12 FebEpisode 41 | New “Diggs” for your dog: Zel Crampton’s dog crate revolution
We use dog crates every day at School For The Dogs. They're an integral part of dog training: We recommend them to clients who are house training puppies, incorporate them into class exercises, and transport dogs in them. And yet, all of us who work at our training center agree: Crates... kind of suck! They're clunky and ugly! Noisy! Storing them is a pain, and when you have to open and then collapse them all day long (like we do), you're going to suffer pinched fingers. It has long seemed like a problem with no solution, but Zel Crampton might just be our white night. Crampton is the founder of Diggs, a product development company whose flagship item, the Revol, is a crate that just might change everything... In this episode, he and Annie talk about the problem with crates, and the "revolution" that he foresees.
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Transcript:
Annie:
So I am here with Zel Crampton, founder of Diggs. Is that how you call the company or is it Diggs pet products?
Zell:
Just Diggs.
Annie:
And I wanted to talk to Zel today because he has a product that is innovative in a bunch of ways, which we will talk about, but I think interesting to me in part because it's really like the only innovative thing in the world and the world is crates. At School for the Dogs we have maybe a dozen crates. They're really important. We use them every day, all the time. And nobody likes them. I would say these crates have no fans, but they're clunky. They hurt your fingers when you have to close them and open them all the time, which we do everyday, all day. They're noisy, they fall over, they, they're ugly. But they're totally necessary. Like we couldn't live without them. And yet I don't think anybody who works at School for the Dogs would have any nice things to say about any of them. And what you're doing in the world of crates is, it gives me hope that there is a future that could be better for this product. But I know Diggs has two products and why don't you tell us about those two products and then we can talk about how you got into this world.
Zel:
Sure. So our flagship product is the Diggs Revol dog crate. As you just rightfully said, crates are ugly, hard to use, unsafe, noisy, hard to collapse, hard to transport. Frankly, they're an abysmal product, when you consider other consumer categories, like they just haven't been changed in 50 years. They're just the same old ugly wire thing that for some reason never got, never innovated.
Annie:
Why?
Zel:
I'll give you my opinion. I don't know for a fact, but I actually think that the history of the pet industry is really that, you know, pets used to be property, right? And they're legally speaking, they are still property, but people used to view the pets as their property, right? I'm a dog owner. Right.
Annie:
Or a master? That's what my dad used to call himself, growing up. He was the art dog's master.
Zel:
Right.
Annie:
And it seems so like dated to me.
Zel:
Of course. I mean you can, you can think of like in some ways the dog that today is your master, you know.
Annie:
Who picks up who’s poop, right?
Zel:
Right, exactly. And I think Seinfeld had a funny joke once saying that if aliens came down from space and like, look at this and they'd assume the dogs are in charge. But my point is that when dogs truly were property, not just from a legal standpoint, but also from how we viewed them, it was all about cheap, low quality, right? So you had companies who said, okay, let's make this as cheaply as possible. Who can get it the cheapest from China, who can make the lowest quality product that's just gonna like meet the bar of what's required and that, you know, most pet products are made that way.
And then you can argue if it's the last 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, but in recent history, pets have totally changed the way…we see pets totally differently. And it's not just a US phenomenon by the way. It's almost a global phenomenon, where pets are now treated, if not as well in some ways equal or better to than our children. And so what, what comes with that is a much higher expectation of what a product can and should be specific, particularly for something we care about so much. But now you're asking all these old school companies who've been making the same crummy products for like a long time to innovate and try something totally different there and they're just not built for that. Right. And so it takes someone to kind of like say, okay, we're going to try this differently. And you know, it's a complicated product because it's a safety product first and foremost, and it's expensive to make and it requires a global supply chain and so on and so forth. So I think it's just, it's now the time when people are looking for that product enough that it's worthwhile to invest and take those risks.
Annie:
So of the two products that you are making right now, there's the crate and the bed. So tell me what makes these two products different.
Zel:
Sure. So the crate is, solves the key pain points we're just talking about. So it's much better looking. We actually took a lot of cues from premium baby products, so things like rounded edges, high quality aluminum and reinforced plastics. It just gives an air of like what you would associate with your real child, your baby.
You see these fancy strollers. Like, you know, we live, we're in New York city right now, kind of going all over the place. So we actually partnered with a baby product manufacturer who can recreate some of those aesthetics and quality.
Annie:
Wow. Interesting.
Zel:
Yeah. So we're the only pet company who's making products at a baby factory. So it's literally the same products that you trust, like to put your baby in a car seat-that's where our crates are made.
Annie:
Hmm. Okay.
