28 AugEpisode 74 | Dogs don’t think we’re dogs: Ethologist Dr. Marc Bekoff on how we can give our “frustrated captives” a good life in a human world
Last week, Annie looked a bit at the career of Dr. Stanley Coren, a writer who recently penned a Psychology Today article suggesting that one way to silence a barking dog is to clamp down on the dog's nose with your hand, like a mother wolf might do to try to silence a wolf pup. Ethologist Dr. Marc Bekoff, who is a columnist for Psychology Today, penned a response saying that we need to consider the causes of dog behaviors we don't like, acknowledge that they're engaging in behaviors that might be appropriate in a different environment, and then work at changing those behaviors with techniques that don't require that we attempt to school dogs as if we were one of them. Annie has a conversation with Dr. Bekoff, who discusses the Psychology Today article and explains why an ethological approach can shed so much light on the dogs who live in our homes, and beyond.
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Transcript:
Annie:
Hey there. So last week I talked about the dog writer, Stanley Coren. He had a piece in Psychology Today where he basically suggested that the best way to get a dog to stop barking was to clamp down on the dog’s muzzle with your hand and say the word “quiet” to the dog, a method that he says mimics how a mother dog might quiet her pup.
And in response to this article, Dr. Marc Bekoff wrote a really thoughtful essay saying, you know what, maybe we should be instead thinking about what's causing a dog to bark and see the situation from a dog's point of view, as best we can. And to acknowledge that they're basically captives in our world and we're asking them to live by our rules. And that most likely don't think about us as fellow dogs. So we probably don't need to be communicating to them as if we were dominant wolves in their pack.
Anyway, it was a beautifully written response. So I reached out to Dr. Bekoff and I'm happy to share with you this conversation, which touches a little bit on Stanley Coren's article, but also went in some other interesting directions. I hope that you enjoy this episode.
[Intro music]
Annie:
Thank you for joining me, Dr. Bekoff. My dog nerd listeners will know who you are. I think that there might be listeners who don't know who you are.
Dr. Bekoff:
Yeah, well, I taught at the University of Colorado for many, many years and have been studying dogs and their wild relatives for even more years than that. And I’m an ethologist by training so I really, if you will, get paid to watch animals. So I've done long term field studies on wild coyotes, living in the Grand Teton National Park, outside of Jackson, Wyoming,
Annie:
Would you mind explaining even what an ethologist does? Ecologists and ethologists?
Dr. Bekoff:
Well an ethologist really studies animal behavior, and it's usually from the biological or evolutionary point of view, so different from a comparative psychologist who might study behavior, but looking at it more mechanistically. Ethologists tend to do field work. And if they do experiments, they're usually pretty noninvasive. We call them ecologically relevant experiments so that they fit into the lifestyle, say the sensory and the motor world of the animals.
Annie:
So it's like studying behavior in context.
Dr. Bekoff:
In context.
Annie:
Then again, there's always a context, right?
Dr. Bekoff:
Yeah. But it's the context is really, you can ask dogs and other animals to do things that they don't really need to do, or haven’t evolved to do. So ethology would be much more related to asking questions like, why do dogs play? Why has it evolved? Why do they court or mate, or mark or fight or signal in certain ways in terms of how it serves them?
So the question of the evolution of behavior would be what's it good for? Why did it evolve? With dogs it's different of course, because we select their behavior patterns, but still dogs and their wild relatives like wolves and coyotes have the same basic behavioral patterns.
Annie:
I think that before I became interested in dog training, just the very notion that behavior was something that evolved was completely foreign to me. I thought of evolution as having to do with why animals have different lengths of tails or —
Dr. Bekoff:
No, but you're saying something really wise there, Annie, because an ethologist would say behavior is something an animal has as well as something it does. So it's a structure that there's certain ways that dogs communicate play or appeasement or submission or threat. And they're very similar to wolves and coyotes and say wild canids because it serves them well.
Baring teeth, I mean, it can mean a lot of different things. And your comment about context is critical because bared teeth during play means something different from bared teeth when say two dogs or coyotes or wolves are fighting over food or fighting over a mate. So what you said is really important because people sometimes think of behavior as just something an animal does, but they don't realize that evolution works on the different form of different behaviors.
So play bows are very, they're very stereotyped and unambiguous across species, including dogs. And that's because it's important for dogs to stay. I want to play with you, not mate with you or beat you up or eat you for a meal. So that's really critical. Whereas comparative psychologists would not ask maybe that kind of evolutionary question.
It’s also, like I said before, really look at context. And yes, you could get dogs to do certain tricks and you can get them to learn certain mazes or detour learning. And that might be important to them if they were wild, but ethologists once again, might be interested in can dogs learn certain tasks and why would they have evolved?
You know, do they learn to find food, say, and then out in the wild — believe me when coyotes, and I've studied feral dogs and wild dogs, when they're looking for food, they are like running in a maze. So I think it's the ecological and the evolutionary relevance that separates ethologists from say just comparative psychologists who are more interested in mechanisms. Yeah.
Annie:
So interesting. It seems to me like it's the economists of the nonhuman world. Or maybe the economist or ethologist [inaudible] world. But figuring out like how animals earn a living.
Dr. Bekoff:
Yeah. That's no, that's exactly right. And so the ecological relevance question could be once again, how do they earn a living? I mean, and really earning a living in the wild and in evolutionary terms really means how do they survive? How do they get the food they need, the mates they need, the friends they need, the area they need. All of these things that they need to ultimately survive, thrive and reproduce.
Dogs aren't faced with that. Well, no, that's not true. I mean, the fact is people don't realize that probably 75% or so of the dogs in the world are on their own or pretty much on their own.
Annie:
I was thinking about that today, and I remembered that fact and I, then I thought, God, that can't actually be true. Can it? But it is.
Dr. Bekoff:
It is very true.
