down, right?
Jen:
Yes. So, and I actually, I've had rescue dogs before, but I'd never had one with this particular type of reactivity, so I didn't really know much about it. I've had dogs that had other rescue dog challenges, but not this one. So I had a virtual consultation with Claire first, and she gave me a few tips. And then I talked to her about the different options were that I'd seen on the website and which ones made sense for Queenie. It seemed like Misfits was a really good option because, basically, that is a description of her state. She's really smart, but she can't socialize very well. And then I've had, you know, Claire come to my house and, and help, you know, help Queenie in her own environment.
And then, because a cattle dog’s very high energy and smart, they just require a lot of work, which I was prepared for. But obviously since I'm also working from home, it was useful to incorporate some things like the day training so that Queenie also builds relationships with other people, not just me. And then we added on the dog socialization because obviously it's very difficult to get a safe space to expose Queenie to other dogs since usually on the street is not the best environment. And usually then we're trying to run away. So it's not in a great time to have a dialogue with another dog owner about how maybe we could try some socialization out. So that's why the dog socialization was particularly helpful for a dog kind of like Queenie.
Annie:
How would you describe what our dog socialization service is, or how have you described it maybe, to people who are trying to picture this, understand this?
Jen:
Yeah, it's basically a very short session with a helper dog. In this case it's Claire's dog Otis. And he's really great because he's deaf and just got a great disposition, so he's not gonna react if Queenie barks at him or kind of lunges towards him. And it's set up very safely, so there's a lot of barriers and so she's not gonna be able to hurt him, or get at him, but we can kind of slowly try to reward her for positive behaviors around other dogs, and kind of have a very controlled environment for, you know, how she's exposed. So it's not like a surprise, like on the street or it's not just like suddenly out of nowhere.
So yeah, the trainer has their dog, and then we usually spend a few minutes just sort of getting Queenie calmed down in the environment. And then when she's in a good state, we progressively reveal more and more of Otis. Queenie’s reactive a little bit more to movement. So sometimes it's like, Hey, if we just show his paw or his nose, is that an issue? You know, no. Okay. You know, oh, but he stood up, that's an issue. And then if she can disengage from reacting to him, then we have all sorts of delicious, and, you know, lamb lung. There's a barrier, a gate with a curtain over it. And, you know, we can move the curtain.
Annie:
Lovingly sewn by me.
Jen:
Those are great curtains.
Annie:
Thank you.
Jen:
And then sometimes in the upstairs, there's a little courtyard, so he can kind of like – Claire will pretend walk him out there. It's far away and there's like multiple barriers – and see if Queenie's okay with it. You know, not directly near her. And kind of reward her for not reacting to him even moving around outside.
She's definitely over time gotten a lot better at disengaging from other dogs on the street. If they're across the street, she kind of looks away and will look at me. Or if she's behind them and they're not like face to face, she's much more tolerant of that. And then also the intensity of her reactions to the dogs has gone down. So, when I first got her, she would wanna lunge at them. She would bark, she'd be very worked up and I'd basically have to drag her away by the harness.
Now it's like sometimes she wants to run over to them, and doesn't bark, or she might not let loose a smaller bark. But she's easier to, you know, get to do a U-turn or a Find It, and she'll kind of respond to other tactics and we can remove ourselves from the intensity of the situation.
And then I would say also, she's really improved her recovery time in a lot of cases. So previously when we'd walk, if she encountered any other dog, which was pretty much immediately in a lot of cases, she would have trouble for the rest of the walk focusing on anything else. And we'd just have to go home because it was way over threshold for her. But now, we can have situations where she has, even if she has a little bit of a surprise dog situation, after a couple minutes she can reset and we can kind of continue the walk as if that hadn't happened. So that's been another really positive thing for her.
Annie:
How many of the dog socialization sessions have you done?
Jen:
I wanna say like four or five.
Annie:
And do you see it as something that you're gonna graduate or that you'll just keep doing to kind of keep her in shape?
Jen:
That's an interesting question. She's not at a point where she can graduate yet, because that's the closest quarter she can get with another dog. And so I think it's something where we kind of just keep, have to keep going until she reaches the point where she's comfortable with it.