Zel:
Which brings me to my second point around safety. So crates, as you alluded to, have all kinds of safety issues right, from, you know, with just the simple stuff like pinching your fingers and, you know, paws getting pinched.
Annie:
Tell me about it.
Zel:
Yeah. But there are real safety concerns. Things like because they're not structural, they're so flimsy. There've been some horrible stories where you have the dog in the crate and kids playing around at home. Kids jump on top of the crate, you know….So we worked with the, you know, we got advice from the Center for Pet Safety on kind of all those issues that we need to solve. And so for example, our crate is much more structural, right? It can hold the weight of an adult sitting on top of it, right? So we solved that problem.
Or paws and jaws tend to get caught, can get caught, I mean to say in those typical vertical holes and bars, because very anxious dogs might try and force their paw through or their jaw and they haven't been known to, you know, break a nail or break a tooth or get their paw stuck. So we changed the shape of the openings so that paws and Johns can go freely in and out without getting caught. And so we've done like extensive testing to make sure with, with like fake paws, that paws won't get stuck.
The third thing is ergonomics, right? We talked about, like, you know, fingers getting caught, but just trying to open the crate, those fiddly latches are kind of a pain for us to use. But dogs again, learn how to open them, right? So we said, okay, let's make this one handed and impossible for a dog to open. Or let's make you know your life easier with things like when you're crate training and you gotta calm your dog in the process of crate training or treat or feed them, you have to open the door and they want to squirm them right out. So let's make it, the ceiling opens, that you can pet them and put a treat inside and they can't squirm out.
So we thought about all the kind of different use cases from puppy to adulthood and how it's used differently and,you know, try to make things much simpler and easier for you to use. So we have all kinds of features for those kinds of things.
And the last but not least is what we call just collapsibility and transportability. If you've ever tried to collapse and move a wire crate around, it's a whole, you know, it takes two people and six arms and you know, that's lucky if you can not pinch yourself doing it. So we had this revolutionary thing where all you do is turn a handle on the ceiling and it just collapses into itself and can either roll away or be carried like a suitcase.
Annie:
It's also nice that it looks nice. It's not like an awful thing. There used to be a crate, it's called the EO crate or the IO crate. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Zel:
I don’t
Annie:
It looked like a dome..
Zel:
Oh yeah, I’ve seen that style.
Annie:
And it was the only nice looking crate I think that I'd ever seen, but I think it was like $1,200 or something like that, I'm not sure if they still make it. But I've had clients who've said, well, I don't want to use a crate because I don't like how they look and I don't want that in my apartment. Which is, I don't know, it's a hard thing to argue with because yeah, they are ugly. But I think, you know, they're, they're often very necessary. And the other thing I like about your crate is that it's open because, you know, I guess they're sort of three styles of crates that I see most often.
It's the open wire ones, which is what we use at School for the Dogs and what I generally recommend because my feeling about crates is that a dog should feel like they're still part of their environment. I don't want the dog to feel like they're secluded in a completely separate area. I want them to feel contained, but still a part of everything that's going on most of the time. Some dogs, you know, like feeling secluded and you can always throw a blanket over it.
Then there crates that are, um, I don't know what the term is, like with plastic sides.
Zel:
They’re often called plastic carriers often used for transport, actually less for home use.
Annie:
It's like what I used to have for my cat, like a cat carrier. But yeah, a lot of people do use them for home use and those can't, those are very hard to collapse and hard to clean. And I don't have lots of great feelings about those, although maybe if you're transporting a dog, that's the better way to go.
And then there's the fabric ones, which, also I think are hard to clean and, and sort of make the dog feel like they're separated from everything else. But yeah, I think what's cool about yours is that it's not like the biggest eyesore to have in your home.
Zel:
Sure. And look, I mean, just going into the whole kind of debate between open and airy versus kind of closed. And the truth is so going and the whole need for crates in the first place -ens come from wolves originally and wolves are den animals. So dogs naturally feel more comfortable in smaller, darker, confined spaces, which is, you know, one of the reasons that when crate trains, dogs tend to love their crate, they feel safer, calmer.
Annie:
And you can always throw a blanket over it or put it in the closet, but you can't, you know, take the plastic off of one of those plastic carriers.
Zel:
Exactly. So there's two reasons to go open and airy first. One is exactly what you said, right, you can't make something that's already closed unclosed right? But you can do the opposite, right? So we're actually developing a crate cover in case you do want to make it closed.
Annie:
Cool.
Zel:
But the other reason is dogs, particularly in warmer climates, can overheat in those other ones. And that's a huge problem for dogs. They don't have as efficient a cooling system as we do. And so it's really important for airflow for comfort that dogs have, especially ones that have like thick coats or whatever, to have that air. If they don't, they can overheat and it's very dangerous to them.