Annie:
I was just gonna say, I realized it cause I was making some comment about dogs as if they all live in homes in something I was writing. And then I was thinking about how there would be plenty of dogs who would read that and take the note and say, I don't live in a home [laughs].
Dr. Bekoff:
Right, actual homed dogs are a small percentage of the dogs in the world. And Jessica Pearson and I just finished a book, it'll be out next year, called Dogs Gone Wild, imagining the lives of dogs in a world without humans. And we started it two, three years ago, long before the pandemic. But once again, the fact is people go, Oh, no dogs wouldn't do well.
Well maybe pampered home dogs wouldn't do well, but it's estimated there's between 900 million and a billion dogs. So give or take, if you want to be conservative, you could say there's six or 700 million dogs who are either on their own or relatively on their own. Cause you know, I mean, I've traveled all over east Africa and China and India and there's a lot of street dogs. And so they're not strictly feral. They still get food. Some go home, a large percentage don't actually get that in area care, but they still have contact with humans, but they don't go home.
And it turns out that many studies of these street dogs show they're very friendly. They get along really well. They form groups, packs like wolves. I mean, it's another myth that dogs don't form packs, well dogs don't really form functional packs with humans. I mean, so that whole idea of the dominant dog, the dominant individual in the pack, it's very misleading.
And that gets into a lot of the things that I've been writing and reading about dominance training and I'm going to be the alpha, there are alpha dogs. It's been a myth in the literature that the term alpha animal like alpha Wolf doesn't apply. It does apply, but it applies in a very different way from the way in which people interpreted. But they're not really dominant in the sense of dominating like —
Annie:
It's not like Game of Thrones style. Like who's going to win [laughs].
Dr. Bekoff:
Not at all. No, not at all. People go, my dog is dominating me. He or she wants to be first out the door. No, maybe they just want to be first out the door, maybe they smelled something. No, no. I think you're really right on the mark. I mean, there are people who would ascribe to certain schools of thought who are dog literate, as I say, or fluent in dog. And they believe these people because it's like anything else, you know, someone has a TV show about anything. It could be dog training or diet or anything.
And you believe that because they've got that notoriety and that publicity, that what they're saying is so, and so it's not a criticism of these people. That's just the way they think, Oh, someone's on TV has a dog show this month. They must be doing it right. Or something like that.
And I think that besides some of the words that Stan Coren used, because I don't like talking about owners and masters, but reading his piece very carefully, except it wasn't strong enough for me. Because he does talk about the natural way, if you will, that coyotes and wolves and other canids will stop a vocalizing animal. Okay. And I mean, cause I've been out there. You don't want an animal howling or barking or young yelping inappropriately or at the wrong time because they could attract other animals, intruders and predators who could take the young animals.
That's why I wrote the piece. The two words I focused on there could have been other words, but can a dog bark excessively or unnecessarily? And I mean, yes they can. I've been around dogs who've just been a real pain in my ears, if you will, because they've just been barking, but you need to really pay attention to their sensory world.
Like I said, the article used dogs to detect odors and sounds and alarm us alert us to when something's going on about which we're not aware. And that would be the ethological point of view as you pointed out is that I have a dog who barks a lot, and I wanted to know why. The other thing is, I'm not a dog trainer.
Do I know a lot about dog behavior? I do. Do I know how to train dogs? Not really. So I had a problem and a woman years ago came to my house and then two trials, stopped Jethro from being a pain barker. But what she pointed out to me, but I knew this was there something he's picking up that you're not picking up. So let's play with that. And I don't remember how she did it, but believe me, I was trying to stop him from barking for a couple of months after I rescued him. And she did it in two minutes and he never did it again. I mean, it was simple.
So context is critical. When people tell me Oh my dog just barks too much. I'll go, your dog may bark too much. Maybe your dog had a hallucination. Maybe your dog had a headache. Maybe a dog's got joint pain. Maybe your dog is trying to tell you something's around that, which you're not aware, but that could be —
Annie:
Maybe the dog is doing you a favor and alerting you of something and yourself.
Dr. Bekoff:
Absolutely. We depend on dogs to do that. I mean, when I lived in the mountains, I was glad my dogs would bark at night to certain sounds, or odd sounds. Maybe there was an intruder. Maybe they're telling me, don't go out. There's a mountain lion or a bear. And so, right. But you know, it's like people moaning in pain. Yes. Sometimes people are looking for sympathy, but sometimes they're in pain and you don't know, you can't see it or feel or sense their pain.
So that was what you just said before, we were talking in terms of ethology. That's why I wrote it. Context is critical. Taking the dog's point of view is critical. Especially when, say a dog starts barking excessively or what you think is excessive or unnecessarily when they hadn't done it before, that's a change in behavior.
But the other thing of course, which, although I'm not a trainer, but to me, it's a no brainer that the last thing you want to do to a distressed animal is punish them or hit them or slap them. And as I pointed out in my article, I mean, countless times I've seen wild coyotes and wolves, if you will, being told by other wolves or coyotes not to vocalize, but you gotta be really careful when you're the human doing it to a dog who's upset. And once again, Stan Coren points that out.
Annie:
I mean, I hear everything you're saying and a lot of it, and what you wrote too, boils down to stop trying to do mind reading. Like he writes here “From a behavior control point of view. I knew that that was a bad move.” He’s talking about his friend yelling “shut up” to his dog.
“Here, we have a situation where the dog's master simply does not understand the basics of dog language. To a dog, loud short words, like No, shut up, don't bark, and so forth just sound like barks. Think of it this way. The dog barks to signal a potential problem. Now you, who are supposed to be leader of the pack, come over and also bark. This clearly indicates that you agree that this is the right time to sound the alarm. Apparently Chester read the situation this way and responded by actually increasing the amount of barking that he's doing.”
