27 AugEpisode 22 | Let’s talk about SFTD’s origins with co-founder Kate Senisi
In 2011, Annie Grossman and Kate Senisi were both trying to figure out how to make a business out of dog training. They met through the Association for Professional Dog Trainers' message board, and discovered they lived a block away from one another in Manhattan. They also discovered they had complementary talents: Kate had an eye for detail, a background in graphic design, a head for organization, and a passion for dealing with aggressive dogs; Annie had an entrepreneurial spirit, writing skill, and lots of creative ideas. They decided to join forces, and together turned Annie's living room into a dog training classroom--they called it School For The Dogs.
In this episode, Annie and Kate discuss SFTD's early days and their paths to becoming dog trainers.
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Podcast Episode 22: Let’s talk about SFTD's origins with co-founder Kate Senisi
Transcript:
Annie:
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**Music**
Annie:
So I am sitting here with my- what do I even call you…
Kate: Partner in Crime?
Annie: My partner in crime. My partner, not in sexual way…
Kate: yes, I always worry about when I say.. introduce you as my partner. I clarify it with… business partner?
Annie: Business Partner. She with whom I founded School for the Dogs. Kate Senisi. The one, the only and Kate has certainly been one of the most important people in my life.
Kate: Well Thank you.
Annie: in the last decade.
Kate: And you in mine. I think we are also friends. … I’m just kidding.
Annie: Kate, do you want to be friends?
Kate: I don’t know it might interfere with our working relationship.
Annie: Laughing
Kate: Is it possible?
Annie: No, I really feel so lucky that we found each other when we did and I, so, I brought Kate on to talk about how she got into dog training and talk about some of the things that we both love about dog training. I think one thing, among many things, that we both have in common is we both get really excited about geeking out on training and I knew early on that that we were going to be friends for a long time when we were curled up on your couch drinking wine watching, like, Kathy Sdao..
Kate: Oh yeah the Tawzer days..
Annie: recorded videos of DVDs of seminars on Saturday nights together after dog training all weekend or figuring out how to become dog trainers all weekend, we would watch videos about dog training with our dogs. I remember one of those nights thinking like, “This is it. I have found a certain kind of soulmate.”
Kate: I found an equal nerd partner.
Annie: So Kate and I started working to gather pretty soon after we first met which I believe was in 2011
Kate: I think so.
Annie: And at that point we were both. We had studied dog training on our own in different ways, which we will talk about in a minute. I think we were both at the point of trying to figure out how to parlay our interest and knowledge into work. And School for the Dogs kind of was born from there. So why don’t you talk about how you got to that point. To that point where we first met at Irving Farm. Our favorite local coffee place.
Kate: Yes so I think my obsession with behavior may have started much younger than I previously thought. Recently I've been watching this show Criminal Minds, which I am sure everyone has heard of, and its actually pretty terrible but what I love about it is the behavioral profiling.
Annie: Criminal minds? I thought it was called Mindhunter?
Kate: No there are two different shows. Mindhunter is actually based on a book that I read probably back in 1995 when I was like 13 years old and I got really excited actually about studying behavior in humans, specifically serial killers, people that do things that are disturbing. And my goal at 13 was to work for the FBI and to be a behavioral profiler.
Annie: Amazing. And what’s funny is that if I had known about that too that also would want to do.
Kate: yeah, but then the more I read about it….
Annie: Or maybe become a serial killer.
Kate: Then I could study your behavior.
Annie: We would have met one way or another!
Kate: It is still fascinating to me but there is an element of that is a lot harder to not bring home with you. Although some of the work I do with dogs is also difficult in some cases where the dog has, where dog may have severe behavioral issues but not to the level of…
Annie: Just jump around in time a little in this story. Those that don’t know you might be listening don't know that you now specialize with difficult dogs.
Kate: Sort of the serial killers of the dog world.
Annie: One of the kind of amazing things I think about our partnership is that we actually found this division of labor as far as running the business together which we can maybe talk about but also division of what we’re both interested in and I think that's really suited both of us. I like to tell people that you do all the hard stuff and I do on the fun stuff. But you actually find the hard stuff fun.
