drawing of woman holding puppies by Annie Grossman

04 SepEpisode 75 | The Pandemic Puppy Boom: A discussion with breeder Cherrie Mahon of River Valley Doodles

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This episode is a second conversation with Cherrie Mahon, with whom Annie spoke last year (Episode 42: Let's talk about dog breeding with Cherrie Mahon). During quarantine Cherrie, like many breeders, has been inundated with applications. She and Annie discuss how breeders are dealing with the deluge, and think about what this boom might mean in the future for both puppy mills and shelters. Annie also answers a question from a listener whose puppy is jumping up when she tries to prepare food at the kitchen counter.

Transcript:

Annie:

If you are listening to this, at least if you're listening to this around now, I'm recording this in late summer 2020. I am going to guess you fall into at least one of the following three categories, perhaps all three. You have either recently gotten a puppy, you've thought about getting a puppy, or you know someone who has gotten a puppy, or is thinking about getting a puppy. Okay, I guess that's four categories. And I think that's because puppies are the opposite of death, destruction, pandemics. They can certainly cure depression. And a good time to get a puppy is when you are going to be spending a lot of time home.

I actually got my dog when I left a desk job. I spent exactly one year as a reporter at the New York Post, and I actually wrote their wedding section. I don't know if they still have a wedding section. I wrote some other things there too, but that was my main gig. And I actually got fired. Well, it was kind of like a, I quit / You're fired situation. But the issue at hand wasn't the quality or content of my work. It was that I was instant messaging too much. That's how old I am. I remember at the time thinking, “One day, this is going to seem hilarious, I have a feeling.”

I wasn't even sending, like, sexy instant messages or anything. I wasn't talking to my boyfriend. I was either talking to other reporters who worked at other places, I think, or I was talking to my mom. And I certainly wasn't the only one instant messaging, but I guess they needed some kind of scapegoat and wanted to crack down on this practice. And Cole Allen, who was the editor in chief there at the time called me into his office. And it was pretty terrifying. I remember, he had a print out like an inch high of my instant messages.

And now here we are 15 years later, and basically all we all do is instant message. The president who's instant messaging 200 times a day, also to other journalists, and my mom. Anyway, I'm telling the story only because after I left, after my ignominious departure from what was actually probably a very good job in right wing tabloid journalism, I started working from home. I was living in a ground floor apartment and in Brooklyn at the time. It had a little garden outside, kind of the perfect place for a dog.

So I was sort of thinking a little bit about getting a dog, but then what really made it happen was a guy I had dated for a few years, a boyfriend, I was like madly in love with him. He broke up with me and I was completely devastated. And after many months he came back to town. He'd moved away, he came back to town and we went out to dinner, and I was so hopeful we’d get back together again, but then he made it very clear that's not what he wanted. And the next day I just like, I couldn't get out of bed.

I remember it was summer, and it was a really hot day and I had been crying. So my face was hot, and my air conditioner wasn't working and I was lying in bed. And I was just so hot with my like face wet, bloated, and trying to just like breathe and feeling like this is the worst day of my life. You know that feeling? [laughs]

It's funny because looking back at myself, or really looking at anyone else's anxiety and depression and the causes for those things, I always think it's hard because I always feel like, it's easy to think someone else should just get over their issues. But it's different when it's your issues.

I remember feeling so punched in the stomach, but now I look back at it and I think like, ah, girl, you should've just shook it off! Anyway, I was in real, real pain, heartbroken, and it occurred to me that if I had a puppy, I would have a reason to get out of bed in the morning. And that is how my dog Amos, who is now 15, came into my life. I'm not necessarily condoning this behavior. I don't think getting a puppy is necessarily the right thing to do for every broken hearted, newly fired 25 year old living in Brooklyn. But that's my story. And it worked out well for both of us.

And I think right now we're living in a moment where a lot of people are experiencing those two things. One, they're working at home. Not because they're getting fired for sending short messages to other people. But because the world is ending. Because of this crazy pandemic we're living through. And, I think a lot of people are depressed. Not depressed because of a breakup. Maybe I guess you could say it's a breakup with sanity and security or something. But anyway, similar emotions. And I think that puppies really can lift one's mood.

