07 MayEpisode 7 | Let’s talk about veterinary house calls with Dr. Lisa Lippman
In the most recent episode of School For The Dogs Podcast I spoke to Dr. Lisa Lippman and Richie Redding. Dr. Lisa is a vet who makes house calls in NYC. Richie, her boyfriend, is a comedian, and together they host Pets and Punchlines, a podcast where comedians discuss issues having to do with their pets.
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Podcast Episode 7: Let's talk about veterinary house calls with Dr. Lisa Lippman
Transcipt:
Annie:
Hi, my name is Annie Grossman and I'm a dog trainer. This podcast is brought to you by School for the Dogs, a Manhattan based facility I own and operate along with some of the city's finest dog trainers. During this podcast, we'll be answering your questions, geeking out on animal behavior, discussing pet trends, and interviewing industry experts. Welcome to School for the Dogs podcast.
Annie:
Hey, I am here with Dr. Lisa Lippman.
Dr. Lisa Lippman:
Hi.
Annie:
And, and the boyfriend Richie–
Richie Redding:
Redding.
Annie:
Okay. I wasn't sure of your last name. Dr. Lisa and Richie have their own podcast which is wonderful. Uh, it's called Pets and Punchlines. While Richie is a great lover of animals.
Richie:
I thought you were just going to cut it short. Richie is a great lover. And Lisa is a veterinarian.
[laughs]
Annie:
Dr. Lisa is a veterinarian and she's a visiting veterinarian, which means she goes into people's homes, which I think is super cool for many reasons. But a big reason is, did you ever read those books when you were kids about the visiting vet.
Dr. Lisa:
No actually.
Annie:
That series of novels.
Dr. Lisa
No, I don't know how I missed that. Nobody loved me, I guess.
Richie:
Me either.
Annie:
All God's creatures. I think they were called.
Dr. Lisa:
I mean, I know of them, but I actually never read them.
Annie:
I never read them either. I know about them, but there’s clearly a gap in both of our educations about pets. What were our parents doing that they didn't make us read those books.
Dr. Lisa:
Right? You loved animals from the get go, right?
Annie:
Yeah. Of course. Um, but what I think is cool about a visiting vet as a dog trainer is that a lot of dogs have too much stress to go to a vet. And a vet who understands how to enter someone's home is invaluable. I think it's a need that really needs to be filled in and out of New York City.
Dr. Lisa:
I mean, we appreciate that so much. And we do what we do too, because you know, we work with you and your partner, Kate a lot. I mean, I've brought Kate on house calls. So when I have animals.
Richie:
Oh really.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah, I brought Annie’s partner, Kate on house calls with me. So when I've had animals that are really fearful or, um, what's like a positive, what's like the PC way to say, like difficult to handle.
Annie:
Well, frankly, I don't know if this happens very much, but if someone had a puppy and wanted to do puppy visits in their home, I think it's a great idea because you can, in a home like set up a situation, that's kind of like going to the vet, but you're in the comfort of their home rather than stressing them out in a new place. But even more than that, I'm just thinking off the top of my head here.
Dr. Lisa:
I love this.
Annie:
But even more than that, I think that, um, a lot don't a lot of dogs get sick at the vet.
Dr. Lisa:
That's one of the things. And I think that's really interesting. It's something else we have to talk about that I've talked with other trainers about is yeah. We tell you don't bring your, you know, be so careful with your dog's vaccination status. Don't bring them outside, but what are you doing when they're not vaccinated at all? Bringing them to the vet, which is like the most–
Annie:
And the waiting room–I mean, I know at School for the Dogs when we have play times, we try, you know, we don't try, we do clean very carefully for puppies and we don't have people put their puppy down generally until they're in the like disinfected area. And I know that office is clean, but I don't imagine that they're cleaning every hour.
Richie:
The stress is just so crazy too. I participated in, uh, in one blood draw that we did.
Dr. Lisa:
At a house call. We did a podcast-slash-house.
Richie:
Yeah, my friend Rosebud. She had a dog that needed some blood drawn and like, well, and also the point of the podcast was like, we have this aggressive pit. So, Richie got nominated to put the dog in a headlock. I almost passed out from stress. I was like, I was–
Dr. Lisa:
By the way by headlock, he means like, literally just holding off the back leg vein for me, that was, he was not putting the dog in a headlock, but he was literally just holding off the vein.
Richie:
No, I've rewritten it, the story. And it was gnashing gnarling teeth.
Annie:
Here’s another reason for home visits, the owners can drink.
Dr. Lisa
Right! Seriously. I've had my, I've had people in like pajamas I've gotten into people's beds.
Richie:
What?
Dr. Lisa
Like, I mean, there's no place. I won't go. Yeah. Oh yeah.
Richie:
And I think that we might want to talk about this, who's bed did you get in?
Dr. Lisa
Actually, usually for like euthanasias.
Richie:
Oh, okay. It was super sad.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah.
Annie:
Happier topic, let's move on from that.
Richie:
I just thought somebody talked her into bed.
Dr. Lisa:
But I was going somewhere before, which was that, um..