Annie:
And what about the bed? What, what, what makes the bed different?
Zel:
Yeah, so our bed is, first of all is designed to go in the crate. So our crates a unique shape, so that, you know, that's one piece. But the bigger thing is, so it's fully washable, very soft, luxurious, you know, outside waterproof. But the big differentiators, we're the only pet company that I know of that uses was called “Serta-pure US memory foam”. Um, Serta-pure US memory foam is typically found in the most premium of mattresses, usually baby mattresses, because it's certified free of formaldehydes, heavy metals, ozone depleters and all kinds of other nasty stuff.
And the reason we brought that to the pet industry is that, you know, if we feel like we want to keep our baby around a more pure, higher quality product, wouldn't we want the same for our pet, right? There's no such thing as a truly chew-proof bed. Like some dogs will get through if they really want to chew on a bed and then get through to the foam, so we took… we had the opinion that if that's the case, then at least let's make the product as benign as possible because traditional foams…
Annie:
As edible as possible.
Zel:
Well, yeah, I don't want to say edible, but at least you're not going to be exposing your dog to like mercury and lead, which is like what you find in the cheap foams that are usually used in dog mattresses, ‘cause again, going back to what I said earlier, the pet industry is historically all about low cost. And so we know that even in human foam like that is not certified we find those things so… and we get the cheapest stuff that goes in the dog beds. So we've tried to elevate that.
Annie:
Gosh, it, I mean, I've talked about this before on the podcast, but it's such a pet peeve of mine when you read articles about things people do for their dogs. And the first paragraph is always like, you know, Betsy slept on a mattress made out of X fancy material and then went to the hairdresser. Betsy is a dog. Like I feel like there's this attitude of, gosh, I was just reading an article like this the other day. Oh,, it was an article in the New York Times about people bringing their dogs on hikes…or not bringing their dogs, paying companies that will take your dog hiking, which actually seemed relatively reasonably priced. And I thought about like everything that's involved that takes someone else's dog hiking: the liability, the transport, et cetera. But it was talking about how..
Zel:
It's dog walking on steroids.
Annie:
Right, right. But the tone of the story was how, you know, clearly this is spoiling dogs as if it's like, it's more than they deserve, but it's like who sets the line of, like what an animal deserves, you know? It's just like a general, I dunno, it's like a pet peeve of mine to this notion that spending money on dogs or giving nice things to dogs is indulgent and ridiculous because it's like, think about the money people spend on their cars or on their kitchens or on tons of things that benefit no one except for themselves. And it's like, yeah, maybe your dog doesn't need this, but your dog also doesn't, you know, I don't know why, it's not, we don't bring animals into our lives for like subsistence living for them. Right?
Zel:
Yeah. Most dogs are no longer working dogs right? You know, the thing about dogs, which is what and pets in general, but you know, we’re talking about dogs here, is that it's really one of the few things in life that is all about pure joy, right? You don't get a dog for like, with exception, a few working dogs or you know, seeing eye dogs or those kinds of things. 99% of people get dogs just for the pure joy and companionship. And if you get joy out of spoiling your dog, then have at it.
Annie:
Right? Yeah, I'm totally, I totally feel the same way. If that helps you feel love and feel good and you're benefiting if your dog benefits from this, then like you know your car, your car is not benefiting from the love that you give your car
Zel:
No, from a truly kind of like altruistic standpoint. I mean, you're better off spoiling a dog than a car
Annie:
Right, exactly. And I mean to me that's so much of what good dog training is about. It's about developing a way to live with your dog that's going to make both of you feel good. I mean, nobody gets a dog and then hopes that they're going to be, you know, running around after the dog yelling, “No.”
Zel:
Well, you bring up a good point. I mean, the only caveat to what we're talking about is I think making…so dogs are basically put in a place where they are taken out of the dog world and forced to live in the human world and they've been doing them thousands of years and you know, they're, it sounds terrible, but they're bred for that right they’re comfortable.
Annie:
Yeah.
Zel:
However they have to learn to live in a human world and dogs that are not either trained or put in position…given the, you know, the guidance they need, right, whether it's structure, whether it's understanding what's their space, not their space, those kinds of things. Which feels a little bit like reprimanding to some new dog, you know, new pet parents and stuff like that is actually making the dog happier cause they're learning what the boundaries are and what, you know, makes the pet parent happy. And it also makes them feel like they're doing the right thing. And so it brings their energy down.