Now, if you are looking to acquire a puppy or you know someone who's looking, I think you should check out your local shelters and rescue organizations first. If they do not have puppies, definitely consider getting an older dog, especially if you are going through a rescue organization, as they often have dogs in foster homes. So you'll get a dog who, if it's been in a good foster home, you will know a little bit about that dog before it comes into your home.

However, if you have your heart set on a young puppy and you're not finding one in the shelters, then I do suggest you find a good breeder. However, it's tricky to know what a good breeder is, or if you have found one. And most of the good breeders I know of have pretty long waitlists at this point.

Today, I am offering you guys an interview I did recently with one such breeder. She is my friend Cherrie Mahon. She is one of the owners of River Valley Doodles, which is located in Rochester, New York. I interviewed her a year and a half ago, and this episode is kind of an update on her business and the industry during the pandemic.

If you are thinking about getting a puppy, do go back and listen to that episode, it is called Let's Talk about Dog Breeding with Cherrie Mahon of River Valley Doodles. And I think it's a really good starting starting point for anybody who is looking into getting a dog from a breeder. I've shared this episode with a lot of clients who are thinking about going that route.

In today's conversation, she talks to me a little bit about how people can stand out from the pack when they're trying to get a puppy, what kind of research you can do, and what kind of approach you can take to better the odds that a good breeder will pay attention to your application. And she talked about what she thinks this puppy boom may mean for the future of both dog shelters and puppy mills.

You can learn more about River Valley Doodles at rivervalleydoodles.com. They're also on Instagram @RiverValleyDoodles. Give this a listen, and at the end of the episode, I am going to be answering a question from a listener who has a puppy who is jumping up on her while she's trying to make food in the kitchen. I have a quick suggestion for how she can deal with this problem.

[intro music]

Annie:

Hey, Cherrie, how are you? How are things up in upstate New York?

Cherrie:

It's, you know, Rochester is a little different than New York. I feel so bad for all of you. You guys have, you know, apartments and stuff. Like at least I have a yard. And we’ve been very good about keeping social distancing and masks and things like that, so we have a really low rate of infection. But, you know, things are definitely different, so. In terms of puppy world, everything's great. Almost too great. So.

Annie:

Yeah, it's weird. It's like, there are these strange areas that have somehow benefited from, little pockets of the world that have benefited from mass hysteria, destruction, illness, et cetera.

Cherrie:

Yeah. Have you guys had more, because more people are getting puppies, are you up in business? Or because you know, you've had to be shut down, is it not? I'm sure online has grown some for you, but…

Annie:

Yeah. Well, we have been open in one way or another now since June, and it has been pretty busy, but there's a limit to how many dogs and people we want in the space at any one time. And also some of our staff is out of town, or some people had to leave because of the pandemic. So it's, it there's been a lot of transition.

And we've really been trying to do everything we can to do as much training online as possible, which I think we transitioned actually pretty smoothly to that. We had been wanting to do more online stuff even before COVID hit and we'd had a lot of things sort of in place, even before. So it was kind of, you know, kind of good timing, I guess. I mean, certainly yeah, one bright side is all the online learning that's happening in all directions, I think.

But another perhaps unexpected consequence is the puppy boom. So I wanted to talk to you because I feel like I can't even count how many people have reached out to me to say, we've decided to get a puppy, but we really want a non shedding dog. And all the doodle breeders don't have dogs. So what should I do? I'd like to adopt, but I don't want a dog that sheds.

And I have been at a loss of what to suggest to people. So I was curious to talk to you to hear what it's been like from your perspective. And if you have any suggestions for people who want this halcyon situation of a dog who doesn’t shed.

Cherrie:

Yeah. Obviously, I understand it. That's, that's why we like doing the doodles. We've probably received three times the amount of applications of what we normally do, and we've always had high demand. And it's been overwhelming.

Annie:

Was there like one moment where you were like, Oh my God?

Cherrie:

The beginning of April. [laughs] But it is still every day. You know, and I have marked in multiple spots on the website, we don't have puppies. I don't have any coming up available. The ones that are coming available are reserved. I have a waitlist over 75 families long, and I stopped taking names just out of fairness for them, so they can look somewhere else. And also out of fairness for mother nature, like it's totally up to her if things work out with what our plans are.