[laughing]
Talking about puppy vaccination status and training. Right. So this is something that I'm super passionate about, which is like, you know, their critical socialization period being, and you correct me if I'm wrong. I always tell people I'm not a trainer. I will literally derail all of your training. I will let your puppy jump up on me and lick my face.
Annie:
And I wouldn’t see that’s derailing training. I mean, my, my philosophy is that training's happening all the time.
Dr. Lisa:
Right, with anyone.
Annie:
Any interaction you're having with dog, you are training that dog. Right. And you know what, if you're training a puppy to interact with the vet in a way where they feel comfortable, the fact that they're jumping up, like to me, I don't–
Dr. Lisa:
If they’re confident and happy.
Annie:
I mean, if you weigh 80 pounds and the dog is a Great Dane and like, we need to talk about it maybe, but like.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah, no, I hear you. But, but the fact that
Annie:
The fact that they’re having a good experience with you in their home
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. And that the old school way of being used to be like, keep your dog in a bubble until they have, all of their vaccinations is really no longer like the cool thing to do. Cause really, they need to be socialized before they are finished with their vaccines.
Annie:
And in doable doses of course, and I think that's where something like the visiting vet, like plenty of dogs, of course, puppies can go to the vet and be just like goofy and happy and whatever. But I know I've seen puppies and I'm sure you've seen puppies who are just like, “What the fu–!” Just like totally freaked out by any novel thing. We just had one yesterday, we had this little dog Rico from Puerto Rico and it was like every, every little thing
Dr. Lisa:
Wait, I sent you Rico. Rico is mine.
Annie:
Oh really?
Dr. Lisa:
I sent him to you.
Annie:
Oh my God! Well you know what I'm talking about then. how adorable is he?
Dr. Lisa:
He's the cutest I did. I did all his vaccines.
Richie:
Was he one of the–
Dr. Lisa:
He's an animal lighthouse rescue. We got that litter, like of 43, at once. It was like an insane, yeah, we got them all off the plane, like 43 of them at once. And so for me, it was kind of assembly line.
Annie:
But you remember Rico.
Dr. Lisa:
Oh Rico, also he was nervous. Tell me, tell me, but let's work together on Rico.
Annie:
My, my feeling about it, puppies as socialization goes, is socialization, it's all about the associations they're creating. And I think when people think about, um, like training a puppy, they think, you know, we need the puppy to do X and we need the puppy to do Y and it's important that the puppy not do these– And I feel more like, you know what, during that socialization window, your job as a person with the dog is to just make the dog feel good about the world they're going to need to live in.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah.
Annie:
And if that means like having, you know, that means a dog jumps up on you sometimes like, okay, like we have plenty of time to like, deal with those issues.
Richie:
So what's like the big mistake that people make then?
Annie:
Well, you know what I think, bringing it back to the vet stuff with a puppy, I think a lot of it is setting criteria too soon. Well, for instance, someone comes into a classroom and then I'll bring this back to like, if they're going to the vet, right. But someone comes into the classroom to a puppy kindergarten class, and it's a puppy’s very first time there and right away they’re you know, like, “Bingo, I want you to sit, sit, Bingo sit,” right? Like wanting this, having this perfect idea, this like Norman Rockwell idea of like what it should look like when you're at a dog training class and my dog is sitting next to me. And I'll be just like, you know what? Just feed them treats, just like sit there and feed them treats. I don't really care what he's doing and what I always say. It's like, when you send your kid to kindergarten on the first day and they do a crayon drawing, you're going to come back and show you the crayon drawing. You could look at it with your eyes closed and be like, yeah, that's great. And I don’t think it's about spoiling the kid or spoiling the puppy, but just, I just want the dog to feel good about being at school, comfortable there, especially a dog like Rico. Otherwise, if you're, if you're, if you're barking, if you're barking, you're telling the dog, I want you to do XYZ all the time. When you have a dog who's scared, like Rico, you know, tail tucked.
Dr. Lisa:
Oh no.
Annie:
Close to the ground. He got more and more comfortable, and was learning lots by the end of the time. But the most important thing for him to learn was just like, this is how I can just exist here.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah.
Annie:
And I think a similar thing can happen at the vets, right? Where you have a dog on the table and you have, you know, the owner as this idea of like, the dog should be sitting right now. So the doctor can get the shot. And really the dog is just, you know, really nervous about being there often, especially when they're on the metal.
Dr. Lisa:
Right. Which is the total difference between doing it at home. Cause we don't do that. But, um, I, but I love this. I think we've created something new here with the, because puppy appointments are some of my longest appointments and half of those questions are really training behavior.
Annie:
Yeah.
Richie:
It is weird that like the, the steel metal table hasn't been replaced in most vet clinics. Like, it seems like they could make that a lot more dog friendly.
Dr. Lisa:
In the Fear Free courses. I think. I mean, they, yeah. They talk about using like non-slip mats and stuff like that.
Annie:
I was just thinking we have, we have branded yoga mats that we use in the studio all the time. We should just give those to vets to use.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. The problem is they're harder to clean. And so if you're worried about like an infectious patient or something like that, but, um, but yes, we could make it a lot more pleasant for a lot more patients in a hospital setting.
