06 NovEpisode 93 | School For The Dogs’ trainer Erin Whelan on how dog training changed her life
Erin Whelan was a professional French Horn Player. Then she adopted a beagle mix named Oliver and enrolled him in Puppy Kindergarten at School For The Dogs. Then she did the School For The Dogs Professional Program. Now, she is a trainer and manager at School For The Dogs. Annie, who was once her dog trainer and is now her boss, is a big Erin Whelan fan. Annie and Erin discuss switching careers, Cesar Millan's best book, what it means to teach dogs virtually, human body language, and more.
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Transcript:
Annie:
If you work at School for the Dogs, you might, at some point be approached by our boss, with your boss, asking if you would be willing to be interviewed for the School for the Dogs podcast. In this scenario, I am the boss and the person I'm interviewing today is Erin Whelan. Erin started out with us as a client and ended up doing our professional program and is now a trainer and a manager with us. She is wonderful.
I asked some of her coworkers to find adjectives to describe Erin. They said gregarious, honest, humble, fearless, compassionate, down to earth. Witty, Innovative, zealous. Funny, loyal, team player, empathetic, warm, goofy, creative.
I hope you'll enjoy this conversation with Erin. You can book a session with Erin, either at our studio or virtually at schoolforthedogs.com/Erin.
[Intro and music]
Annie:
Hello. I am here with Erin Whelan. Did I say it right?
Erin:
You did. That's very good.
Annie:
I know the H has to be sounded there.
Erin:
It doesn't have to, but as long as it’s not wheelin, I'm happy.
Annie:
Whelan. And I am super psyched to be talking to you. I've known you for quite a while now, actually.
Erin:
Yeah it’s been over six years.
Annie:
So I, gosh, there's so much to talk about, but why don't you just kind of tell the story of how you ended up at School for the Dogs? And we can go from there. And actually, why don't you start off by just explaining what you're doing now at School for the Dogs, because you've been on both sides, the client and staff side, and you've worn a lot of hats on the staff side too, so.
Erin:
Well, yeah, so right now at the moment, I am both an associate trainer and interim day school manager at School for the Dogs. So I work at day school, puppy day school. I do private sessions for puppies and basic manners, adolescents, and day training. I also teach prep school and puppy kindergarten.
Annie:
Oh my goodness. Describe what day school is for people who aren't familiar.
Erin:
So for day school and puppy day school, those are drop-off training programs. We have day schools for adult and adolescent dogs, and puppy day school. It's in the name guys, it's for puppies. And during both of those programs, the dogs go through some relaxation. They have the opportunity to play with other dogs if the moment is appropriate, they work on training foundation skills, and we also socialize them to a variety of bizarre human objects, like skateboards, vacuums, certain scary sounds and things like that. Just generally try to give them the tools that they need to survive in New York City, because this is a weird place to be for both humans and dogs, especially.
Annie:
True. True. So it's, yeah, I describ day school to people as like someone else is going to be your dog's main person for this period of time. And that person happens to be a really great dog trainer. It's kind of like a class, but you as the dog owner don't need to be there. I also sometimes describe it as like what daycare should be, right?
Erin:
Yeah. Like a very, very, I mean, I hate to call it a very high level daycare, but I mean, it does have that appeal to it certainly. I mean, we do of course want all of our day school clients to be involved in private training on the side with us so that they can sort of reinforce all the work that we do at day school. But it is nice I think for them to have a couple hours where they know that their dog is going to be in good hands, learning good things, and reinforcing a lot of good habits and behaviors. And they don't have to do anything.
Annie:
Yeah. And they're like doing stuff the whole time. Yeah, it's almost like probably more tiring..because it's only like three to five hours depending, but they're probably more tired out by the training that they do during that short period than they would be, at daycare for twice that amount of time.
Erin:
Yeah, it’s all of that mental work that they do.
Annie:
So let's talk about younger Erin, who was a French horn player!
Erin:
She was, heaven forbid. Yeah.
Annie:
Do you still play sometimes?
Erin:
You know, I don't. And in fact, I actually took my French horn back to my parents' house recently because it was taking up space, which in New York City is very valuable.
Annie:
I know and you probably weren't charging it rent.
Erin:
No, it really wasn't. And it wasn't contributing to my rent in any way. So I was not earning rent with it being in my apartment. No, I have not played in over a year, I would say, on a tour that I, I went on, but yeah.
Annie:
How did you get into playing French horn? I'm guessing it was like when you were a kid.
Erin:
Yeah. So I started playing the French horn. I wanted to start in fourth grade, but there were no school instruments available. So I started in fifth grade.
Annie:
Why French horn?