Now what’s strange to me about this paragraph and other paragraphs, this is just the oneI picked up is, I mean, how do we know that to a dog loud, short words like no, shut up, don't bark and so forth just sound like barks?
Dr. Bekoff:
Well, we don't, but I think what Stan is saying is once again, from an evolutionary point of view, cause I had a student who studied this. Short commands, like no, stop and all that are very, very similar to alarm calls. They have an abrupt onset and offset. There's not a lot of noise. There's very specific signals and maybe evolved.
Because when an animal wants another animal to do something, because it's important, they do it. Maybe they don't want to attract predators or they're doing something that could be dangerous to themselves and the whole group. They want a signal that is totally unambiguous. It's like danger. Right. And whatever is wired into them to respond to danger, run into a hole, go under the bed, whatever it is —
Annie:
Same thing with us, right? Like sharp sounds, sirens. The smoke detector going off is like the worst thing possible to my dog.
Dr. Bekoff:
Yeah, exactly. No, you've hit it on the head [inaudible] and these kinds of signals in humans. I mean, we're mammals. So we're going to have a lot of similarities to other mammals in terms of the way in which we communicate. So that's exactly right.
One of my friends, I was on the ride and we were talking about this yesterday, she's got young kids and she said, yeah, when River has a temper tantrum, the last thing she has to do is have a temper tantrum back because it just accelerates. It's like, it's sort of like fighting fire with fire or adding oil to the fire. Yeah.
So once again, yeah, you can stop the dog from doing certain things or a kid by punishing them and doing some nasty stuff. And then they're living in fear for the rest of their lives. And I really mean that I've had some people tell me that one of the dogs I rescued, I think had that kind of experience. And it was a labor of love to get her to even– I mean, I think she liked me and my partner at the time.
But it was a labor of love because it was clear she'd been really severely abused when she was young, she was getting mixed signals. I love you. And then being slapped or screamed at, and probably what she was saying was can you tell I'm distressed? And you're just adding to my stress, my distress.
Annie:
So then he goes into talking about — “To quiet barking, the dominant animal places its mouth over the offender's muzzle.”
Dr. Bekoff:
Yeah. Right. So you could use your hand. I can tell you right now that even with some of the dogs I knew really well, the last thing I was going to do when they were barking crazily was to put my hand near their mouth. I mean just no way I was gonna do that.
I mean, so a mother coyote or a mother wolf will sometimes put her muzzle over the muzzle of a young animal and squeeze it softly. They're not trying to injure their children. They're trying to, in a sense, either stop them from opening their mouth to vocalize or basically send another message. And I'm not sure, it could be just stop this. Not meant as a punishment per se.
And so does that work? Yeah, it can work. But like I said, with the dogs I knew really well, if they were barking crazily, the last thing I was going to do was put my hand near their mouth.
Annie:
Doesn't his suggestion that a human mimic, this kind of suggests that our dogs think of us as other dogs?
Dr. Bekoff:
Yeah. That's exactly my point that I was making before is they don't consider us as other dogs. You know? I mean, there's no reason to think they consider us as other dogs. And that's that whole confusion. When people go I’m the alpha member of this pack of dogs in my house, and it could be them in one dog or them and two dogs. And no, you're not a dog. I mean, I'm not saying, they're saying that, Oh, you're, you know, you're not a dog, you're a human, we don't communicate like they do.
And a lot of times we have this relationship with them where even if we're not trying to intimidate or control or dominate them, that's how they look at us because we do in fact control their behavior. I mentioned it in my article and Jessica Pierce and my book called Unleashing Your Dog.
Really is written with the premise that dogs are captive animals. I mean, especially home dogs, but even some free ranging. They're captive. We don't mean it in a pejorative way. We just mean that we control where they go, who they play with, when they eat, where they, when they poop, where they pee. And so —
Annie:
You said, and the consequences of so many of the behaviors that they're going to engage in.
Dr. Bekoff:
Exactly. Once again, they can interpret “no.” And everybody I know at some point has said no to a dog. I mean, it just comes out. It could be the way you say it. And yes, sometimes it comes out and it's a little too no, but when that happens once or twice, it just happens reflexively, that's not where, in my opinion, once again, I'm not a trainer, but in my opinion, that's not where the damage is done.
When the damage is really done is that persistent is saying no. I actually published this article. I cause when I go to dog parks, I always do the science stuff, either alone with people, but I call it helicopter parenting. And it turns out that 80% or more of the time people were telling their dogs not to do something, and maybe they wanted them not to do it, but only 5% of the time did they just spontaneously say good dog.
I did that all the time. And people would say, why are you saying, why are you telling your dog a good dog? Why are you saying good dog to your dog? They didn't do anything. I said, that's my point. They don't have to do something to be my buddy, it’s like telling a friend of yours, Hey, I really like you. You don’t have to earn that praise. It's just a nice, friendly way to do it.
Annie:
Well. And also engaging in a non-annoying behavior is by definition, engaging in a behavior that you like. And so you can go ahead and reinforce that behavior.
Dr. Bekoff:
It could be that, too. And sometimes I just, when I go to dog parks, sometimes I'll just say good dog to a dog. And in all honesty, many people know that's an okay thing to do. But what struck me in the helicopter parenting or dogging little study was that more than 80% of the people were saying no, or stop, were controlling their dogs to get them to stop doing something.
And very few, actually, even when they're playing, I can remember a lot of instances. You've got dogs playing and the dog leaves the playgroup sort of runs back to their human to say hello or whatever they are doing. And I would always say, go play! How few people would say go back and play. You know what I mean? Not that the dog, since you're sort of giving the dog permission to do something and I don't think the dog was coming over to say, Oh, is it okay if I play? They may have been coming over to say hello or, or whatever. We don't really know.
But it surprised me in many ways that they weren't getting praise either spontaneously or when they would just come over to be your friend. I don't know. Maybe I have a completely different view of what's happening than many people. Probably not many people, just people who are forever saying no to their dog or some functional equivalent of no stop, bad dog.