Kate: And also it think helps us cover a wider range of issues as a partnership and as a group of trainers, I really love it. I wouldn’t want to work any other way. I know there are a lot of trainers out there that run their own businesses and I’m sure that's stressful but also easier in a way because you only have to deal with yourself. But the collaboration and having that group I think is really really important, especially on the days where you have a tough case or tough situation- it’s good to have people to talk to about it.
Annie: Yeah and I think the thing is that people might not realize is that whether you're working with a puppy or you're working with, let’s call it a sidewalk psycho, a dog who has real issues for instance on the street or whatever. Or a dog who just has, like, mental issues which sometimes just can happen like it does with people, you do everything right. But in either case you’re using the same building blocks as far as training goes.
Kate: Definitely.
Annie: Because it’s not like, “ Hold on. Stop everything. I need to write with a totally different set of tools, it's the same tools, you are just using in an more, not a more way, just a different way.
Kate: or you are wearing your glasses, Your puppy glasses. Or your disturbed dog glasses. Like a little bit of a filter there. As to how you would approach something.
Annie: Kinda like cooking meals in the kitchen, the kitchen doesn’t change
Kate: You were always the Queen of Analogies. YES!
Annie: One out of every five of them will stick
Kate: So just going back. That was early history. I actually wasn’t, well I guess I was interested in animals but more interested in strange human behavior at an earlier age and then I was interested in having a pet. My parents wouldn't allow me to have any furry animals so I had a snail as my first pet. Which then had babies and I brought it back to the pond because I felt guilty.
Annie: Oh gosh, poor snail. But no, you provided a home for the snail.
Kate: I had known now what, I may have even tried to communicate with the snail.
Annie: Did the snail have a name?
Kate: Yes. Victoria. Because I was victorious in getting my first pet.
Annie: Ohhh, Victoria the snail!
Kate: Yes. I mean I figured that actually I was lucky because it ended up, I guess being female because it laid eggs but I named it that before I knew the sex of the snail.
Annie: So you had a pet snail…
Kate: Then I had reptiles: iguanas. I learned a lot from them and then, fast forward to my professional life. I went to school for graphic design, I didn't really know what else I wanted to do…
Annie: Why didn’t you want to go into behavioral psychology? Or profiling?
Kate: I guess I thought. Oh yeah, I changed my mind about that. So there are a couple reasons. One: you have to actually be an agent with the FBI for like 10 years before you can even be considered for that behavioral unit although maybe that's changed. I think those were the rules when I actually looked into it. And I wasn’t sure if I actually wanted to be an agent in the field- I just wanted to study serial killers, interview them and sort of work on the profiling team. So that was one thing. And then I also just thought about my future and having a family and just things that you would read it out would be hard even for me to think about like bringing up with the family member, just so much evil out there, so many things that are mentally disturbing. I thought like how am I going to come home and talk about this to my husband or kids, though I don’t have any kids now. But something out it was just too hard for me to feel like I could compartmentalize that and not bring home it with me. Whereas with dog training even though again sometimes the cases are tough and it doesn't feel as…
Annie: Well you’re not worried someone is going to come after your children in the night
Kate: Yeah it's a little less personal. Even though they are species that live with us.
Annie: When I was trying to figure out a new career, when I was 30 and I talked about the first podcast- sitting in the dog park, writing notes to myself of what are things that I like to do. I think really the 3 top things that I thought about as careers for myself: dog training was one, becoming a makeup artist was another.
Kate: Really?
Annie: Actually, yeah. I actually recently talked to a makeup artist who told me that her.. And I did look into it at the time because I used to do face painting..
Kate: I didn’t know that.
Annie: Didn’t know this about me. Face painting at kids birthday parties throughout college.
Kate: I can see that. You are a great illustrator. It’s like illustrating on the face.
Annie: Yeah I loved doing it. It was really fun and I didn't really know what I was doing but I was teaching myself and this was like before there was the Internet so I didn't have a lot of references. But I liked doing it so maybe I could do stage makeup or something. And I looked into it a little bit at a time but there was no program that seemed like it made sense.