Annie:
What kind of advice would you give to someone who's having this kind of issue? A dog who's reactive on the street, but maybe can't work at a facility like ours.
Jen:
I mean, I think the best advice Claire has given me was often to be okay at ending the walk, if it's too much for the dog. I often felt like I had to really continue until I reached an hour or 45 minutes or something. And, now it’s like, if it's not a good situation, then I shouldn't keep trying to prolong it ‘cause it's not making it better for Queenie. So I think that gave me permission to sort of not feel like I had to like complete my mission of a certain amount of, you know, cattle dogs require a lot of exercise. So, there's times we would just go home and then we would try again later when it was, maybe, you know, she calmed down.
So that was one good piece of advice from Claire. And then I think also, just, it requires a lot of time and patience to work on this type of concern. And so, be okay with that. It's not gonna be resolved in one or two sessions and you can get a lot of really good tools to distract them away from another dog and kind of know where to look and not always have them run into a dog in a surprise way and have certain tools to have you look out for them on the walks.
Annie:
Well, well put. Well, thank you so much for your time. Anything that we didn't cover about this, that you think people would be interested in, or any other service that you've done that you think's worth mentioning?
Jen:
I mean, I guess I would say in Misfits, sometimes there's another dog there, and also in a very controlled way.
Annie:
Yeah. Well, Misfits is, so I guess why don't you describe kind of what Misfits is?
Jen:
Yeah, Misfits is like a one-on-one session with just Queenie and a trainer for a couple hours, and they take breaks in between.
Annie:
And it's drop off. So you're not –
Jen:
Yeah, it's drop off. Yes. I take her to the school and I drop her off, and she works with a trainer for a few hours with breaks. And they do a variety of things. Some are just like fun, you know, she's very agile. So they'll do fun things to let her work on her agility. And then some of it's on specific things, like she doesn't like being handled on her feet. So sometimes they'll help socialize her to some booties for the winter or things like that.
There's often two or three of those going on at once in different areas or rooms, and there's many barriers and curtains, but they can kind of get a sense of whether, you know, Queenie senses there's another dog there. Sometimes it's a stuffed dog. But you know, she gets a little bit of exposure in a safe environment there too, because all the trainers know all the dogs' issues and how to handle them. And there's many barriers. So it's not something where it's stressful to the dog.
So that's another area where it's been helpful for her, but also I think just having her mind occupied helps reduce her reactivity in general as well. You know, the more she's able to get other types of stimulation, the less she's focused on – I think it's like humans. Right? You know, the less she's focused on things that make her anxious.
Annie:
Mm-hmm. Has your perception of sort of dog training in general changed since you've gotten Queenie? Would you say?
Jen:
Um, yeah, I mean, I've always done some puppy classes and things like that with my dogs in the past. So I had some exposure to like, you know, it's useful to have them loose leash walk and know how to sit and not jump on people. But yeah, I learned a lot of interesting things about more like how dogs need to have choices, and how to look at a little more of their body language, and how, kind of really pay more attention to how they are in their environment, as opposed to what I want them to do, to help manage the situation. So I think it's really been a good mix of tools, and training of me.
And, you know, there've definitely been times where I've been a little stressed out and kind of given Claire an elaborate download about my situation. And she's just very good at saying like, it's okay, like, that's normal. Just keep going, you know, just keep going, or try this. So I think it's been especially helpful to have just all sorts of different types of tools and approaches. It's not just me doing it, or me and Claire, you know, there's a lot of other ways to add variety to Queenie’s program, and it helps her in a lot of different ways. All the programs are great. It's great to have such variety and not just be like, okay, we can only take one class, and is that class working? I don't know. You know, so, and it's great to have Queenie be able to meet a lot of different people because she kind of needs that, so she can have relationships with different trainers and get to know them. And that's all super helpful for her too.
[music]
Annie:
If you’re interested in learning more about dog socialization and our Misfits day programs, you can learn more by booking a free virtual consult with one of our trainers at schoolforthedogs.com/consult. And just a reminder that we are still accepting applications for our six month professional course which will be fully virtual. The next cohort will be beginning at the very end of August. We are only accepting four students, so if you’re interested, go ahead and apply at the end of this month, at schoolforthedogs.com/professionalcourse22
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