I wrote an article called something like bad dog and positive reinforcement. I'm tired of hearing people tell a dog they're bad for sniffing poop. I mean, that's what dogs do.
Annie:
Right. And same thing with this Stanley Coren essay where he's saying, talking about excessive barking. If you're protecting your person, it might be just the perfect amount of barking. But that's also saying that the owner is punishing the dog by yelling at the dog. I mean, just the nature of his understanding of punishment seems sort of a technical definition of punishment seems fishy to me.
Dr. Bekoff:
Well, you know, in all fairness. And once again I say it because I know Stan and he's a nice guy and all that. I don't think he does formal dog training. And I don't know that, but I am always careful to tell people I am not a dog trainer. Because my email box gets buzzed out of control sometimes by people who want to know.
Like after this barking article, I got a bunch of emails about dogs who were excessively barking. And I wrote back to them and said, it all gets back to context said, number one, I'm not a dog train. And number two, before I could make any evaluation or assessment of what's going on, I need to see your dog in action, in the context in which this is happening. So go find a local positive trainer and have them come observe.
And that's exactly what the woman did with my dog Jethro. She came and watched him before she tried to solve the problem that I was having. And the problem I was having was not because he was necessarily barking excessively. But once again, as an ethologist, I knew there's something that's really ticking him off and it's stressing him. And it was. So that's why.
I mean, I lived in the mountains and a little barking didn't really matter, but it was more I could tell by his overall behavior that he was uneasy and distressed and something was making him bark. I don't know the situation which had happened. I don't think he was protecting me. I mean, it was in the house. I'd be in front of him or sitting on a couch, but there was something that was really bothering him.
Annie:
How would you categorize the essay then written by Coren? Would you say that it's outdated information or misguided?
Dr. Bekoff:
I would say that he knows a lot of dog behavior. Believe me, I've talked with him and read a lot of his stuff. I think that he comes to it maybe more as a psychologist, so the stimulus response, punishment type of thing. And actually I've sent him, cause I've written a few essays, not criticizing him per se, but you know what I'm saying? There's another view of all this. And he's written me back and been very cordial about it.
It was also interesting too, because I think he was responding to a friend and he wasn't meaning any — I couldn't impunity ill intention on Stanley Coren’s heart about what he was telling the person to do. But that's why I'm, I mean, it gets back to the fact and I think if you just asked him, maybe he would say, you know, he's not a dog trainer. Maybe he does dog training. I actually don't know. So I'll be honest with you, but it's a different point of view.
My input, if you will, into the training world, and I guess I have a little leeway there since I'm not a trainer, is I really believe firmly in force-free positive training. I had a really interesting discussion with some trainers a few years ago about a situation that happened above me. When I lived in the mountains, there were just a few houses scattered. And a woman rescued a dog who just really had had a horrific upbringing, just horrible.
And the dogs on this mountain side where I lived could run free, and dogs would come down to my house. They'd hang out at my house. I would, um, I play games with them during the day, since I worked at home, I would bury little treats all over my property and they'd spend hours trying to find them and digging them out. I mean, it was really enriching to them. They never went anywhere because they knew that there was going to be food around.
And so she had this rescue dog who was desperately trying to play with the other dogs. It turned out that he had, I don't know what happened to him, but it was a human type of thing. So he came to like me, he came to like the woman who rescued him, but he would also take off. So what she did was she bought an E-collar. She put it on herself, put it on the lowest possible setting on herself, posed herself, put it on her dog. He ran off the property, and I think it was one or two trials. She just buzzed him at the same level which she buzzed herself.
And literally for years, cause I lived up there, her dog never ran away again. So I didn't know what to say about that. And so I use it as an example, one, not supporting the use of E-collars, and I had some really good exchanges with trainers who said that they could have solved that problem without using even a low amplitude collar. And that was once again my saying, I'm not a dog trainer.
I did not encourage the woman to do it. But I mean, literally two times. And that was years where her dog just never ran away again. So she asked me if I would do it with my dogs. And I said, No. I would call some of the trainers around Boulder who have force free positive trainers.
Annie:
Well maybe you don't have a plaque on your wall that says dog trainer, but you know, there's no licensing for being a dog trainer. Not that I'm saying you should go out and start charging people as a dog trainer.
Dr. Bekoff:
No, no, no. What I meant by it was that —
Annie:
You understood why it was working.
Dr. Bekoff:
I understood why it was working, but I would definitely have called some of the people around Boulder at the time.
Annie:
But you were also aware of the possible fallout, right? I mean,
Dr. Bekoff:
Oh, absolutely. And that's why I wouldn't do it. Right. I mean, cause yeah, so down the line, what happened with the dog who she rescued. He never ran away again, and for years, I mean great life in the mountains. He'd run around, he'd run around with all the dogs. There was six or seven dogs on the hillside. He'd come sleep in front of my office at home. He'd play with them.
You know, the first thing some of these dogs would do, including him, they'd come down and they'd immediately go to this land in front of my porch because that's where I would bury treats. I mean, I swear I would sit in my office cause I could see this big field. I would just start laughing, because some of them had developed this unique pattern of going from spot to spot.
And what was also interesting that I pointed out was I think it was related to, I didn't write it in this article, but I wrote it elsewhere. That right around my house: black bears, cougars, red foxes, bobcats and occasional coyotes. So these dogs had to be trained to hand signals because I didn't want to yell, come on home. Or if I sensed the bear, cause they used to have a mother bear and her babies, and dogs are no contest for a mother bear and her babies.
So I've got them to kind of look at me and every time my hand ran into my right pocket, they would come to me because it was food. They knew they'd get a treat. I didn't want to be standing up on the hillside screaming, come when there's a bear or a cougar around.