Annie:
And a crate is a big part of that. I think, you know, I think a lot of people misunderstand. Positive reinforcement as about being like permissive of everything and, you know, ignoring bad things and praising good things. To me, that's not what it's about at all, it's about creating structure where you're not going to get the bad stuff, you're not going to get behaviors you don't like to begin with because, you know, we control so much about our dog's lives that it's possible to physically control their space and time and energy in such a way that, that you're only going to get behaviors you like, which you then can positively reinforce, etc etc. And I think a crate is a big part of that because, yeah, like we can physically control where they're spending their time and if you know where you're spending your dog spending their time, you can, you know, have a better idea of what they're doing and give them good stuff in the crate.
Zel:
Yeah. And the dog just learns to say, okay, this is my space. This is the, you know, what I'm allowed to do, not allowed to do and that actually makes them feel calmer. So I like to make the distinction between training and obedient…
Annie:
Management?
Zel:
Or training and obedience versus kind of mindset and energy, right? If you want your dog to sit or rollover or jump up or not jump up, that's training. You're just getting them to react to kind of our commands.
Annie:
Okay.
Zel:
Versus if you teach your dog how to feel calm and comfortable in an environment or have tricks to show that you're in charge, they don't have to worry about being in charge or things like that, that brings their energy down and they're more comfortable and they're happier dogs.
Annie:
See, I would say that the divide between operant conditioning and classical conditioning. Operant conditioning being like, you want your dog to do X, Y, or Z when you say X, Y, or Z. It's about, you know, how they behave and it's the consequences that are, are of consequence. Whereas learning by association aka classical conditioning, that's all about helping your dog feel comfortable, feel like I don't have to worry. Feel, you know, not fearful and have a good experience just existing, you know, which doesn't necessarily have to do with them following your commands or anything like that. It's just a way of them feeling good about the world around them.
But my husband jokes that when he met me, he learned the difference between a trained dog and an obedient dog because he says our dog is well trained, but he's not necessarily obedient in that like he doesn't necessarily obey every single thing I say all the time. But you know, in a larger picture is he well-trained? Yeah. He's very well trained, but he can also, you know, make choices for, for himself.
What are some of the challenges of actually developing a product like this? It seems like, I wouldn't know where to begin. Yo do have a background then in engineering, is that right?
Zel:
Yeah, I did my undergrad in mechanical engineering.
Annie:
Where did you start?
Zel:
There’s a lot of it. You know, one thing I'll say is that I didn't realize how hard it was to bring a physical product to market that actually works. So that's why it took two years. But, I mean, look, we had to first figure out, okay, we knew we had this idea that crates kind of are awful, spoke to some people. Everyone kind of agrees. Everything on the market's the same. So what are we missing here? Right? Like the question you asked earlier was why has no one done something different here in this space or materially different anyway. We had to figure that out. And so we had to do a whole lot of customer research. So that's where we started. We start doing surveys and you know, talking to people at the parks and doing in-home interviews, like ethnographic-style interviews where we went to people's homes and just said like, why is your crate like this? Or how did you use it? Or why does that thing on top of it? Just just to kind of get a feel for how people actually use it, what the issues are.
And then that research took a good few months and then we kind of start to develop like, okay, here's what we really want to solve. Here are the pain points, the design criteria. And then we had to go find what's called an industrial designer, which basically is someone who's like an artist but for product design. And so they conceive of like how do the human and the pet interact with the product and how does that address those design points I was making. So we found.. we did a big search around the country, we ended up finding a great partner in Boston called The Levin that helped us with the design.
From there, once you kind of get these concepts like these almost like artistic concepts, then go into true engineering where you need engineering help to kind of make the mechanisms work and choose the materials and all that stuff. And then from there you have to find manufacturers. And then, you know, we had…that was a big process. We, you know, we tried to get manufactured in the US, we couldn't. We tried to get manufactured in Canada, we couldn't. Tried Mexico, we couldn't. Finally ended up going to China where we found luckily phenomenal manufacturers, I mentioned earlier that a premium baby products manufacturer out there. And you know, once you get that set up, then you've got to prototype, a prototype, prototype, prototype and then eventually, you know, two years later you have product.
Annie:
And at what point did you your Kickstarter then?
Zel:
We did our Kickstarter in April 2018. So that was when we actually were ready to go to manufacturing. We'd done everything. All we needed to do was get a little bit more money and make sure we kind of proved everything out. But we had done, you know, a year and a half of research, design, development. The supply chain was ready to go. The brand was ready to go. We just needed to make sure that one, the market existed for it. And two, that we could raise a bit more money to, you know, get us through the production process.
Annie:
So was part of the Kickstarter to sort of make sure that there was enough interest out there. I guess the answer was yes, because you exceeded your goal by a lot, right?