Kate: There were no face painting programs?
Annie: Well I wasn’t going to do face painting, I was going to do theatrical something. But anyway, I met this woman the other day who told me she went to makeup school and learn a lot but $30,000 for six months.
Kate: And was that recently?
Annie: Recently. And I thought gosh, dog training school is certainly more affordable. But my third choice of like new careers for myself if I could figure out how to do it was private eye.
Kate: Really?
Annie: Yeah I loved the idea.
Kate: Have you seen that show Bored to Death.
Annie: Yes.
Kate: It’s one of my favorite shows, I am so sad they just canceled it. That’s the first thing I think of when I think “private eye.” You’d be that hipster private eye.
Annie: Hipster private eye. Yeah, well, I think there's something in..
Kate: It’s a little bit voyeuristic too. Kind of watching other people. Observation.
Annie: But so is journalism which is what I was doing before. Talking to people, finding out their stories, finding out what motivates them, finding out, just figuring things out. I think I like just figuring things out and there is an element of that kind of detective work actually dog training that certainly scratches that itch.
Kate: Totally.
Annie: I had this one case, this was pretty early on where the dog would walk with the man not the woman and it took two or three sessions but I finally realized that they were walking the dog with different leashes and the woman was walking with this leash had a really big clasp and was like banging the dog in the face…
Kate: And the dog was probably small right?
Annie: So the clasp was like banging the dog on the face when they were walking outside. Whereas the man used a leash with a light-weight clasp and that made all the difference.
Kate: Yeah sometimes is something as simple as that. If only it was that every time.
Annie: I just got. Do you remember Gus, the French Bulldog?
Kate: I don’t think so.
Annie: I just got an email from him, I mean his humans, who I saw at the Hester Street Fair that we did a few weeks ago. And she was telling me that he started peeing in the house after the baby was born. They just had a baby. Maybe it wasn’t after the baby was born. But now that the baby is older walking around, they were pretty sure it was pegged to having, you know pegged to the baby. And I said, “try switching up his food, maybe it will help.” And they just wrote me and said that it made a huge difference.
Kate: Wow
Annie: It made me feel good.
Kate: It validated.
Annie: Its that feeling of like, ah I solved the puzzle! Right? We all like that feeling.
Well, back in time. *makes time travel music* Young Kate Senisi from Schenectady New York goes to college, becomes a graphic designer…
Kate: Yes and did that for several years, actually making a decent living. And it’s still not something I dislike.
Annie: Well also for those that don’t know. Kate does all the design for School for the Dogs and she's created all of our website. She is the reason everything looks as good as it does.
Kate: Well Thank you.
Annie: Which is a kind of person training.
Kate: So, I guess my training in branding, graphic design really actually did help me out in the end.
Annie: Seriously!
Kate: And again it wasn’t a job I disliked, it was just like just sitting at a computer all day for eight hours. The last firm I actually work for I really love, loved, still do love, an environmental design firm. It was pretty much the dream graphic design that I could have had but I just felt like..
Annie: You still have a lot of friends from there too.
Kate: Shout out to Atelier Ten if you are listening. Anyway, I got really interested in doing something different. I don’t remember making a list but I do remember at one point thinking, I think I want to do something more with animals, specifically dogs and then I sort of started thinking, what can I do professionally and I started off actually doing some dog walking for a year or two and then I was a doggy daycare handler. And all those things were interesting but not very fulfilling and I was doing them part-time, I just felt like I couldn't really make much of a difference in the dog's overall behavior.
So that’s what led me to become interested in training and then that was back when Tawzer was big. So I used to read a lot, go to a lot of conferences, watch a lot of Tawzer videos.
Annie: Explain..
Kate: So Tawzer is basically like Netflix for the dog training community. Although now I think everyone is online right?
Annie:Yes, I believe it's streaming now. It's a really, really great resource if you're into dog training you gotta get on Tawzer. They have recorded lectures and classes and I love it, Love it!