Annie:
But I don't think making dogs feel good about being there has ever really been the goal of a vet office, which has also usually not been the goal of a training, a training facility.
Lisa:
Got it. Yeah.
Annie:
You don't, I mean, I think stereotypically you think about bringing your dog to a dog trainer, you don't think about a place where your dog is going to be like psyched to be there. And as a vet, like, right. Like you want a dog who's psyched to see you.
Dr. Lisa:
Oh yeah, for sure. That makes me so happy. And I love to use all the treats and try my hardest to make a positive experience. But, and this is why I started house calls because I want to be able to focus more on the intimate setting with my patients and my clients. But unfortunately the reality is in a lot of clinic settings, the veterinarians just don't have time to
Annie:
Of course.
Richie:
But even here though, with Chloe, like there's one drawer that if she goes into there, Chloe knows that's where she keeps stuff.
Dr. Lisa:
My medicine.
Richie:
Yeah especially like the vag and ear stuff.
[laughing]
Dr. Lisa:
She has a recessed vulva.
Richie:
If you go for that, Chloe bolts for me and tries to hide behind me and her body temperature goes up like 10 degrees.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. She knows when I hit that drawer. I just, yeah.
Annie:
Well you can do some counter conditioning there.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah, I could. I could.
Annie:
Or, you know, move it to another drawer perhaps. But isn't it interesting how they learn to make those associations.
Dr. Lisa:
She just knows. Oh my God. Yeah. Even though she's never stepped foot in a vet clinic. Actually, she's happy to, when I bring her, when I used to bring her to, like, when I bring her with me anywhere, she is happy to go into the clinic. She doesn't have a clue, but
Annie:
Right. Because she's all of her procedures have been at home. Right. I guess that's an interesting, that's an interesting, like turn that's like a problem that could occur is then your dog is afraid to be at home
Dr. Lisa:
A thousand percent.
Annie:
But with a puppy, so much of it should be pleasant. And I agree. I mean, I don't agree. I can imagine that you say you go to these visits and then a lot of it is talking about how to care for the puppy and you're like, you should call a trainer. Um, because, I actually, one of my best friend's mothers is like a pediatrician to the stars in New York City. And she spends something like 90 minutes for a first visit with the parents. Like I think even without the kid there, sort of like get to know what it's like to have a child session with the client, which is not, was not my experience of having a pediatrician when I was a kid. It was like where I went when I was sick. Yeah. But I appreciate that she does. And I'm sure her clients appreciate it.
Richie:
Yeah I just had some guy that didn't speak English jam needles into me.
[laughing]
Annie:
So when you decided to be a house call a house call vt– I was calling a visiting vet, is that okay?
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. You can call me whatever you want
Richie:
I actually have been sitting here every time you said it I'm like, how did that not come up? When we were kicking around names for the company. Visiting vet.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah, it’s great. I’m just not mobile, the distinction is like, that would imply that I worked out of a mobile unit.
Richie:
A lot of people picture that she has like a Ghost Buster mobile.
[laughing]
Dr. Lisa:
Well, I might.
Annie:
Do you have like a briefcase, or where do you keep your supplies?
Dr. Lisa:
A book bag. Actually and like 90% of what I need, it's just in my book bag.
Annie:
You need a bike with like, did you ever see the show Call the Midwife?
Dr. Lisa:
No.
Annie:
It's about London, these nurses in London, in the 1950s and 60s. And you have to look at it now because I'm picturing your get-up.
**music**
Annie:
So as far as being a, I'm going to just keep calling you visiting vet because I like the alliteration.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. Lisa Lippman, the Visiting Vet.
Richie:
The Vets in the City.
Annie:
When you have the alliteration of Lisa Lippman right there.
Richie:
And Richie Redding
Annie:
Oh, Richard Redding. I didn't even think of the double. Oh my God. Visiting vet. Come on. I think you need to reconsider anyway, as a visiting vet, I'm interested in how you made that transition, were you at a facility before that?
Dr. Lisa:
Mhmm. Well, I trained at BluePearl so I was working like hundred hour work weeks. Did a lot of emergency there.
Annie:
Did you have a specialty?
Dr. Lisa:
No specialty. I mean, I, you know, you either focus when you don't have a specialty, you can either focus on emergency or general practice as opposed to going into like cardiology or oncology. Those are like three year specialized training. Um, but so I did exclusively emergency for a little while and then I did exclusively general practice for a little while.
And basically, you know, I just, I loved the idea of, of being house call, having that, having the time with my patients and my clients being in intimate settings, seeing what their environment is like, having it be less stress for everybody involved. And I had a friend who started a house call practice. And so basically I said to him, I love this. Please let me join you. And, um, then he decided he actually didn't want to do it anymore. So I created my own and that's kind of where I'm at right now. So yeah, I just, I just loved the idea and I found
Richie:
And I love the idea of you doing it on your own too. Really like setting out on your own and doing it. Like it's such a different thing when it's, when it’s your business.