Zel:
We did. Yeah. We set up to raise 30,000. We raised 86,000. But what's cool about that is, you know, when crate sizes, as everyone knows, there's different size dogs and most crate companies would have anywhere from four to six sizes typically. We only had the small size. And just with that one size alone, we did, you know, a really big campaign. So we, you know, that told us that it was okay, there's this demand for this and we can not only do it for this product this size, but we can scale it to different sizes as well. Um, cause we've learned a lot from just customers reaching out to us every day. And we get that still every day, you know, when are the larger sizes coming.
Annie:
So when are the larger sizes is coming?
Zel:
Yeah. We're excited. The medium size for dogs, so the small size is for dogs under 30 pounds. The medium size for dogs at 50 pounds is scheduled for product in market June, July. We're going to be starting preorders though, end of this month, early March.
Annie:
And what are the retail costs of the different crates?
Zel:
The different sizes? So the small size is $224.99. The medium-we haven't set a final price, but we'll be in the low three hundreds, probably. The large-we don't have a price for that yet, but it's gonna depend on the kind of like a final costing and that just takes time to get to.
Annie:
And are you finding people are willing to spend that much on a crate?
Zel:
Yeah. What's interesting was, you know, we.. the key things to remember is that crate is one cost among many about having a pet, right? And the kind of customer we're going after that we're targeting are the customers who you described earlier who just want to spoil that pet and care a lot. And when you think about going to a vet visit, one vet visit, right, and the first year you have what, five visits typically, something like that, a vet visit is $150, right?
Annie:
Right.
Zel:
If you're, again, our customer, you're buying a premium dog food, right? And one 24 pound bag of premium dog food, nevermind even like the newer human grade stuff, but like even just traditional kibble is like $80 a bag that last six weeks.
Annie:
So in the scheme of things…
Zel:
…it's not that much.
Annie:
Right. Well and I tell my clients, you know, if you're gonna invest in things that are expensive for your dog, you're better off investing in, like, if you have a small dog, like a good bag. You know, I would say like a good crate or something like that, …
Zel:
You’re going to have it for the life of the dog.
Annie:
You know, as opposed to like an expensive leash or an expensive sweater. You know what I mean? Like those things, you know, sure, if you feel like spending money, if you feel like spending $200 on a sweater, go for it
Zel:
But, you know, it’s one of those products you need is for most pet owners. Right?
Annie:
Right. And it’s a onetime cost.
Zel:
It is. And it's like anything, right? There's a reason there's, you know, Toyota and there's Lexus. There's Ford and Mercedes. You know, there's just different markets and we're not saying it's our products for everybody, but all that exists today is the cheap wire crate. Right. That's really all that exists.
Annie:
Are there other companies that are, that are doing innovative crates that you look at?
Zel:
Absolutely. So I think one company that I find really interesting is a company called Gunner kennels, they're even more expensive. They're small is $350, but they're targeting a different kind of consumer. So we're targeting…
Annie:
And what's interesting about their crate,
Zel:
It's, you know, really indestructible. And they've created just a nice brand. There's a nice story around like the testing they've done around it and, you know, the use case, which they're targeting hunters and outdoors people. So think like throwing a crate on the back of your pickup truck and going hunting and you, you know, that you feel like confident that your dog is safe and the dog has never getting out no matter what. That's their, that's who they're targeting.
Annie:
Right. Your’s is more for the, like a New York city studio apartment Maltese.
Zel:
Exactly. You know, we're targeting, you know, folks in bigger cities or really people who are, you know, your average dog owner, but care about their dog in a different way, right? And care to have something, like you were talking about, a lot of folks that you speak to about crates don't want crates cause it's ugly and where they are, right? We want, we're targeting those.
Funny enough, that's who we designed this crate for and that's certainly who the majority of our customers are. But we're also getting a really warm reception from folks in the show dog and kind of trick dog world, you know, the agility dogs and reason being that they, they.. by rules, they have to use crates at all their competitions and everywhere they go. So they're constantly lugging around these awful crates and they're heavy and they're hard to move around and so they're very hard to collapse. So they've been really excited about our collapse, like, our collapsing function. So yeah, I didn't even think of that, but we've had this whole success, like we actually had a booth at the American Kennel Club national championship in Orlando in December. Our reception was phenomenal. So we're really excited about those customers as well.
Annie:
Any Westminster dogs that are going to be using your crates? Do you know?
Zel:
Its funny, we were thinking about, we were talking about partnering with one of the top Pomeranians. And we tried to get a booth at Westminster, but there's a multiyear waiting list we found out, so hopefully next year.
Annie:
Um, wasn't there another crate company on Kickstarter right around when you guys had your Kickstarter? Am I misremembering?
Zel:
No, that’s a very good memory. Yeah. There was a company called….
Annie:
….I don’t remember what it was called.