*Music*
Annie: So I wanted to chat for a quick moment about someone you and I have discussed many times and that is Cesar Milan, the Dog Whisperer. This has happened to me so I'm guessing it's happened to you that sometimes when you introduce yourself as a dog trainer people say, “Oh like the Dog Whisperer”.
Kate: Yes that has happened. That has happened many times.
Annie: Now our dear listeners might not know. We were are not big fans of the Dog Whisperer, Cesar Milan,
Kate: Yeah and maybe not even for the reasons that most people would guess.
Annie: A lot of people who don't know that dog training might just think it’s jealousy.
Kate: Yeah, possibly
Annie. Like we’re jealous..
Kate: of his success?
Annie: And I guess to some extent but not like I want to be him.
Kate: I wish that someone else maybe could gained that much popularity but actually getting like the correct information out there. That would have really improved, that would have improved..
Annie: Well, we both encountered the Dog Whisperer before we got into dog training. I think, I think you were a little bit more than devotee early on than I was.
Kate: I tried some of those methods with a foster dog way back and I saw…
Annie: Like what.
Kate: Oh, just leash corrections and I saw actually her behavior decline in the next couple of days.
Annie: How would you describe?
Kate: A leash correction is basically a sharp like pop to the leash if the dog, let’s say, looks at another dog and growls or starts pulling on the leash. It could be, it would be considered positive punishment, although I am not sure we are going to quite get into quadrants today. But adding in something that the dog or the animal doesn’t like, to make sure, to attempt to decrease the probability of that behavior happening.
Annie: But what was your first step in becoming a dog trainer, beside watching Cesar Milan.
Kate: Getting into dog walking and being a daycare handler.
Annie: And then from there.
Kate: And then from there… reading, watching videos. I don’t actually have a formal education which people might be shocked to know. I didn't do, I did apprentice with two trainers in Brooklyn but not for like probably more than like six months.
Annie: I think it is interesting to note because it;s something that is true of this profession. There is not one path to take. Every single person that works at School for the Dogs has a different route.
Kate: I'm remembering something now which is my, duh, volunteering at Animal Haven and the ASPCA. That might actually have been the first thing before I did dog walking now that I think about it.
Annie: So do you feel like you've learned mostly on the job.
Kate: Yeah, I think I've learned.. well I feel like I've also learned a lot from observing the trainers that I apprenticed with, mostly that like while I was already on the right track and it gave me confidence that I could be doing this as a job and getting paid.
Annie: So when you reached out to me….
Kate: Yeah when we first met, I think I was teaching at Petco part-time and working at Atelier Ten part-time, which was the environment design firm. And I was trying to figure out is it possible to sustain like a yearly salary doing dog training? Could I make it? Or will I just kind of have like one foot in each profession for a while, because at my design job, I had a salary, health insurance – all the things that adults usually think they need. So yeah at that point, I think I'm just looking for something, some way, to be able to do that full-time.
Annie: And you found the…
Kate: And I found the CPDT or the APDT
Annie: The Association for Professional Dog Trainers.
Kate: This trainer meet up and that’s where I met you.
Annie: Was that through the APDT site?
Kate: Through their website, yeah.
Annie: I think that must have been. I think I went to the ADPT conference in 2010 in Atlanta and that was like a big wake up moment for me as far as like..
Kate: Oh yeah I think APDT was a great one for me early on.
Annie: I think conferences are so much fun but I think they’re especially useful when you're at that point when you are trying to figure out whether you want to do something. I imagine whatever it is you want to do, if you can find a conference to go and, just like, immerse yourself..
Kate: Yeah for like eight hours a day. It’s fantastic.
Annie: Lots of other people who are doing that thing and have opinions on it, it seems so valuable to me.
Kate: And experience.
Annie: Experience. It’s stuff you can't get online.
Kate: No. And I don’t know if you can get that in any, like, condensed, I guess like apprenticeship either. Although, ours is pretty good.
Annie: Going to that conference. I mean, I have been at a lot of conferences and I have gotten a lot out of all of them but that one in particular, it felt really important.