Annie:
That's good dog training in my book.
Dr. Bekoff:
Well, I honestly thought it was really good dog training, to be honest. Because once again, as an ethologist, it was context specific. If I yell come, they probably would come. And so might danger. I actually asked my friend at the time, she's no longer around, who is a dog trainer and she just gave me little hints for getting them to pay attention to me. Get to see me, put my hand in my pocket and pull out a bone.
It was so quick. It was unbelievable. I mean with Jethro, one of the last dogs, I guess he wasn't the last dog I lived with. Jethro was like one trial learning. I rescued him. He got used to the neighborhood, he got used to the dogs. He really loved, he was a love muffin. And I would go Jethro! Turn around, hand in right pocket, bone.
So if I went Jethro, low, he would do that. And I, once again, cause I wouldn't have known that, that actively trained them to look at me every 20 seconds.
Annie:
But you did, you did train it and then you trained it in pretty much just the way I would teach anyone to teach their dog their name.
Dr. Bekoff:
Exactly. That's exactly right. And they've got good hearing. So even if he was a hundred meters away and I went Jethro! He would turn around and look, but then it got to the point with him and one of his friends Rosie up on the hill where they would almost run, turn, run, turn, run, turn, expecting me to have my, expecting that I’d be giving them a treat. So.
Annie:
There are worse things than that. I'm puzzled by the fact that Psychology Today published this when they also publish your work and Herzog’s work. And I mean, what is the process of getting published in Psychology Today? If this reputable magazine is publishing these things that are, I mean that are suggesting, if nothing else, mind reading of dogs, which if nothing else, I think where we can all actually agree that we cannot read dog’s minds..
Dr. Bekoff:
Well, I think it's a good question. The people who write for Psychology Today, they're invited, they are rather selective. And one of the things that I've enjoyed is that they don't do heavy handed editing if you will. There's no one who I know there who's a dog trainer or even necessarily a dog behaviorist.
But the one thing that I really enjoyed, because I've written a number of responses to a number of articles, some of which — not by Stan Coren, but you know, everybody thinks they can write about dogs. And there were two articles published on site today over the last couple of years. And I wrote a bunch of articles for psych today about myths. And they were motivated by these articles that just portrayed dogs in the most unscientific un-dog — these people knew nothing about dogs.
So what I liked about that process, cause I really do enjoy writing for them, is that they assume when people write, they're writing about things they know, but they're also very open to these sorts of exchange. And I was, I had not seen Stan's article. I was like, I wrote in the article, all of a sudden my email was, “did you see this?” And people [inaudible] sending out for a long ride. I said, when I come back, I need to study it. I mean, you need to read things before you write about them, either praising or criticizing them.
So that's really the process. And I think a lot comes out of that kind of exchange. I really do. And one of the articles that I criticized, they pulled. I just said it's really irresponsible. It's irresponsible to have this essay there. And my editor was great. You know, she said, well, you need to point out why. And I did, and I said, I suggest that you remove that article.
The woman who wrote it, I don't know her. She liked dogs and she lived with a dog. She was not at all taken back by it. I just said, I think you're doing a disservice to dogs when you write. And how would you like it if I tried to write an article on nuclear physics, or psychiatry about which I know nothing. So yeah.
Annie:
I mean, I think this article is a disservice.
Dr. Bekoff:
Well, I tried to put that out.
Annie:
But do you think they're going to take it, do you think they'll leave it up? And future people will say, well I read how to do this in Psychology Today, so this must be the latest —
Dr. Bekoff:
Yes, they might. But at the bottom of all articles, when people respond, it tells readers that there's a response to it. Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest. I think it's a very fair way to do stuff. I really do. The article that they pulled was really bad. I wrote a response to it and I wrote to my editor and I said, look, here's my response.
And for the same, sort of along the lines of what you were just saying, I just said, we don't want people to read it. And she said, if people read it, at the bottom, they'll say Marc Bekoff or whoever it is has a response to this essay. And I said, I don't think that's good enough in this case, but I don't know what else one could do.
Years ago when I started writing for Psych Today, I wrote a bunch of articles that there was this whole myth that dogs don't display dominance and wolves don't display dominance. And they were totally misquotes by two of them. Dave Meech who's probably one of the world's wolf experts. So I wrote a couple of articles about dominance, arguing that dogs don't display dominance is pseudoscience, and dominance is not a myth.
And one of the guys who wrote the article that I was criticizing, he actually eventually got removed from writing for Psych Today because his essays were so bad. So what I'm saying is, is that I, and I don't know this because I have a unique position with them. They publish a lot of psychological clinical type studies, and I do the animal emotions stuff. And Mark dirt does a lot on domestication. And so Stanley's been writing with them for years. So.
I would say that I feel very comfortable with the fact that they don't super micro edit. My article, sure, it was criticizing what Stanley said, but it was a mild criticism trying to raise points about what he said. Some of the ones I've written have not been mild criticism. They have been really fairly strongly saying that the people who wrote these essays didn't know what they were writing about, and people know about them. Maybe that's the best way to say it.
Annie:
It seems to me like it's the equivalent of, I don't know, like a magazine called health today suggesting that we treat cancer with leeches, and then someone writing a response and saying, actually there are more modern ways to do this. And that both the articles are being kept up gives them equal weight.
Dr. Bekoff:
Sure. I agree, it's not that egregious, but I do. I understand what you're saying, but —
Annie:
I'm speaking in hyperbole.
Dr. Bekoff:
Yeah. But I like the fact that there can be exchanges. I really do. I think that it's a good way for science to grow. I really do. And the emails I get, because I don't leave comments open because they generate spam and they generate hate and all that. And Psych Today is actually okay with that. The default now is comments are off not on.