Zel:
It was called Chasing Monkey at the time. I believe they changed their name and their product was called PAWD. I'm not sure if they call it “pod” or “pod-d” or something like that. Um, yeah, they were, what's interesting was they had identified a lot of the same problems that we had and in terms of like, you know, all the pain points were regular crates. They took a different approach though. Their product is really geared towards toy breeds from what I can tell. And it's geared towards, like it's just panels of plastic for assembly. I've never used it,
Annie:
Panels of plastic?
Zel:
So think of it like you, you like a plastic carrier that you assemble.
Annie:
Okay. So rather than collapsing like pieces together?
Zel:
Correct. It doesn't look like, again, I don't want to be negative cause I've never used it, seen it tested, whatever, it just strikes me as more of, it's not very structural. Right. So it's not meant for most, you know, dogs that do need containment, but I don't know. I've never seen it.
Annie:
So I know your goal is to develop more products, is that correct? Can you give us a window into what the future holds?
Zel:
Sure. So let me give you sort of the context first and then I'll get into the future question. When we started to look at the dog crate, which was the original idea, because I tried to get a dog crate for my most recent dog and couldn't stand and whatever, we actually realized that the same problem we see in dog crates is actually true of many pet supplies like gates and stroller, pet strollers and bowls- they're all very similar and haven't innovated in a very long time. So what we realize is, what will be really exciting for us is to create an innovative brand in pet supplies where what we're trying to do every time is bring something new and fresh to the table. Like we won't release something unless it's, it's somehow game-changing or somehow different. So, you know, we're going to be focused on-certainly bigger sizes for the crate, that's obvious. A lot of accessories for the crate that we want to build out. So this year we're going to do a bowl. We're going to have a crate cover and I can't give the details yet, but I can tell you both those things are pretty unique and innovative in what we're bringing there. We're going to have like …we get a lot of requests for, like, a case to travel with so you can bring your crate with you. But we're also going to do eventually some really cool like maybe tech products like a camera in the crate. So when you're leaving your dog at home you can watch your dog in the crate. We're also doing a toy line or also,you know, early stages of a stroller and all kinds of cool products where we're really trying to change the game a little bit.
Annie:
What I'm struck by in the pet product world is what seems to me like an overabundance of products that are… offer unnecessary amounts of tracking I guess is, is like when I met you a few months ago at this product showcase. I guess it was like digital pet product showcase that was held that I stopped by and I think that's when I first saw your crates. But I was kind of impressed by your crates and your company and that you were the, you seemed like the only business there that wasn't offering something that was needlessly Bluetooth enabled. Like everything, there was like a bed that weighed your dog and alerted you if your dog gained or lost weight or a food bowl that measured exactly what your dog ate or,God, I don't even remember, you know, the various kinds of treat dispensers, food dispensers, vacuums that, I don't know, talk to your dog, but balls that you calculated, how many times your dog caught it.
And it seemed like nuttiness to me. Like how much do we really need to be monitoring all of these things. Like if my dog gains weight, I think I can just tell rather than having a bed that's measuring it. So people are obsessed with tracking their own, you know, their sleep, their food, their, their weight and whatever. And like is there a real reason to be extending this to dogs or is it just like a lack of creativity of trying to figure out new ways to innovate old products other than it adding this wireless capability to it?
What's your take on this direction? I hope you're not going to be like, well that's our plan too.
Zel:
No,
Annie:
And be like screw you Annie.
Zel:
But look, I mean there's no question we're in an age where digitization of everything around us is happening and it's going to happen, right?
Annie:
Yeah. And I think there are instances where it's useful and cool.
Zel:
But, sure. And I mentioned the camera for like crate because if you look at it like people actually do use safety cameras and baby monitors and all that kind of stuff.
Annie:
Sure, yeah no problem with that.
Zel:
What you're referring to though is the people who are, or the companies that are coming out that are just like seem to be putting on some sort of accelerometer or some sort of Bluetooth like you said, just for the sake of it. And I think there is a feeling that if you bring anything like that to market that you know people are just going to kind of get excited about, Oh it's cool, it's new, it's innovativ. And there are going to be some stuff that hit But I think for every kind of thing, you know, product like the Whistle GPS collar that did really well and was bought by Mars, there’s going to be, you know, nine failures just because they're not truly valuable.
I think our perspective is you have to start with the problem. What is it you're actually trying to solve for the customer? And if you start with something, if you start with the premise like, “Oh this is cool,” versus “Oh I'm solving a problem,” I think you're going to run into this hole,” I'm going to make this thing cause it's cool and maybe someone will buy it” but most people won't because it's not really addressing any issue. And then if you go through route on the solving a problem, you're saying, you know, talking about overweight dogs. Well I want to know if my dog is overweight. Is that a truly a problem? I guess the research, I have to say I'm not an expert in that, but, let's say for argument's sake, it is a problem that you need to solve. Then the next question is, is data technology, etc, the best way to solve that, when you think about costs, complexity, etc, or is there a simpler, better, faster solution that would actually address the problem you're trying to solve? And so I think that technology plays a very good role in solving those problems when it's applied and used in a very thoughtful manner.