Kate: Life-changing
Annie: Yeah it did. So I guess that's why I was then on the APDT meet-up or whatever. Well I remember you contacted me, I think, you contacted me and then I looked at your website and you had, like, the pink hair at the time. And you had photos of you working with Disco and your website well-designed, and I had like a total crush on you.
Kate: Fan girl.
Annie: I had a friend crush on you before we even met.
Kate: The truth comes out.
Annie: When it was like it was a friend crush plus like jealousy, is like she's making it as a dog trainer?
Kate: Oh, but I wasn’t.. the secrets out.
Annie: Yeah but your website was convincing.
Kate: Oh, I also fostered a ton of dogs. See this is how my memory works- the floodgates have opened. I also fostered, we must have fostered like 12 dogs over the years, Jared, my now-husband, and I. I actually, of course, learned a lot having multiple dogs in my home.
Annie: So then, we met in 2011 and you did continue at Atelier Ten for about two years.
Kate: Doing a part-time thing. And then, one day, Annie being a risk taker that she is, said, let’s just do it!”
Annie: Let’s do it!
Kate: And I don’t know what I was thinking but I actually I said yes.
Annie: I think I actually wrote out things on paper and was like, you can work this many hours and get paid this much, then you afford to quit your job.
Kate: Would you do it?
Annie: I remember kind of like proposing to you, like, would you be my business partner, kind of thing, because I think I felt like, I definitely felt like, I didn’t know how to become a dog trainer. I did not know what the first steps were to take and that I needed a buddy.
Kate: Yeah
Annie: And I also felt like we had complementary talents, you have design stuff, you have the organization stuff and..
Kate: You had creativity.
Annie: I had other stuff.
Kate: Most of the creative ideas to date have probably come from Annie.
Annie: Well and then we set up. Anyway, I remember just feeling, having this feeling of like maybe if we just approach this together because it felt so hard by myself, I felt like paralyzed. I don’t know…
Kate: ..what to do next. How to start even.
Annie: I wasn't sure how I could do a lesson. Every little bit of it felt daunting and I didn't feel like anybody was.. there was no School for the Dogs that I felt like I could go to, and hang out and meet people and watch things in New York City. I felt like it , it wasn't.. nobody had big open arms.
Kate: Also, well also what’s different there are a lot of things
Annie: I didn’t have enough experience to really like to get a job with someone else. Anyways, go ahead.
Kate: Yeah, I was going to say a lot, well I know a lot of trainers in New York City don't have physical locations and I think that's one thing that has really worked to our benefit it to actually have a physical location and have, of course, our membership, there are so many things. To have our members, to have that community there. I don’t think you can do that without a physical location.
Annie: It’s so funny.
Kate: It’s not the same.
Annie: Yeah, well we started, as you and I know, but listeners might not, in my living room, the room that we’re sitting in right now.
Kate: Which looks much different.
Annie: It looks so much, God, it’s crazy when I think about. So I have a large, for New York City, floor- through apartment and that has been in my family for a very long time and when we turned the living room into a training studio – put rubber on the floors and there were bulletin boards on the wall.
Kate: I still have some pictures of that.
Annie: Shelves of dog toys and we’ll have to dig up some photos. But I don't remember the moment where we decided to do that and I do think it probably was my crazy idea.
Kate: I bet it was.
Annie: But, in looking back, it seems like it was like such an out-of-the-box way to do things, but in a good way but also..
Kate: Well, most trainers rent out space for classes and they teach in the homes and that is pretty much all they do, because they do have a physical location.
Annie: But it made such a difference, I can't talk for you, but for me, mentally, building a business, having a physical space, somehow made all the difference. Like the way, like being able to promote, like, even though we're still going to client’s homes too. Having clients come here and work here and having a place to have play times and classes and stuff, like, having a location where we can keep our stuff and not have to bring in every time we come and not have to have be in a daycare with dogs in the other room. Like somehow, it just made things click into place. Like, what you said, kind of, like buoyed us along the way.
Kate: Definitely. I agree.