So I don't want people to be surprised if, for instance, a mom that we thought was pregnant, you know, isn't. And you know, they've been waiting for a puppy and they'd bought stuff and got planned, and then I gotta pull the rug out from underneath them. So, but yeah, probably three times my applications.

And still every day, I probably get a dozen applications. I think, you know, with that, one of the number one things, I have a couple of concerns with it. One of the number one things is it's people that are less prepared than last year. And we'll say in 2019 people were very prepared before they even submitted an application. Now they, they come and they haven't read anything yet. They haven't watched any training videos yet. They're just, “We want a puppy next week.”

Annie:

It sounds like you feel like people are making the choice to get a dog in a more rash way than before?

Cherrie:

I do. Yeah, I do. I do agree that now is a great time to raise a puppy, especially if you work from home. You know, you get more opportunity to run the puppy to the litter pan or outside, depending on how you're training your puppy. People are home to pay attention to the puppy. I do agree that it's a great time.

But I have seen a little less — some of the questions that are coming in are questions that I thought that they would know before they even apply for a puppy. You know, like, “how often do we feed a puppy” type stuff. So, I’m a little bit concerned that it's a rash decision, but I'm trying to do the best I can to shake that out. To say, you know, a dozen times before I get them to commit for sure that, you know, are you sure you're committed? What about next year when you're going to be traveling a lot? What are your plans next year for the puppy?

Annie:

Right, because people might be getting a dog for a lifestyle that is going to change.

Cherrie:

I've talked to some of my breeder friends, and it's all the same scenario. For anyone that has a decent program, it's the same scenario. I don't really talk to anyone that doesn't have a good program. So my guess is they're experiencing the same thing.

Annie:

Well, I have passed along our last conversation from last year to a lot of people who've asked me, “how do I know if this person is a good breeder?” Because I think there's some really good tips that you offer there. Do you worry that like there's more unethical breeding happening right now?

Cherrie:

I do. And I'm pretty sure that there is. You know, there's one thing that the puppy mills are good about, and that's meeting demand. And they'll do anything to make that happen. You know, they could breed a female dog on her first cycle at six, seven months old. I mean, the dog is still a baby and hasn't fully grown yet. So, I do think that they're doing things like that to meet demand.

I have heard from some of my owners that people couldn't find puppies. They went to Pennsylvania area breeders. You know, Amish, Mennonite. Some of those that are known for being puppy mills at times. And they're getting puppies from them, and it's very sad.

Annie:

Craigslist?

Cherrie:

Craigslist. Yeah. So who knows where those puppies came from? It could be from anywhere, could be even stolen puppies, which happens. So yeah, there’s a lot of problems coming with people just desperately trying to get a puppy.

Annie:

What do you tell people when they say, well, I want a rescue, but I want a non shedding dog. I don't want to be supporting breeders necessarily. I don't want to be supporting —

Cherrie:

Yeah. I mean, I think it's great if they can find that. I've actually been telling them, cause from what I understand, a lot of the New York shelters as well as upstate New York where I'm at are pretty empty. I've been telling them to look South, you know, look in Tennessee, look in Texas. Be willing to make travel arrangements for a non shedding dog from a Southern state.

They have definitely a higher number of dogs in the shelters in those areas. I mean, a lot of the rescues will actually rescue from another state. So I tell them to expand their search, you know, with geography. So.

Annie:

Do you think that it's true that people who have allergies are gonna do better with, you know, the non shedding dogs? I mean, isn't some of the allergy stuff, for instance, like based on saliva and dandruff?

Cherrie:

Yeah, so it's a myth from my research that any dog could be totally hypoallergenic. I mean, people could be allergic to the saliva and you would think, well, big deal. That's just, if the dog licks me and then maybe I'll get a rash. That's not it, the dogs lick themselves. So when you're petting the dog it could get on you. It doesn't take much for you to have an allergic reaction. And the other thing is they go outside, they get grass on them, they get pollen on them. And you're not going to give him a bath every time he comes inside. So, definitely a myth that they're hypoallergenic.

Do they do better for those with allergies? Oftentimes, yes. So those that are super curly, especially those that are super curly that maybe have like a poodle, what's it called, a fleece coat? Do better for those with allergies, but could still have an allergic reaction to a very curly dog too.

Annie:

Do you think it's a boom that has to do with dogs across the board?