But the emails I get are very instructive to me, I've written a lot about, like in Canine Confidentially, I wrote a lot about the comments that have come in via email to me about different issues about dog behavior. So I would have to say that maybe responses to Stan's essay, the responses that I've seen, including the one that's stifling, if you will, exchanges.
And I've been told a number of times and maybe others who write about animals, that they're not an animal journal. Or online site or whatever. And they've actually printed a few of my essays in the print edition.
So I was really pleased because it hits a very, very different audience. And I would have to say that the people with whom I've had contact have predominantly in [inaudible] your camp about training and other things they really have been. So.
Annie:
We're talking about the realm of science here. I mean to call it like a camp again, it feels like it's giving equal weight to myth. I mean, you say it's a conversation. What do you feel like you've gotten from your end of the conversation with Stanley Coren here?
Dr. Bekoff:
Well, I mean, personally, I can't say what I've gotten, but I've gotten a lot of really positive emails from people saying thanks for writing your essay, or people describing situations they've had with dogs who barked a lot saying that they've solved them.
Annie:
No, but I mean a conversation with the person who, I guess what I was hearing you say was like, you're talking about a conversation between one author and another.
Dr. Bekoff:
Oh, I meant conversation sort of metaphorically, that I write something, people respond. Like I've written some essays, which Herzog has responded, because he knows more about areas of say human animal communication than I do.
But, for example, I wrote an essay a few months ago because I was tired of people saying, Oh, during the pandemic, if you need company to go get a dog. You know, and I wrote an essay that's gotten thousands and thousands of hits. And Hal wrote an essay about that. The same essay from a different point of view. He just has different expertises if you will.
So when I say what I've gotten out of it, I'm not sure I would phrase it that way, but what I've gotten out of it would be an exchange of saying, look, there's another point of view. And the essay that said basically, okay, it was nice. It was a little, it was not as blatant as that, but it was basically saying, you know, it's a tough time. And if your local shelter has an adopt-a-pet or foster a dog cat, go get one.
And I remember just saying no, you know, getting a dog really — bringing a dog or a cat or another companion animal home is a huge decision. And we really should. We need to be more careful about the decision, and people read this kind of stuff. And a lot of people want to see both, two, or three or whatever number of sides of an issue.
Annie:
So on the one side, we have the dog training that is rooted on treating dogs as if we were other dogs in a pack, rooted in pack theory that has been largely debunked. And then on the other side, we have a more nuanced approach to observing dog behavior in different contexts and dealing with it by manipulating the environment, or punishing the behavior conservatively, or reinforcing alternative behaviors, et cetera, et cetera? Is that, is that a good summary of the two camps? [laughs]
Dr. Bekoff:
I guess so. But I don't look at Psychology Today as being any kind of dog training manual either to be honest. I mean, so I published a number of essays I've written with Mary Angele, who's a really great trainer here in Boulder, and she's actually penned a few on her own that I've published as guest essays. And they've been very popular too. So I get the word out, if you will, personally about the essays that either Mary and I have co written or that she's written on her own. And they've been very, very popular.
But once again, I mean, Psychology Today isn't a comparative psychology or animal behavior or animal emotions or cognition outlet. Like I said, I'm really happy to write for them. I've written a couple of thousand and a half essays for them, and they've been very popular and it's a good way to get the word out to a crowd who doesn't think about nonhuman animals in general from say the point of view that I would put forth.
Annie:
And by the way, I've asked him if I could talk to him too, but I haven't heard back. But for his part, what do you think like Stanley Coren brings to the table for readers in general? Cause he writes frequently for them too.
Dr. Bekoff:
Yeah. I think a lot of his articles are really interesting and well done actually. I mean, I don't mean actually that way. I mean he knows a lot about dog behavior, so he's written some essays that I think are very interesting. Like I said, we look at things differently, and I sent him a copy of an essay that I wrote.
I wrote an essay about the same topic as he did, but I didn't know he had posted an essay and he wrote me back a really nice email saying, yeah, that's really interesting. You're looking at it from a completely different point of view. Well we are because I'm trained in evolutionary biology and ecology and he's a psychologist. So a lot of the differences in approach could be easily explained by different training. Training, meaning, you know, academic training.
Annie:
Or maybe yeah, or a narrow focus on his part on human psychology rather than animal behavior as a whole leading to, kind of, that skewed view of animals.
Dr. Bekoff:
Well, um, I wouldn't call it skewed necessarily. I mean, it's, it's his view from the way he's been trained. I mean really on a scale of one to 10, he's really user friendly, having been trained in psychology. I mean, some of the people who have been trained in psychology and the use of animals are off scale in terms of their views of nonhuman animals?
So all I would say, and I, and I really mean it. I just think open exchanges are really important. I just really do because people could shut me out too. I mean, I'm, I say some pretty radical things and I'm glad that, I mean, not only with Psych Today, but with other outlets, that I can have an outlet.
And if people write to me nicely, I will respond. And if people write to me nastily and I get nasty emails, I don't respond. Because I have no interest in engaging with people who won't even agree to disagree. So when people get personal, attacking the position rather than the person —
Annie:
Right, well, it's all very emotionally charged stuff because it relates to the way we exist in the world. I think my issue though with reading some of his essays is, here he is, a psychology PhD, and time and time again, I feel like here I am, like barely have a college education, but I have a pretty sound understanding of operant conditioning and classical conditioning and how it relates to dogs and dog training. And I feel like it's something I could explain to a novice in 20 minutes.
And I feel like I read his work and I feel like the fact that behaviors that are reinforced are more likely to happen again, that behaviors are punished are less likely to happen again, like this, like the whole operant conditioning paradigm would be complete news to him.
Dr. Bekoff:
I mean, whether I agree with him or not on certain things. He is really trying to do the best for dogs. I mean, I can tell you right now, I mean, I've met him and I've been at meetings with him.
Annie:
I mean, I, yeah, I absolutely agree that the good of the dogs are, I'm sure, in his best interest. But like, don't you think that's true also of Cesar Milan?