Annie:
Well and you seem to me like you approach it like an entrepreneur, not just like something that you're,
Richie:
Oh, she's a hustler
Dr. Lisa:
I mean, I have a partner just like, just like you and Kate, I mean, I have a partner, because I asked her– so I've grown the house call practice with my own clients from when I was working for my friend, Alex. But then I liked the idea of having a partner. I love collaborating. And so my friend, Dr. Lauren Benson, she's a brilliant veterinarian. She's super personable and fun and smart.
Annie:
She doesn't have an alliterative name though.
Dr. Lisa:
No. She doesn't, Lauren Benson. Now, how can we fix that?
Richie:
She's getting married.
Annie:
Could her name now be Betty. Betty Benson.
Dr. Lisa:
Yes. No, we call her Betty. So yeah, Betty Benson, that's perfect. So, uh, basically I was just like, look, I'm starting a house call practice. I think you would be really good at this with me, do it with me. And she was like, yeah. And that's why I love her. Cause I was like, literally the whole conversation. I was like, I'm starting this. Do you want to do it with me? And she was like, yes. And I was like, okay,
Annie:
That sounds actually a lot like me and Kate. And we haven't talked since.
[laughter]
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. So, uh, so it's a little different, obviously I've been doing it for a year. She's brand new at everything, but uh, yeah, I've always had like a very entrepreneurial spirit. I'm sort of, I like being a–flexibility is, is important to me. So yeah. And I'll just go out there and work. So I still pick up relief shifts at different hospitals because it's not quite sustainable yet. So, um, I'll go, I'll work like all day and then I'll do a house call at night or I'll do it like in the morning before I go or on the weekends I do weekends. I do weekend nights.
Richie:
Or she’ll wake up at 5:30 in the morning so she can do Dr. Oz and then go to a shift.
Dr. Lisa:
I also do some media stuff on the side.
Richie:
The hustle is real.
Annie:
That's amazing.
Dr. Lisa:
It depends if you're not getting the brunt of my attitude. [laughing] If you're not living with me, maybe when I'm tired and cranky…
Annie:
How did the media part come out? Um, come up.
Dr. Lisa:
It's like a real, crazy amalgamation of things. I think like, um, when I started the house call practice, I had like a month into it. I had a patient catch [inaudible] the largest cat in New York. I don't know if you guys have seen this a, he went super viral. And so there were so many questions about his health as being a large cat. Like why is he so big? What are you feeding him? Is he healthy? How did that client come about? That client came about actually, we were quoted together in the New York post article.
Richie:
[clears throat]
Dr. Lisa:
So I was just–was it you?
Richie:
One of my friends.
Dr. Lisa:
There was a New York post–
Annie:
I used to work at the New York Post.
Dr. Lisa:
Oh, you did?
Annie:
It comes full circle.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah, it does. It's funny. So there was a New York Post writer who posted something on like a Facebook group, looking for a veterinarian for a quote for an article about this cat. His friend recommended me.
Richie:
And my house call hairstylist
Dr. Lisa:
I reached out and being–right, right. And–
Annie:
Wait do you really have a house call hairstylist?
Dr. Lisa:
Christina. We love you.
Richie:
I mean It sounds super bourgie when I say it that way but basically yeah.
Annie:
Let’s just do house call everything.
Dr. Lisa:
She's amazing. Yeah. I mean, that's the way of New York city, right?
Annie:
I’m all for it.
Dr. Lisa:
So we were in that article, I was in that I was quoted about him. So I reached out to him and I was like, you know, we're in this, like, I love this, you know, if you ever need a house call that I'm happy to come see you. And he was like, yes, actually, he's got like this thing on his face come today. That was literally, I was like, okay, I'll be there in five minutes. And um, and then he just blew up. I mean, just took off. We did everything from like Harry Connick Jr. To, um, Good Housekeeping, TMZ, Inside Edition, all the Facebook lives.
Annie:
You really had a fat cat that put you on the map.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. Richie says it a little differently, but.
Richie:
Yeah, I've, I've been doing standup comedy for well over 10 years.
Annie:
You didn't like that joke, then?
Richie:
She holds up one retarded cat and then Bravo Network might do a show about her. So happy for her. Just so happy. You did it, honey.
[laughter]
All that hard work.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. And then, and then I had a friend who was contacted by dr. Oz about like pet food. And so she recommended me. It was all like at the same time. And then, um, he was contacted by one of the largest agencies in Hollywood to represent him. Somehow he wound up pitching me and they like loved it. And we've been pitching a show around the house called Practice as well. So it's just like a crazy bunch of–but also I've reached out. I mean, part of it, I've just reached out to like, like all the influencers that I've worked with. I know we were talking about this for, for Alex. Like I'll just message them and be like, Hey, do you want a house call? Cause it's the best thing ever.
Annie:
I think it makes you extra, extra cool and extra special because you have, I mean, as, as a dog business entrepreneur also in New York city, I think it's really exciting that you have this talent
Dr. Lisa:
Thanks.