Cherrie:

I do. Yeah. I mean, I do think that it's across the board. I mean, I actually have had owners who just said, well, you know, my brother-in-law wants to get a puppy, but they don't want a Goldendoodle or sheepadoodle. They want a boxer. Do you know any breeders? I've been getting that probably two times more than usual. And I do my best to try to find what I think appears to be a good breeder and call them.

Annie:

For doodles, I mean, I think we talked about this last time too, but you must have people who say like, you know, I'll pay 10 times your price. Is that happening more? I mean, do you just sometimes think maybe I should triple my price?

Cherrie:

Yeah, my family is like, Hey, you know, cause I’m in charge of that kind of stuff. So we had that conversation and I said, I'm not going to raise prices. They're going to stay the same through this. And I know that breeders have raised their prices. You know, businesses, supply and demand. So they can, and if that's what you're willing to pay for a puppy, then, you know. Okay. But I think it's better integrity wise just to keep the price the same. You know, we want to keep things fair and we don't really want to take advantage of the situation at all.

Annie:

Is the application more, for you or for other breeders, you think, more rigorous?

Cherrie:

Yeah, mine's pretty a pain in the pain to get through. And I have people commented that said, thank you so much for making us do this application. Cause it made us think through whether now is the right time for a puppy or not. Cause a lot of the questions are, you know, what is your plan for when you do go back to work? What is your plan if the puppy's nipping a lot and you have little kids, you know, what are you going to do?

And it's sort of like all these tests to make sure people have a plan for training, even if there are no group in-person puppy classes going on. Have a plan for an online program, and have a plan for when you're going back to work for the puppy before you jump in and get a puppy. So I don't know what other breeders have done, but I know mine's pretty — it's not that it's hard. It's time intensive to get through.

Annie:

Maybe, just thinking out loud, you could tell people they have to do training with every puppy they get. I guess there are some breeders who do that.

Cherrie:

I do do that. Yeah. I have 'em in the final contract that they have to have training. Even if they profess to be a dog training themselves, they have to tell me that they have some source of, you know, other training. And I understand the group classes are for the most part not going on right now. Some are doing smaller ones.

But you know, I also provide some options as well. So I make sure that they know where to look, whether it be the books I send them, your online course information. And I'll do like a couple of like setup YouTube videos, you know, how to set up for the puppy, but for ongoing training I'm encourage them —

Annie:

Well, thank you. Okay. Do you think this is going to change the industry?

Cherrie:

I do. My biggest concern for it is that next year, if things normalize and people start traveling again, my concern is that they put their puppies in shelters. You know, we have in our contract that you have to return the puppy to us so we can, you know, help rehome the puppy. You cannot put them in the shelter, and I make sure this is very clear, but I'm sure many breeders don't. And we might see a rise in dogs in shelters next year. Because people may say, Oh, wait, now this doesn't fit my lifestyle.

I do think there also will be more appreciation for dog trainers. You know, because it's sometimes hard to get one right now because they're booked up to have them come to your home. They're not necessarily doing a lot of group classes. And I think people are gonna have more struggles because they're not going to have as much assistance. And certainly the online courses are going to help, but those breeders that aren't giving out those resources, or if they're just getting a puppy from a puppy mill that doesn't give out any resources on anything, I think there's going to be more appreciation for dog trainers for certain.

I also think, boarding next year, boarding facilities are going to have higher occupancy rate. People are gonna start traveling again. So yeah, I think there's going to be some long term impacts.

Annie:

It's interesting about the trainers from my perspective — like, it sounds like we're just blowing smoke up each other's butts or something, like “People are going to appreciate you!” “No, people are going to appreciate you!” [laughs] I think people are going to appreciate breeders more because fortunately there are many laws out there now making it harder for pet stores to exist. And fortunately, I think there's more awareness about, I mean, perhaps not enough awareness, but more than there was about puppy mills and what they are and how they feed into pet stores.

So I think a lot of people want to adopt, but like you said, are finding the shelters are not necessarily welcoming them with open arms because, also fortunately, so many other people have adopted. Which leaves people, I think, wanting to buy a dog that they know has been treated humanely, raised humanely. That has ideally been raised by people looking out for its health and its families, its mother, the mother dog's best interests, et cetera, et cetera. But that will lead them to people like you who might not necessarily have puppies.