Dr. Bekoff:
I would like to believe that, but I don't know him. So even people with whom I disagree about certain views of dogs and or other nonhuman animals, I do believe that in their view, they do have the best interest for the animal at hand. And certainly most of the people I know who don't necessarily favor or stress force free positive training probably would too.
I mean, to me, frankly, it's just an expression of my view of the world. I've taught in a local jail for 20 years and I've taught people from pickpockets to murderers, and the punishment based stuff in the long run for most nonhumans and humans don't work.
So in a sense, my view is that these punishment based sorts of treatments can often produce very quick results. Sometimes not that long lasting. And if they aren't long lasting, then they could be long lasting because you've basically scared the hell out of a dog or a person. And it’s just something I'm not into. I just never have been.
Annie:
One last question for you. You know, one of my goals with this podcast is to help people think about all the amazing things there are to do with dogs. Outside of like, kids who like dogs are told, well, maybe you can grow up and be a vet, but often it kind of stops there.
And I think that there's a lot of interesting stuff to be done in the world of people who are interested in animals. If somebody was listening to this and trying to figure out what to go study or what to do as a career, what would your advice be if somebody loves dogs and loves talking about this stuff?
Dr. Bekoff:
Once again, maybe not maybe even, but you know, cause I really am a biologist and an ethologist, I would say that they should take courses in animal behavior. People who are interested in the behavior of dogs, I mean, they're interested in what we know about dogs and how they learn, could be used to make living with them more compatible in a human dominated world.
In this book, Dogs Gone Wild, about the lives of dogs in a world without us, Jessica and I actually write a lot about that, is looking at dogs as mammals — they are mammals — looking as dogs not as artifacts. I mean, years ago I was told many times that studying dogs wasn't worthwhile because they're not wild animals.
And I mean, basically now no one would say that, but people said that dogs have life histories, they have evolved characteristics. Yes, we played a major role in that, but that's okay. They still breed like mammals. They still have the genes of mammals.
So what I've told people, in fact, I did an interview with not potential students of mine, but a woman who was interested in going into grad school, and where they should focus on dog behavior. Was really looking at dogs as mammals, look at them as real animals because they are real animals, and apply if you will, biological principles to them.
And then of course the other side of that is looking at dog human relationships, and how in the world did certain dog breeds come about? How could the people who were selecting for certain traits, knowing they were deleterious, just continue doing it? I mean, short answer is that they liked the dogs and they thought certain things were aesthetically appealing. And so they did it and they didn't really care if dogs could breathe or not breathe or even give birth on their own.
I mean, there's a lot going on there, but from a biological, ethological view, there's wonderful studies being done in India on free ranging dogs. So I'm encouraging. What I'm really encouraging people to do is develop the skills as a [inaudible] or a field biologist or a behavioral ecologist.
And there's great stuff being done in Italy, on Bali, in India. I mean, probably in a lot of other places, on free ranging and feral dogs. And then people get an appreciation for who dogs are, who they can naturally be. And why living with them in a home or an apartment is part of the package of being a dog, but how you can then give them the best life possible.
That's why Jessica and I wrote Unleashing Your Dog. We really did, was from the dog's point of view, knowing that dog human relationships are very important to a lot of people, and that people don't once again, getting back to where we started was people don't realize that a lot of dogs are just captive animals who are completely whacked out and stressed.
I think the proof in the pudding there is I've had trainers tell me that who are overloaded! Like Mary Angelina in Boulder and other trainers who can't possibly deal with all the problems that they're dealing with. And the root of the problem is that these dogs are trying to adapt to a human world.
And there were a lot of times that people have good, I really believe, that the people have good intentions. I mean, some of my friends who live with dogs, I always tell them they’re lucky that I'm their friend, because I could tell them about dog behavior. But I really do mean that, that these people are well intentioned. And sometimes they want quick and dirty responses to train because they're whacked out, the people are themselves, and they're overworked. They're overburdened, they're busy.
On the other hand, the first thing I do, and I do this a lot on rides cause I cycle a lot and many of the people with whom I ride own dogs, is I say, watch your dog. Read a little manual. So, you know, I can find a good one or part of my book on dog behavior. No, the dog's not trying to manipulate you. No, the dog's not trying to use you. The dog is confused. The dog is being forced to lose their dogmas as I pointed out in that article.
They have no idea what the hell they're supposed to do because they're being forced to live in a human world. I mean, you know this, so, but a lot of people really need that reinforcement. And that's why getting back to those myth papers. Dogs don't live in the present. Dogs have a past just rescue an abused dog. They don't live in the present. They're not zen-like, for example.
Dogs are not our best friends. Dogs are not unconditional lovers. And I really mean that. The essays that I've written on this for Psych Today, I've gotten tens of thousands of hits, and of the comments that come in thank me for that. Because one of the myths that really is destructive is that dogs are our best friends and they're unconditional lovers. And I've had people say to me, I don't feel my dog loves me. Is something wrong with me? Meaning the person.
So no. And I really mean this seriously. I've had people at dog parks come up to me and say that I go, no, tell me a bit about your dog. I don't know your dog. Oh, my dog was rescued. Oh, my dog was abused. Oh my dog didn't like women. Didn't like men. Didn't like children and I'm going, Oh, well, it's not about you. It's about your dog. But if you say it right, and you say it nicely, then you really can win them over and teach them dog.
So this idea that, would you like if you were kept in a certain situation where you lost your humanness, your womanness, your manness, whatever you want to call it. And that's, what's happening to dogs. They're being forced to lose the dogness because they're being forced to live in human environments.
And it's a good point for me to end on there cause I do have to go. But that's a chunk of, towards the end of Dogs Gone Wild is trying to understand that there's a lot of dogs who would do really well without us because they'll be free, but they'll have more freedoms. And that's what unleashing your dog was all about or is all about.