Annie:
As, I mean more than talent as a doctor, you have years of skill and training.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. And I feel the same way about you guys. I mean really when I first knew Kate, I was like, God, how do you, you have this whole, like, to me, it's almost more impressive. Cause like you have, like an actual building. It seems so much more like adult in real life where like you guys have to manage a whole thing and I'm like, I'm just going to do this. Uh, it knows I was more complicated than that, but figuring out, cause like they don't teach us anything about business in vet school. I mean, I'm sure for this, the same thing for you, you know, we had to like, thank God Lauren just like knew a lawyer who knew something about startups and it's like how there's no handbook, on this.
Richie:
But also I feel like with you, like, you know, when I watch you with patients and clients and stuff, like you have so much more personality than the typical vet, that's just kind of getting you in and out. And it's just all about the medicine. Like, you know, I watch you and you have an actual connection with people and people were like, Oh my God, we love her. You know? Like just cause like, even if it's that extra 10 minutes, it really goes a long way.
Annie:
I think you're a great example of that, of a business person who's using what they've got and what you've got and what you're good at. And I think it seems like what you enjoy is talking to people in a very approachable way. And um, I don't know. I think that’s really cool.
Dr. Lisa:
Thank you.
Richie:
Yeah. And also Pets and Punchlines has really gotten you out of your shell, I think with like being more outgoing. That was, that was part of the reason that we started. It was like, well, first of all, my friends are her worst clients. It's like, “So I think when I left the house, I had five weed gummy bears and I can only find two of them. The dog is six pounds uh what do I do?” And I'm in the background, like “Eat the other two!” But she wants to like call Poison Control. But you know, so there was always the thing was there that comics wanted to get vet advice. ut it definitely took time for you to not be super serious. “I'm a doctor in the hospital”– to be more yourself. It's like, it's like Dr. Lisa versus Dr. Lippman.
Annie:
That's interesting. Well, it's interesting. Cause it's like they have football players do ballet or you know, or they have, you know, business, people do,
Richie:
Improv.
Annie:
It's a similar kind of thing.
Richie:
I will go out that window before I participate in comedy sports. Just so you know, you guys, we’re on the 19th floor.
**music**
Annie:
Dr. Lisa, I would like to take this opportunity to find out a little bit about marijuana for pets. This is something I get asked a lot about these days because there's a lot of cannabis based products out there.
Dr. Lisa:
So I'm going to preface this by saying it is very illegal for me to prescribe or recommend. It’s not illegal–
Annie:
Is that in New York state or?
Dr. Lisa:
In all fifty states. Federally.
Annie:
For pets it’s illegal in every state?
Dr. Lisa:
So people can buy CBD oil or products for their pets, but veterinarians in all 50 States cannot recommend it. It is federally classified as a schedule one drug where, which means it has little to no or it has no medicinal value and has high potential for abuse.
Richie:
By dogs.
Annie:
But in some States, people can prescribe–It can be prescribed to people, but not to dogs.
Dr. Lisa:
Right thats right. Yeah. And, and it's, it's illegal for veterinarians and all 50 States to recommend or prescribe it.
Richie:
It’s amazingly ass-backwards if you ask me.
Dr. Lisa:
That being said there is a lot of, there is no regulated study right now. I think they're working on that. I think at the University of Colorado. Also there is,, like federal congressional hearings to try to reschedule the drug. So there's a lot of things happening because anecdotally–
Richie:
Is that just for vets? That they’d be rescheduling it.
Dr. Lisa:
No. It's the DEA, on a federal level. Yeah. So, and that's, and that's because anecdotally there are so many reports of it helping for things like seizures, anxiety, pain. And so I think that we definitely need a lot more research into looking into it, but the problem is with the things like, the treats that have the CBD in it, we don't really know how much CBD is in there and it still can be toxic for pets who will like get into the whole bag of a treat with, we don't really know how much THC is in there.
Annie:
Is it that you don't know how much is it in there or how much should be dosed for the dog–
Richie:
But CBD is completely non-psychoactive, that's the whole thing with CBD.
Dr. Lisa:
But there is a little bit of THC and it's not regulated. I mean, it's not regulated at all. So we actually just really don't know
Richie:
Right you’d have to have a super clean source
Dr. Lisa:
— who's doing the quality control on it? Who's doing–there is a known dose actually that, is i want to say, it's like 0.5 to two mgs per kg, according to the ASPCA poison control. So if you call ASPCA poison control and they can actually calculate like different dosages that pets get and what the toxic adverse effect.
Annie:
Did you read that book, Zoobiuity? I think it's called, do you know the one I'm talking about.
About the overlap of
Dr. Lisa:
It’s the one health movement. I know Zoobiquity to be a conference and the one health movement being about
Annie:
So can you explain to listeners who don't know what the one health movement, I've never heard it called that, but I think I understand what it is.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. And that's what the Zoobiquity conferences are based on. Basically, the coming together of all medical professionals, veterinary, human, to work together, to solve our, everything from our food supply to zoonotic diseases, which zoonotic disease are diseases that's transmissible from animals to humans.
Richie:
The Jump.
Dr. Lisa:
That's right the jump.
Annie:
Which is many.