Do you think there's going to be more people who are sort of breeding on a smaller scale? Cause I feel like there must be people who are seeing this boom happen and thinking why my dog isn't fixed and she's a golden doodle.

Cherrie:

Right. Yeah, I do think so. You're in New York City, I'm in upstate New York. We're very lucky to be in a state that has inspectors on breeders. And that really leads to, you know, having breeders understand what a good level of care is. I mean the laws are pretty strict here in New York. So the breeders, in my opinion, anyways, tend to be a little more thoughtful here in New York than some of the other breeders I'm seeing in the forums and some of the other states.

So they're really spending a lot of time thinking about the program, and they're also doing a lot of guardian homes, and they're mentoring people that aren't interested in breeding. It's not a whole lot, but there's some, and these people are really engaged and trying to be educated. In other states it seems to be a little bit of a different scenario, and I don't want to put in all other states, but there is just a lot of random breeding popping up.

You know, I'll get an email from somebody saying, Hey, can we use your stud, we'll drive there from, I don't know, West Virginia. And I say, okay, well, have you done any health testing? And they’d be like, well, what's that. So, you know, things to me that are very one-on-one, that should be done, are not going on. So yeah, I think there will be a raise in that for sure.

Annie:

Well I hadn't even thought of that. Is the price for studding, going up?

Cherrie:

No, I don't actually see it going up. We don't stud outside, just it becomes, I mean, it's hard to do cause it's, you know, three or four visits, and sometimes you don't agree with the other person's program and things like that. But I know other breeders have — certain studs are, I would say, have gone up higher in pricing. Particularly if you are a red doodle that carries parties. So if you carry something that can throw out puppies with the white paws and the white chest, those are pretty pricey, like probably tripled in price in the last year or two.

Annie:

Hmm. Are there like, are there like dog sperm banks?

Cherrie:

[laughs] Yes. You can have it shipped to you.

Annie:

Am I a weirdo for even asking that question?

Cherrie:

[laughs] You can have it shipped to you. You can have it overnighted.

Annie:

But is it like online? Like you can search by like, like —

Cherrie:

No, but that's a great business idea. [laughs] Do like a Match.com. Or doggy — doggy sperm.

Annie:

I'm the idea person!

[laughing]

Cherrie:

I love it, I love it.

Annie:

I'm surprised that that doesn't exist. So that's one thing, I guess, to suggest to people — that they look at the laws of the state that they're in and make sure… I mean, are there some states that you think — you said New York, are there other states that are like, that you feel good about suggesting people look at for breeders?

Cherrie:

Yeah. New York is pretty strict, probably the strictest state.

Annie:

But if you just are breeding one dog and selling that dog's puppies, do you need licensing to do that?

Cherrie:

No. If you are going to sell more than twenty-five puppies. Twenty-five puppies out of your own, if you are selling in a guardian home scenario, like I help my mom and my sisters, then it's nine puppies. But pretty strict in New York, once you hit that mark where you're actually having a program. California's also very strict, there's not a whole lot of breeders there.

And I think everything else is pretty much a wild West. I mean, Connecticut and Massachusetts might be a little bit, and New Jersey, but Pennsylvania is just — Pennsylvania and Missouri are wide open to do whatever you want.

Annie:

Hmm. I have suggested to people that are wanting doodles specifically, but I guess other kinds of breeders too, to ask if they can be a guardian or if there are any retiring dogs that the breeder has. Do you think that's a good idea?

Cherrie:

I do. Um, it's been a little bit hard for my family so far to want to let anyone go, because they're pets in our homes. So to say, okay, we're not breeding anymore and we want to make some room, so, you know, we want to adopt out. I mean, my dog Jada, she's eight now. I mean, no way is she going anywhere. So it's hard for some breeders to do that.

Other breeders, you know, and I don't think there's a right and wrong to it. They just think differently about their program and they want to make room and think that the dog they're adopting out, the adult dog, is going to have a better life with having a family that has more time than somebody that has 10 dogs. So it's definitely a possibility. It would take a little bit of work to send emails to everybody, but I know many breeders that do that.

Annie:

What do you mean it would take work to send emails?