Annie:
It's funny. So I'm going to give you my two product ideas and you can, you can run with them.
Zel:
I'll give you credit.
Annie:
One is a vibrating collar. A collar that like you can press the button and the color just vibrates. It doesn't have, like, any kind of a shock component because there are shock collars that have a vibrating function, but I haven't found one that just has vibrating and doesn't offer shock as an option. Because, vibration, nothing that would hurt a dog at all, but just like a small vibration, could be used as like a marker in the same way that we use a clicker to like pinpoint when a dog does something you want the dog to do. And I think that could be useful for a lot dogs, but specifically for deaf dogs.I think it could also be a really great way to teach a recall to teach the dog, Oh, when I feel this vibration, I have to, you know, go back to go back to my human. So that's one.
The other is a product that I have seen a lot of companies try to do something with, which is a really good treat dispenser. We use at School for the Dogs this treat dispenser made by Pet Safe that's been on the market for a long time called the Treat and Train, I don't know. Are you familiar with the Treat and Train?
Zel:
Maybe not the brand name, but I know Pet Safe well and I've seen their treat dispensers, but I'm not sure of that one is.
Annie:
It operates on radio waves.It has like three or four channels that you can use and it's a really sturdy, really dependable. You can use a lot of different kinds of hard, hard treats in it. I think it's a really great product, but it's not Bluetooth enabled. It's not wireless enabled. It doesn't have a camera on it, which I think is kind of fine like it for what it is. It's excellent. ButI've seen so many other, companies in the last four or five years come out with treat dispensers that have all kinds of bells and whistles and just don't work as well as this sort of like basic device. Including one that we got to try at the studio, I think it's called the Petzi-actually that was also that pet product, a digital thing.
Zel:
Yeah, its a big category, Furbo..
Annie:
Right. And I've tried a lot of them, each of them has a problem. Like there is one, I think maybe the I-bo, Furbo that like can only hold like 12 treats or something. So then like you're done. Or the Pezi was the one though that was kind of, it was a problem in kind of a hilarious way. Where it worked pretty well, but rather than just like dispensing one treat, which is what's so nice about the Treat and Train or like two treats or like couple of little pieces of kibble. It like shot out like 15 pieces, like bullets. And so the dogs would just totally freak out every time the thing went off. And I remember when we got it, it was, it came, I think we got like a free one to test and they sent it to us a bunch along with a whole bunch of Milk Bones, which all of us trainers opening it up thought it was funny.
And it's not because like a milk bone is like a bad thing. It's not like the quality of the Milk Bone that's the problem. It's just trainers like to give really small treats and you can't break up a Milk Bone. So we were like, Oh, this certainly wasn't developed by a trainer. A trainer, wouldn't have, you know, suggested using a Milk-Bone in training.
Anyway, so I wish there was a product that was like the Treat and Train that like just like would dispense one or two treats at a time that you could use like from your phone, maybe that had a camera so you could, you know, do it while you were at work, I think that would be a cool feature. But something that's that dependable. Where it seems like all those, like you said, it's a big category, but most of that category looks like it's about people who want to like see what their dog is doing and give it a treat as kind of like a novelty, you know..
Zel:
So like that's a secondary function versus you’re talking about like the treat dispensing being the primary function.
Annie:
I think you could actually, like I could use a Treat and Train with a camera from the hallway and actually train a dog to do something, like without being in the room, if I could see what the dog was doing. I mean I could train the dog to go to its bed. I could train the dog to sit. But yeah, that's not the primary purpose of any of the dispensers that are out there. Like there's another one that I saw that dispenses like a huge cookie. Like, well, what's the use of that if you're actually trying to train? You know. I get it as sort of a cute thing, like, look, I gave my dog a cookie. Or that there's ones where your dog can see your face on like a camera. Like I don't think your dog cares at all about seeing your face when you’re not there. Or there's one that like sprays a scent even it's like they've thought of every different way of making this device except they haven't made one that's like what I want.
Zel:
You know what's interesting about product development is number one, you can't satisfy everybody, you know? That's the biggest thing you learn is you, you want to, you want to make this.
Annie:
But who's being satisfied by the thing that sprays out a scent? It's like you're saying, someone came up with an idea of like, this is a cool thing we could do, dogs have good noses. But I don't know who's actually is like, oh, I'm so glad they, they found a thing that I can be at work and spray a scent for my dog when I'm not there, you know?