Dr. Lisa:
So like when I was in vet school, we pioneered a course called, the one health course, which is basically we had like 13 different medical professionals. So everybody from podiatry to nursing, to doctors, to veterinarians, dentists, all working to solve, like one case, we would get a case and we'd all work together to solve it. So it was really, really cool.
Annie:
I think that's, I think that's the coolest, yeah.
Richie:
You didn't finish your–
Dr. Lisa:
I was going to give you my secret tip for poison control.
Richie:
Secret tip time.
Dr. Lisa:
So if your dog is microchipped and registered with Home Again, which Home Again is like a 1999, about a $20 service per year.
Annie:
That's that little yellow house tag that a lot of dogs have.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah exactly, yeah. Which your dog should, should be, then and you call ASPCA poison control. It's usually like a 60 or $70 charge to talk to a board certified veteran toxicologist.
Richie:
They get into chocolate, or whatever it is.
Dr. Lisa:
Right. Um, but if you have the microchip number and you're registered with Home Again, it's a free call. So it's very cool. I have called it myself several times.
Annie:
That's good to know.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah, it's great. I love it.
Annie:
Going back to Zoobiquity, because I'm just obsessed with looking at animals from the larger perspective. Um, they talk about this case in this book. Maybe you know about this. I was trying to look it up cause I forget which direction it goes in, but I think there was a problem where animals were getting heart shaped–Do you know what I'm talking about?
Dr. Lisa:
You’re talking about Dr. Horowitz was the one who did the research. She is a UCLA cardiologist. She actually gave the commencement speech at my vet school.
Annie:
Oh. So you know exactly what I'm talking about.
Dr. Lisa:
She's the one who's pioneered this movement and that's because she's a UCLA based human cardiologists. And they call her in regularly to the zoos in California to do work on like primates and things like that. And they were, she was finding that animals were dying from,essentially like cardiomyopathy's or basically when they would get so nervous and they would run themselves into what seemed like a heart attack. And she said, you know, these animals are essentially dying of like broken hearts, but it–capture disease. She was also calling it. So when you go and capture an animal, they literally can die because they will run their heart and their muscles, you know, beyond what's capable for their body to sustain. So, yeah, she really pioneered this movement for human doctors. But she's incredible. She does a Ted talk that's incredible.
Richie:
Whats the book again?
Dr. Lisa:
It's called, I believe Zoobiquity is right. Cause she hosts the conference Zoobiquity, which is the one health movement.
Richie:
That sounds like something I would read.
Dr. Lisa:
And there's been a few things like that.
Annie:
Basically what my takeaway from that book was there are a lot of problems that exist in one species, that also exists in other species, especially humans. And in some cases we know a lot about it in one species, other than humans, but haven't looked at it–vets have been in that area–and vice versa and that, by sharing knowledge about how, cancer works in all animals..
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. Or like dogs don't really get heart attacks. They're kind of evolutionarily advanced in the fact that they don't get arthrosclerosis like people do. And don't actually have, they get different forms of heart disease, but they really don't die of heart attacks from arthrosclerosis like humans do. So like why are they, what causes their arteries to be able to not produce the plaque buildup that humans get?
So, yeah, there's a lot of different things that we can study in a lot of different species. I had one of my vet school professors was the one who actually discovered the link between West Nile virus in birds. She was a pathologist at the Bronx Zoo and she was getting all these birds that were dying and it was never diagnosed before. She was the one who made the link between birds and people and having it be like, you know, just so crazy. Contagion it's–
Richie:
How many things do, you will have to eliminate before you come to that?
Dr. Lisa:
She just was a brilliant pathologist. I mean, and just like recognized it from studying. You know, if we study a lot of the books I used in veterinary medicine, in school, even, were human, because it's just, so–
Richie:
What happened to West Nile anyway?
Dr. Lisa:
It’s still there.
Annie:
Where did, where did you go to school?
Dr. Lisa:
I did a premed program at UPenn in Philly. And then I did vet school in California at Western University.
Annie:
Aren’t there two different kinds of, um, vets? Like, there's a DVM, and also a..
Dr. Lisa:
Oh there's a VM only if you, if you go to UPenn for veterinary school, they have what's called a VMD instead of a DVM, it’s just a veterinary medical doctor. It's the same thing. It's the same exact degree. It's only because they, their veterinary school started actually, this is interesting. Their veterinary school started out of their medical school. And also what’s interesting is that it used to be like a hundred percent men and now it's over 80% women, but anyway, their veterinary school actually started out of their medical school. So they have that veterinary medical doctor degrees and every other school has doctor of veterinary medicine, it’s the same degree though.
Annie:
Did you want to be a vet when you were a kid?
Richie:
Oh boy, did she.
Annie:
At what point did you realize a portion of your job would be having to put animals down?
Dr. Lisa
I guess I never, that's a good question. Um, I think I always just accepted it as part of, I never really thought twice about it because to me it's really, it's a gift we have to give, which is part of, you know, why on house calls it really is such a peaceful situation. And again, just really a gift that we have to give. It's something I really believe in strongly. So, I think I just try to think about it like that. To me that's not the hardest part of the job to me again, that's me being able to help in the best way that I can. To me, the hardest part of the job is when I can't do my job, you know, when finances are restricted or people look at animals as just property or abuse situations, those are the hardest part. That's the hardest part of the job.