Annie: There was a short period where we were teaching at the dog day care. So after maybe year or two years into running classes out of my former living room there is a really big fire and which is when we moved into our current space but there was a period of time between when we had to leave because of the fire and when we moved into our current space, we were at a dog daycare and those were hard days.
Kate: They weren’t that hard but…
Annie: I think I overreacted, partially also like my home…
Kate: Your home was gone.
Annie: I lost my home and workplace in the fire so that was certainly part of the lull in my general mood at the time was because it really was a hard time but I found it really difficult to work out of the dog daycare just like my senses were attacked.
Kate: For me it wasn’t that bad because the first place I started teaching was that Upper East Side Petco and the training space was like a X-pen with like 4 students. So I got really good, really fast at space management.
**Music**
Annie: I recently did an episode with our trainer, Anamarie, where we were talking about classical conditioning which, I know, is one of her favorite subjects, of my favorite subjects, of your favorite subjects.I think good dog training, if you’re a good dog trainer you have to be really excited about classical conditioning. We didn't get a chance to talk about the other kind of learning which is operant conditioning. And operant conditioning is really.. what’s interesting actually classical conditioning is operant conditioning, actually all conditioning is operant conditioning- it's just you’re focusing on behavior when you are making use of operant conditioning, there is some sort of criteria for the behavior. whereas with classical conditioning the criteria is zero.
Kate: The criteria is.. the thing is there if you are doing classical conditioning.
Annie: Is the animal existing? Is the only question you’re asking with operant conditioning you're starting to ask..
Kate: Select for some behaviors or ask for some behaviors.
Annie: That is how I think of the behavior in some way or one of the differences between operant conditioning and classical conditioning. Punishment, you started talking a little bit about punishment, but just to define it for those who are not as nerdy about this is as you and I. Punishment is not some bad, big, dirty thing- punishment , by technical definition, is anything that is discouraging a behavior and reinforcement is simply the opposite, anything that is encouraging a behavior. And when we talk about positive punishment or negative punishment or positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement, we’re using the words “positive” and “negative” and in terms of addition and subtraction. So ..
Kate: Instead of good or bad.
Annie: So, I think you used the term “positive punishment” before, positive punishment means you're adding something to the equation in order to discourage or decrease behavior and you, I know , use is little punishment even in the cases, even very difficult cases, you don't use punishment but not because punishment is strictly bad.
Kate: Well..
Annie: What are some of the reasons why.. How do you explain to someone who says my dog is behaving away I don't like, therefore, I’m going to punish it. That makes sense. How you explain that away.
Kate: Well, the first question would be why is the dog behaving this way. So if it's a case of dog reactivity or stranger danger, meaning a dog is, let’s say, barking at someone to get them to go away, I want the client to understand why the dog is barking. Does that make sense? I feel like I just forgot the question actually.
Annie: Well how do you explain that we are going to approach this problem without using punishment and it’s not because we are touchy-feely happy people, we only believe in using positive reinforcement- punishment’s bad. But because there are actual problems, secondary problems that can occur.
Kate: So in addition to the side effects that punishment can cause: one which would be increased anxiety in an animal, increased stress levels..
Annie: Well, hold on, pause. What's interesting is these problems are caused through the associations which is classical conditioning
Kate: It always comes down to classical conditioning. So is the learner having a good time ? Is the learner comfortable? If stress is affecting that equation at all- why would you ever consider adding in positive punishment. The learner is already so stressed
Annie: Or even add any criteria at all.
Kate: Or even start with operant conditioning at that point, right?
Annie: If you have an animal that is stressed out which most aggressive dogs are. Right? Because aggression generally stems from fear…
Kate: Stress or arousal. l always hesitate to use the word fear because I have no idea what the animal is thinking.
Annie: Good point.
Kate: Whereas a term like stress, we have definitions for what that looks like- body language wise and arousal as well.
Annie: Good point. But if you are dealing with any animal who is in any state other than, like, basically okay and happy.
Kate: Comfortable.
Annie: That’s not an animal who's going to be doing good learning.