But once again, getting back to where we all began is there's no universal. Dogs are unique. What works for one dog may not work for another dog. Dogs have different personalities, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, you know, all of this. And so that's what I was trying to point out.
And in the essay I wrote in response to Stan was that certain techniques might work — I mean, I'm talking about positive force free techniques — for Joe, but not Harry or for Mary and not Jane. You just need to learn dog and learn who your dog is. And when you, when I ask people to do that, they love it.
I got an email recently from a woman in the UK who said she had read something I wrote, and she and her dog have a completely different relationship now. She always loved her dog and she never would hit her dog or punish her dog that way. But she said, wow. So I watch him — and I'll just read something that just came in about half hour before, because it really touched me. Let me see. Oh yeah. He said:
“My wife, then girlfriend moved here to join me in 2017 with her dog Echo. I worked from home before the pandemic and found a lot of joy in observing Echo's behavior. Your work resonates so much with me because I devote a lot of thought and time to the small ways in which we can enhance Echo's life or make the world create easier for her to make sense of.”
And so what he and his wife were asking me was for references to papers on dog behavior. This guy is, he's an atmospheric scientist. And so that made my day! I don't know him, I've never met him. I said, watch your dog! And when people are asked to do that, they actually, most people love it. They really do.
I get all these emails about, Oh, my dog did this and my dog did this. And when, when they're driving me crazy, I sort of put them in a folder and I come back and read them at sometime. And I went to just laughing at the stories. I'm a big advocate of citizen science. I can learn a lot from these people. And if they ask me questions that I think are ludicrous, or they have observations, I don't say that. I just say, look, can't answer that right now. I just don't know enough, covered a lot of ground here.
I just think that there's a lot we don't know. There's a lot we know. There's a lot more to learn. But I think discussions like this are really important because the other side of the coin, and it's another long conversation, is that just when people say they know everything about dogs or other animals, they don't
Annie:
[Laughs] Really appreciate your time. Yeah. There'll have to be a part two to this conversation. Cause I enjoyed it too much.
Dr. Bekoff:
Send me an email, I'm around.
Annie:
I ended last week’s episode with a comedy clip from the early 1990s featuring Adam Sandler, among others. My husband pointed me to another dog related sketch from around that time that I thought I definitely needed to share with you this week.
[excerpt from sketch plays]
Narrator:
If you have to leave town this winter, why not let the Herlihy Boy be your dog sitter. Out of an estimated 30,000 professional dog sitters in the world, the Hurley he boy is by far the best.
Adam Sandler:
Hello? Let me feed your dog, please. If you go away on vacation, let me feed your dog. Your dog needs food. I could give them that food. Please let me feed your dog. Come on. Let the boy feed your dog.
Man:
Hi, how are you?
Adam Sandler:
Good. Let me teach your dog a trick, please. While you're away. Let me teach your dog a trick. I'm already going to be in your house, feeding the dog. So why not let them learn a trick? I know one dog trick. I could teach it to your dog. You can tell everyone you taught it to them. I don't care. I just want to teach your dog a trick.
Man:
The boy knows a dog trick. Let him teach it to your dog!
Adam Sandler:
You're still here. Nice to see you. Let me rub your dog's belly. Hey, hear me out. I really want to rub your dog's belly. Your dog likes to have his belly rubbed. I like to rub dog's bellies. It's perfect. He lays down. I rub. The dog leg wiggles. So come on, let me rub your dog's belly.
Man:
For the love of all things holy, let the boy rub the dog's belly. He said he likes to do it and you know damn well, the dog likes it, too! Just let it happen! That’s all we want here, just let it happen!
Adam Sandler:
Please! Let me put a pair of old gym trunks on your dog. I'll pull his tail through the seam in the back. He'll look really cute. I don't see why that would hurt anybody. Please.
Man:
[screaming] Let the boy put the gym trunks on the dog! You don't wear them anymore! The dog’s gonna look adorable. You heartless bastard! Is it so wrong to let your dog look cute? I mean come on [sobs.]
Another Man:
I kept quiet as long as I can, but I am not going to stand here and watch you destroy two of the finest people I've ever met. [shouting] So just as Mr. O'Malley asked and let the boy put shorts on the dog! Period.
Man:
[screaming] Thank you very much! Finally, somebody's got a brain in here. I thought I was alone. My God.
Adam Sandler
Let me be your dog. That's right. I want to be your dog. Just put a pillow in a wicker basket and I lay in it. I won't bite you. I won't chew your shoes. And I already know a trick. Just to let me be your dog, please?
Man:
Tim I'm not sure what we're going for here.
Adam Sandler:
I want to be their dog.
Man:
Have you thought this through Timmy?
Adam Sandler:
Yes.
Man:
All right, Tim. That's what you want. You know I’ll back you. [sighs]
[screaming] GOOD LORD let the boy be your dog! He just wants to be loved. If you can't see this dog needs a home, well then you, my friend are a jackass!
Second Man:
Okay. That's enough said. The old man, he summed it up perfectly. You either give boy dog a home or you, you, [screaming] you miserable Nazi son of a bitch will rot in hell! And believe me. I will make sure that you get there.
Adam Sandler:
Look, I'm not going to beg you. My track record speaks for itself. I'm confident you'll make the right decision.
Narrator:
The Herlihy boy dog sitting service. Let's be friends. The Herlihy boy is man's best friend. [inaudible].
[Outro]
Links:
Canine Confidential: Why Dogs Do What They Do by Dr. Marc Bekoff
A Quick Fix for a Barking Dog by Dr. Stanley Coren (Version edited post-publication)
Original version of article can be found here.
Do Dogs Bark Unnecessarily or Excessively? by Dr. Marc Bekoff
The Herlihy Boy Dog Sitting Service (Saturday Night Live, 1994)