Annie:
I've heard that from other vets, too. And did you, is that something you realized on the job I'm guessing–
Dr. Lisa:
Also the debt.
Annie:
The debt.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. I mean the debt to income ratio is really, it's the worst, it's the worst of any medical professional by far.
Annie:
Do you think that’s part of the reason that
Dr. Lisa:
We have the highest suicide rate? Yeah, definitely a big part of it. Yep. It's definitely a big part of it. And the fact that veterinary medicine is expensive, but you know, if you look–
Annie:
People might not know that by the way. It's a profession that has some of the highest..
Dr. Lisa
Yeah. A thousand percent. It's a very unfortunate, um, but the debt, the caseload, uh, the litigious society, dealing with people.
Richie:
Yeah. I do think that it weighs on, on some vets is the amount of death. I mean, cause you know, the life cycle is like seven times faster for animals.
Dr. Lisa
I say we see about five times more deaths than any human doctor.
Richie
Like imagine a pediatrician. I think that's a thing, that like if pediatricians delivered a baby and, or, you know, it's OBG, whatever, if they deliver a baby and then euthanize it like that, that has to have some effect on some people.
Dr. Lisa:
Sure. But I think also..
Annie:
Oh you mean within the same lifespan?
Richie
Yeah. Because you know, when a vet has a patient or client, they, you know, they see the full life cycle of it. But I think that Lisa definitely does look at it the best way. You know, you're ending, suffering, not killing something.
Annie:
You know, it’s interesting, my husband studies the ancient world and we've talked a lot about how in other times, people just lived with a lot more death than we have to live with. You know, like people, more children died, people died for, from, you know, things that are easily curable now. And that in some way, I wonder if like the fact that we have pets is a luxury that, um, if we were dealing with as much death of people, as we are all the time we have room in our hearts for–
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah. Sure.
Richie:
And the level of, of emotional connection that people have to animals now is like, it's higher than it's ever been throughout our history. But like there's a study recently that millennial feel, a more emotional bond to their pet, to their dogs than to their siblings, which is pretty wild.
Annie:
Right. And then they're planning their entire lives around their pets, not buying homes in certain areas or staying in apartments all because I, you know, I always, I always think about those kinds of statistics or stories or just like that, the way we talk about that or this moment of pet ownership with, with mixed feelings, because on the one hand, I'm like, I can see the point of view of like, Oh, it's ridiculous. And like, you know, like I said, I was a journalist for a long time. And so much of journalism is sort of looking at, looking at pets as kind of like less than us. And, and as sort of accessories to be spoiled by young or foolish people, as opposed to treating them in the media as like equal parts of our life. That's never in my experience as a journalist been like a really normal way to cover pets.
So there's part of me, that's still like, meh, whatever, it's so silly that these girls want to take their dogs to brunch or whatever. But then I also think it's awesome. You know what, it’s awesome, if that's what you love, right. And that's where you're putting your love and not put, you know, rather than putting your love into, you know, a new car, which isn't going to benefit particularly, you know, if, if you're, and if you're taking good care of that animal and like, and it’s giving you connection and keeping you from feeling lonely and like, and if you become my client too.
Dr. Lisa:
Sometimes it’s like, is it, can I like, can I believe I'm like an animal doctor? Like they don't care. The animals don't care.
Richie:
but like on the Zubik equity level, like, you know, I, I feel like you learn compassion and empathy and, you know
Annie:
Yes.
Richie
You learn how to take care of something.
Annie:
Which can only be a good thing for people in general.
Richie:
Yeah. So like, yeah, I think it makes sense that people feel that connection. There's there is never a building there's there's no, uh, no siblings buildings.
[laughing]
No siblings over 60 pounds.
**music**
Annie:
How can you help your dog, your puppy who you want to introduce to going to the vet– How can you make that a safe experience, a safe and happy experience?
Dr. Lisa:
It's funny when you, when you say that, to my mind, I would say, I would tell people, I think this is all training and I would kind of refer back to you too, but I would say like bringing them in so carrying them, right. Never putting them down on the ground, in the waiting room
Annie:
Well I think that’s a valuable piece of advice that many people wouldn't think of.
Dr. Lisa:
So, so yeah, so carrying them, not putting them down on the waiting room floor, because that is where a lot of the viruses live. They're very hardy even despite what we do. So parvovirus and distemper virus, the two that we really want to protect dogs against, which is why–they're, they're carried transmitted mostly fecal, oral, but poop is everywhere.
I always tell people poop is everywhere. Like the tiny little particles, those viral particles are very hard to kill. They're very hardy in the environment, despite what we do. So that's why, you know, if you put your dogs, if their paws are on the ground and then they lick their paws, they can potentially get infected. So, um, if you bring them, carry them, uh, don't put them down in a contaminated environment, wiping their paws down, maybe when you're done with the appointment.
Annie:
And what about bringing puppies outside of the home? Is there anything else that you think that people should keep in mind to make sure that they're safe? If they are getting their dogs out before they've had all their shots?