Cherrie:

You'd have to hunt down the breeders that you'd want to ask, all individually. You know, “do you have any dogs coming up for retirement that you would be interested in adopting out?” And you should probably tell a little bit about yourself while you're sending the email because you get one line emails all the time as a breeder, you know, so you kind of ignore those ones. And the people that take a little bit of time to explain about themselves and who they are, you tend to answer back more quickly.

Annie:

Huh. Yeah, like clearly you can afford to be a little bit picky, right?

Cherrie:

Right, yeah. Yeah.

Annie:

Great. Well, thanks for talking. I'm hoping your family is all safe and everyone's doing all right.

Cherrie:

Thank you.

Annie:

Cherrie says that she expects to be opening up her waitlist again some time next year.

A question came in from a listener named Leah. Leah writes:

My three month old shepherd mix George jumps on the counter or my thighs when we are preparing his food or giving him treats. He seems to know the cue down. I say “Down,” point to the ground and he jumps off. However, clearly it's being reinforced because it happens again. I don't give him his food treats until his paws are on the ground, but he continues to jump on me and the counter in the meantime.

He's a big boy, already 25 pounds at three months, so I'm getting scratches on my thighs, and he will soon be big enough to get anything he wants off any counter. I have listened to all your podcasts on The Training Triad and operant conditioning, and I like the idea of a Treat and Train on the floor for when I'm preparing the meals on the counter to occupy him on the floor. If you have any other tips for me, I'd greatly appreciate them. Thanks so much.

So it sounds to me like what George has probably learned is that when the humans are doing stuff with food in the kitchen, if I jump on them, I then get A, attention, and B, yummy stuff. The key is to not let him start jumping in the beginning. And the good news is he's really young, so there's no way he's really been engaging in this behavior for that long. So I actually think you'll probably have a pretty easy time teaching him to engage in a new behavior when you are in the kitchen doing stuff with food on the counter.

I suggest you select a spot in your kitchen where it's going to be okay for George to be while you are doing kitchen stuff. You can also use it when you're eating at the table or whatever. We call it like a “sticky spot.” It could be a bed, it could be a crate. It could also just be a towel on the floor, a blanket. We love using pieces of yoga mats for this kind of thing at our studio at School for the Dogs.

And this is going to be super easy to train, I think, because basically all I want you to do is put delicious stuff on that mat while you are doing stuff at the counter. You mentioned the Treat and Train, which is a remote controlled treat dispenser that I think is great for many things. It's super simple, easy to use, takes a few batteries. You can find it at storeforthedogs.com, the Treat and Train.

It works at like a radius of, I think up to 30 feet. You could fill it with dry food, Cheerios, whatever, lots of dry treats that will go in it pretty nicely. And, yeah, you could just trigger that the whole time that you were standing at the counter. Some dogs are a little wary of it at first. It makes a kind of grinding sound,, and it can make a beep, although you can turn the beep off. So, think about that. If you're at all concerned about him being worried about it, you might have to acclimate him to it.

I like using the Treat and Train just as like a socialization — in socialization with a puppy because it's like a weird object that is also a dispensing treats. It makes a weird noise and then the treat comes out. So it's like making that pairing very easily without a lot of effort. You can also put it on a timer, so you could be standing at the kitchen counter and just put on a timer. So it dispenses every 30 seconds or whatever. So yeah, I think your, your own suggestion is a good one. I would just make sure to have it be at a specific spot where it's going to be cool for him to hang out.

You could also just, you know, manually go over and put treats there every now and then. You could feed him his whole meal in ideally like a slow food bowl or some other kind of work to eat toy during those moments when you're at the kitchen counter on that mat, just make sure that you're making it a place where he really wants to be. And there should be a high rate of reinforcement happening for really very little behavior other than being on the mat or even near the mat.

And don't pay him very much attention when you're in the kitchen unless he's on the mat. If he does start to jump on you, I would just walk over to the mat and put some good stuff on it. Don't pay a lot of attention to him. And then make sure that you're replenishing his, whatever yummies you're throwing on the mat or whatever is there that's keeping him occupied, that you're replenishing it before he has a chance to come and jump on you again.

I would love to know how this goes. Why don't you send me a video update, Leah? My guess is that he is totally going to get the hang of this within, hmm, two days, maybe? Let me know. Let me know if I'm right or wrong.