Zel:
Yeah. I don't know that market nor that product well at all. But I can say that, you know, I make this joke about dog crates, right? The perfect dog crate would cost nothing, weigh nothing, be infinitely strong and fold up into your pocket.
Annie:
Okay?
Zel:
Right? But none of the… all those things are like diametrically opposed, right? And so every time you want to make something lighter, let's say for example, that adds cost. Oryou want to make something stronger, that adds weight, you know? And so you try and find the right balance of like what you think the average customer is looking for and give them that. That's the first thing.
And the second thing is you also want to make sure that you have built into your pipeline of how to iterate on the product, right? Because version one is never perfect. It's as good as you can but you don't know how people are gonna use it or what people are going to like or dislike. And so it's very important that you build into your product development, how to iterate and how to make it better and like listen to your customer and what are they saying. What do they like, not like? How do you make it, you know, improve it over time. The product that you like with the treat dispenser from Pet Safe, they have the benefit of being around for a really long time. So I bet you their version, who knows what because they've listened to the customer, they've heard the things you're talking about and they've iterated. And I wonder, I think the ones that are going to be successful in the new kinds, the Furbos of the world, are the ones that are listening to the customer and listen to feedback like yours and iterating quickly.
Annie:
Right. Except I think most people don't think about dog training. Right? Most people aren't designing for the dog trainer.
Zel:
Maybe not.
Annie:
But, you know, I hope to change that. Well, you know, I see dog training as something that's happening all the time. Something that affects anyone who has a dog and something that is, it doesn't have to be like, you know, it doesn't have to be a job, it doesn't have to be a chore. It should be a fun, a fun thing. And anyone who has a dog is training their dog, but I know that I'm in the minority of people. Most people don't give dog training a second thought.
Annie:
Well, it's been so good to talk to you. Is there anything we haven't touched on that, that you want to mention
Zel:
No it’s been been a fun conversation.
Annie:
Where can people find the Revol?
Zel:
On our website, Diggs.pet. You can also find it in a few stores now in the New York area and in Pet Pantry Warehouse. Right now we have, we're at…
Annie:
Where is Pet Pantry Warehouse.
Zel:
Um, we're in a few locations, Rhy, New York,Riverside, Connecticut. And we're now in a third, in a popup store called Batch in San Francisco. And we'll be launching…
Annie:
Is that it isn't like a pet, a pet place or??
Zel:
It’s a pet exhibit right now of various brands. And it's right in Russian Hill, so it's a really cool area. And you can go check out, like we've got a display there and you can learn about the product from there, from the staff there. And we're also at…we're going to be launching at Healthy Spot in a couple locations in Southern California in mid February, so you can go check that out there as well. But right now we're available on our website Diggs.pet.
Annie:
Okay. I look forward to your, your next products.
Zel:
Yeah, I look forward to it as well and talking to you further.
Annie:
Alright. Thank you so much, Zel.
—
Annie:
Our Woof Shout Out this week goes to my good dog friend, Gilby the French bulldog. I think I've mentioned him on this podcast before. He can be found on Instagram at gilbykriss. His human, is our podcast producer, Alex Kriss and her husband Benny. And Gilby has the best “go to crate” that I've ever seen. When it’s time for him to go to his crate, he zooms into it so quickly. It's really something to be seen. You wouldn't think a little French Bulldog could move so quickly. I'll put up a video this week, have it on Instagram. And if you have a good video of your dog going into his crate with a lot of speed, share it with me. Just go ahead and tag at School for the Dogs on Instagram
And our Fun Dog Fact of the day. So, you know, the State of the Union was the other day and it just got me thinking about how President Trump is always referring to people as dogs in a derogatory way. So he's always calling people “dogs.” It got me wondering how many people actually call their dog by his name. And my attempt to research this led me to New York city's database of registered dogs, which was most recently updated in September, 2017. And according to this database, which I will link to in the show notes, there is only one dog named Trump in New York City. He is a Papilion who lives in the Bronx, but there are seven dogs named Donald throughout the five boroughs and there is one dog, a Yorkie who lives in the Midwood section of Brooklyn named Ivanka. All of these dogs seem to have been born before the 2016 election and I should mention that it looks like there are no dogs in New York city named Eric.
**music**
If you're interested in checking out the rebel crate, we are going to have one in our shop at a School for the Dogs, which is at 92 East Seventh street and First Avenue. You can also find it at storeforthedogs.com, you can get there directly.
If you go to schoolforthedogs.com/revol and through the end of March, get $25 off the Revol crate when you use code SFTD25 at checkout, at store for the dogs.com.
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