Kate: Right.
Annie: So you want to first work on creating like putting them in a better mental state.
Kate: So step one is if I have a stressed-out dog, we got to figure out if we do want to actually teach anything- how do we get them into that state of mind? And that’s just what you said, we gotta somehow change the emotional groundwork whether it's overall in the dog’s life, just when they're outside, just when they’re around XYZ. So starting to change that groundwork is really just trying to change the association using classical conditioning.
Annie: So what does that look like.
Kate: That would depend on the particular dog but….
Annie: Why don’t you think of an example of a dog you have worked with recently.
Kate: So one of the classes I teach is called Sidewalk Psychos and it's designed for dogs who are very uncomfortable or very agitated or a mix of both around, in the presence of, other dogs, specifically on leash. Some of them actually do a little bit better off leash. And the majority of the class is centered around classical conditioning but when the dogs are ready, we start working on operant and actually teaching behaviors, like focusing on the handler, walking nicely on a leash, impulse control exercises, waiting at doors and things like that.
So to start in class, we set up barriers so that the dog that actually can't see each other space. We’ve got calming music. I spray down the barriers with what is it called again… Rescue?
Annie: Rescue Remedy?
Kate: With Rescue which supposedly has some anti, has some calming properties. And basically to help the dogs come in and relax, the owners practice relaxation technique, a couple relaxation techniques at home where the dog is very comfortable and they associate the relaxation techniques with the mat, hopefully, which they then bring to class and then they come in, in the first maybe 15 or 20 minutes of the class is just making sure everyone is feeling good, that could be done through massage, food, a mix of both.
Annie: In Puppy Kindergarten, I say this entire series of classes all about your dog feeling good.
Kate: Yes, so classically conditioning is basically the beginning of a dog learning to feel good in the presence of other dogs. And slowly once the dogs are feeling comfortable, but until then, we start exposing them to seeing another dog when you're feeling relaxed , thought, that is the key at first and increasing the criteria a little bit as they get better. So first they’re justi in relaxed, down positions and they’re just getting the food or massages or both while the dog is present. The barrier gets closed, you can stop.
**music**
Kate: So recently, we had a dog who went through Level I, probably, I think last year, with me, Sidewalk Psychos Level 1 and then she's now back for Level II where we work outside.
Annie: Who’s the dog?
Kat: Her name is Dixie and she’s a Pit mix and she is doing amazingly well. We‘ve passed by actually dogs were not in Level II class, which sometimes can be tricky for the dogs in Level II because they’ve acclimated to the dog we’ve been walking with.
Annie: So what was going on with Dixie when you first started coming.
Kate: So she was, she has a little bit of a not- great off-leash history with dogs but on leash she was like just spinning into a frenzy whenever she would see a dog. So barking. In Level II, what we have started to do with her is, obviously, fade the use of treats a little bit so she's kind of just walking occasionally checking in, getting praise, from her mom and, occasionally, getting paid to maintain the eye contact..
Annie: Paid with food?
Kate: ..with food. And we work on being in closer proximity to other dogs and actually, with her, we’re now working on her greeting behavior. So some dogs get in trouble when they don't offer what are called appeasement signals, in the body language world, so if you see two dogs start to greet usually what that looks like it is head-to-head for a second and then head to butt, head to rear. But sometimes with certain dogs they can get stuck with the facial, at the nose sniff or the face sniff and if they haven’t made eye contact and neither dog offers what's known as an appeasement behavior that's usually where you will see an escalation in like either a fight or just ritualized aggression.. which is aggression without actually biting.. noise.
Annie: It’s interesting that if you watch for it and you see two dogs greeting nicely, a nice greeting is always the same. A nice greeting is always face-to-face and then to butt, but it's funny because we tend to say that dogs don’t do great head-to-head.
Kate: But they usually start that way. The trick is that they don’t get stuck at the face. And unfortunately when a dog is on a leash that can be something that they might learn early on that they are stuck on the leash and they may actually greet more appropriately off the leash but on the leash they may have developed a different routine or different ritual and maybe that is what getting them into trouble.