Dr. Lisa:
So, I'm sure you're well aware of the American Association of Veterinary Behavior actually states that after their second set of vaccines, that the benefit far outweighs the risk of them getting sick. So that's the time when they can go down on the ground. Um, however, they should not go to places that dog was where we're unsure of their vaccination status frequent. So basically no dog parks, no pet stores, um, no place where you're, you're really unsure.
Richie:
No junkyard dogs.
Dr. Lisa:
So avoid those high traffic areas.
Annie:
Isn't it possible for some dogs to be fully vaccinated after even after their first round of shots? But we were just not sure if the–
Dr. Lisa:
So if they're up to date, what happens with vaccines is any dog who's nursed from their mother gets maternal antibodies and those antibodies can fight off our vaccines. It doesn't mean that they necessarily do, right. And if they're up to date on their vaccine protocol, then theoretically they should, they should be protected.
Annie:
The way I understand it is the reason that their vaccines are given multiple times is because we don't know exactly when those antibodies wear off. But it's possible that it's possible that the first round of shots has hit at the moment when the antibodies have already worn off. In which case the first round might've worked, we just don't have a necessary, we don't have an easy way of knowing
Dr. Lisa:
Yup. A thousand percent. I mean, we, we mostly think it's somewhere between 12 to 16 weeks, which is why we say they need to be vaccinated every three to four weeks until they're 16 weeks old. Because then by that point, we're sure that the material and the antibodies have worn off, but before that sure, yeah, they could wear off. Or there's some puppies who really never nursed from their mothers.
Richie:
What?
Dr. Lisa:
So, um, you know, they’re bottle fed.. Yeah. Yeah. KBR, whatever.
Annie:
Thank you so much. You guys, for taking the time to chat about this stuff.
Dr. Lisa
Thanks so much for having us, so fun. Yeah. We created a new business. Yeah. I love it. You're coming with me. I didn't know if you know that, you’re coming with me.
Annie:
It's been a productive hour.
[laughing]
Dr. Lisa:
Yay.
Annie:
Great to have you also at School for the Dogs soon. Maybe, maybe I need to have drinks with Dr. Lisa.
Dr. Lisa:
Yeah drinks and increasing the human animal bond. Right. That's a huge thing I would love to do that. I think he would have so much fun, like doing classes. He never did a class with her. So I think we would, she would have so much fun saying let's increase our human animal bond.
Richie
Most of our training is just me staring at her and tell her daddy don't play.
Dr. Lisa:
I'm sure. Kate. I'm sure. I'm sure Annie is going to tolerate that at the school
Annie:
Animal animal bond, because we're both animals.
Dr. Lisa:
That's interesting. I like that.
Annie:
And where can our listeners find you?
Dr. Lisa:
So our podcast is Pets and Punchlines, that’s mostly comics with vets talking to comics with pets.
Richie:
The other way around.
Dr. Lisa:
Comics with pets talking to–
Annie:
You get to be the only vet.
Richie:
It’s the world's only vet slash comedy podcast, it’s comics with pets talking to vets.
Dr. Lisa:
That's right.
Annie:
It would also be an interesting podcast it was just a comic, say, If you talked to a different vet, every time. Or you could just talk to a different girlfriend, every time.
[laughter]
Dr. Lisa:
You try one out for the day.
Annie:
I'm not actually suggesting that. I'm just giving you some other ideas.
Richie:
Neither of us are gonna shake each other on this podcast. It’s way better than being married.
Dr. Lisa:
We do break up every podcast.
Annie:
It’s like the Beatles that it only functions when its–
Richie:
Yeah, otherwise it's Wings, ugh! But yeah it's way better than being married, we podcast together.
Dr. Lisa:
@vetinthecity_, @drlisalippman on Instagram and everywhere else.
Richie:
@richieredding
Dr Lisa:
Thanks so much.
Annie:
Thank you so much.
**music**
Annie:
For our fun dog fact of the day, I thought I would share with all of you that the very first veterinarian in recorded history lived in Mesopotamia around 5,000 years ago. His name was Urlugaledinna. And we actually have an image of him, which I will put in the show notes at Schoolforthedogs.com/podcast. And, um, he was known as a male midwife at that time, but it's believed he mostly worked with nonhuman animals. Our Woof shout out of the week goes to Reggie. Reggie is a wonderful Boston terrier who I first met when he was a tiny puppy four years ago. And since then he's been coming to School for the Dogs three or four days a week, possibly more with his owner, Mona, who is one of our favorite human clients. Reggie, the Boston terrier. He has done a lot of great things in our Day School, including he learning how to, um, stand up on his front legs. We've taught him to do a handstand, which is pretty adorable, or I guess you'd call it a poss stand. Anyway, sadly, Reggie is moving away from School for the Dogs to the upper West side, and we are going to miss him so much down in the East village that it's possible we might just have to move uptown with him.
Thank you so much for listening. You can support School for the Dogs podcast by telling your friends about it, leaving a review or shopping in our online store. You can learn more about us and sign up to get lots of free training resources.
Links:
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Dr. Barbara Natterson-Horowitz