Annie: I explain it to people like you had to learn how to meet people for the first time in a straitjacket.
Kate: Yeah.
Annie: With someone like holding the end of your straitjacket
Kate: And having very little control over controlling the distance.
Annie: Yeah I think that’s why a lot of dog issues on leash because they can't they can't control where they’re physically spending that moment.
Kate: And talking about classical conditioning. What’s their association with seeing another dog
Annie: I get yanked.
Kate:They become extremely frustrated and agitated.
Annie: And because they can't seek distance, you know, bark, lunge, bite becomes their go to move.
Kate: The goal of the Sidewalk Psychos course is instead of a dog instantly seeing or perceiving that a dog nearby and feeling agitated and frustrated, they feel, they actually want to get closer to the dog, maybe at some point.
Annie: You have helped so many dogs and owners, I can’t even. I mean especially in Sidewalk Psychos, I mean beyond Sidewalk Psychos too.
Kate: I love that class. I wish I could add more classes, they’re all full. And no one else, I don’t think classes like that in New York. And I have people all the time saying, “ I'm so thankful you have thi class because I really couldn't take my dog to any other group class.” I mean they just wouldn’t be able to learn. There really is something helpful about the eight weeks of being around other dogs and feeling safe, occasionally we have a few reactions in the class, but the difference there is that: number one the dog doesn't go anywhere and we help sort of calm down in that now controlled setting. It’s not like the dog reacts and it goes away or comes closer but just being around dogs for that amount of time and, again, feeling safe really helps change their association, in a way, that I think sometimes private sessions for dog reactivity can’t.
Annie: Powerful stuff. Kate, I think you're the greatest and I’m so,so glad that we found each other.
Kate: I am so happy we are partners.
Annie: I am so happy that we are partners, it's been just such a great partnership. I’m going to get teary.
Kate: it’s a great balance.
Annie: it is and it;s everything and it's wonderful.
Kate: Thank you.
Annie: I'm sure you'll be on this podcast again soon. Thank you.
Kate: Thanks.
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Our Woof Shout today must go to: Kate’s dog Disco. Disco was rescued by Kate and her husband Jared, from the New York Animal Care and Control. They fostered him at first but then fell in love with him and kept him. And you cannot not fall in love with this dog. He is black and white pitbull with a tremendous underbite and just the sweetest personality. And my little dog, my little Yorkiepoo, Amos, who is 13 and does not like all other dogs loves Disco and they make out, like full on make out when they can see each other and it is quite adorable.
Fun Dog Fact of the Day: Did you know that Pit Bulls are not an actual breed, it’ just kind of an umbrella term that refers to dogs who are, kind of look like pit bulls, whatever that means. American Pit Bull Terriers get labeled pit bulls as well as do American Staffordshire Terriers as do Bull Terriers but so do many mixed breed dogs and dogs who just have that squarish head. Which is why I think it's so crazy that there are couple bans in cities around the country because it really is banning a dog purely based on their looks..
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Huge thank you to those of you who have signed up to give a monthly contribution to this podcast through Anchor, our hosting service. You can do so at anchor.fm/dogs. Really really appreciate it. You can sign up to get $0.99, $4.99 or $9.99 a month and it certainly helps produce this podcast.
Thank you to Lloyd Davis for his version of Sister Kate. And as always to Alix Kriss for producing this podcast.
Another way you can support this podcast and also help organize your own life is signing up for Sanebox which sponsored this episode. You can get a two-week free trial and $15 off if you go to schoolforthdogs.com/sane. I have used Sanebox for years to organize my email. My latest trick is, you know, I don’t know if you guys do this, but I do it -I email myself all the time like things that I need to do so half of the emails in my inbox are both to and from me but one that you can do in Sanebox that's really helpful is email your future self so I can I send email through the Sanebox really easily right in my Gmail account to myself in a week or in a month for things that I know I'm going to have to deal but don’t have to deal with right way and that really helps me clear out my inbox but also makes sure that stay on top of things I need to stay on top of which is certainly helpful.
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