Erin:
So when I was in third grade, our band teacher — shout out to Mrs. Moody, you rock. She did a demonstration for the school of all of the different band instruments that you could choose from, which is like such a great way to get kids involved in band. And she herself was a French horn player. So needless to say, when she demoed the French horn, it sounded amazing. And I heard it and I was just like, Oh my God, that's it. I want to do that. I want, that's it. I'm going to play that. And it just, I totally fell in love with the sound of it. I think I was 14 when I decided I wanted to be a professional musician. And yeah, I went to music school at Rutgers.
Annie:
Were you in a marching band?
Erin:
I was in a marching band in high school and I hated every second of it. So they made me drum major, which is what you do when someone hates marching band, as much as I did.
Annie:
Oh, I don't even know what the drum major does.
Erin:L
The drum major is the person who conducts the marching band.
Annie:
Oh, okay. So you're like professor Harold Hill in The Music Man.
Erin:
Basically. Yeah. That was me.
Annie:
Walking backwards.
Erin:
Uh, did I do any, no, I stood on a platform like a really tall like ladder and just conducted this group of high schoolers.
Annie:
What was your favorite thing to play on the French horn?
Erin:
Oh, that's a really good question. I don't know. I had a favorite piece that I like to play, but I really liked the romantic period because I'm a sap and I like really passionate emotional music. So Ricard Strauss was my favorite composer, and I like to play a lot of his music cause it was very emotional, just like me.
Annie:
[laughs] Well, if you're emotional, you're the perfect amount of emotional.
Erin:
Thank you.
Annie:
You've never struck me as someone who's overly emotional.
Erin:
I do all my emoting in private. You are welcome.
Annie:
Did you have dogs when you were a kid?
Erin:
I did. I had a really amazing mutt, whose life and our family predated my existence, and she lived until I was about seven. She set the bar really high. Then we had a brief encounter with a beagle for about a month, not a great match for our family. He went to live on a farm, which is not a euphemism. He did in fact go to live on a farm and he was very happy. And then we had a short haired Collie who used to herd our families during parties. That was really fun. And that was the last dog I had until I adopted my little muffin Oliver here.
Annie:
Yeah. So how did Oliver end up in your life?
Erin:
So Oliver ended up in my life. I adopted with an ex partner of mine. It was just the time in our lives where we thought, yeah, dog sounds good. I had really wanted one for a long time and we were pretty stable at that point. And I thought, yeah, this is the time. So we adopted Oliver. I knew I wanted to adopt a dog. Cause that was really all I had ever known. And I would have rather paid like a $250 adoption fee rather than $4,000 for a dog.
Annie:
Where did you adopt him? And did you purposely get a beagle type dog?
Erin:
You know what? I actually, because we had that brief encounter with a beagle when I was a kid, we were in possession of a beagle for about a month who had previously belonged to some friends of ours. It's not like we just found this dog and then gave them up. We did like a trial, they were trying to rehome him because he needed more space. Did not work out with our family. So he went to live somewhere else.
But because we had had this negative experience, he was a resource guarder he bit my mom, he got off the leash with me and ran away from me. Why was I nine years old, walking a dog? That's a conversation for another day. But because of our experience with Buster, the beagle, I specifically did not want a people type dog.
And I in fact had seen Oliver, don't tell him, cover your ears, baby. I had seen him on Last Chance animal rescues website, and I went, no, he looks too much like a beagle. So I went for this other dog. His name was Huck, who looked kind of like a, I don't know if he had these like bat ears, but I think it was just the angle of the picture. He just looked adorable. So I asked about him and the rescue told me that he had already been adopted, but what I like to look at his brother Oliver.
So I was like, well, he is pretty cute. And that is how I ended up with a beagle type dog. It was not intentional, but I would be hard pressed to own another type of dog later in life. I think.
Annie:
What, what led you to Last Chance Rescue?
Annie:
Um, honestly I think it was a specific dog. It was, his name was Pepe. He looked like a Jackal. He was like a Brindle, like French bulldog Chihuahua mix or something crazy. I honestly think they call it anything a Chihuahua mix so that people will just adopt them because they don't think they're going to get too big. But he ended up not being a great fit because he didn't like kids. And I worked with kids at the time.
But I was already approved by them. Like we had already paid like an application fee and I didn't want to do that with like eight other rescues just to get denied. So I just kept looking at the dogs that they had.
I actually really liked Last Chance. They bring dogs from the South, Oliver's from South Carolina. They have a sanctuary down there for animals that can't be adopted out. They keep them on this beautiful farm that they have. And then the rest of the dogs that they bring up here live in foster homes, which I think is so important, especially with puppies, for those first few weeks of their lives.
Annie:
Yeah, sure. So what was it like bringing home the wonderful hello?
Erin:
Oh, it was hilarious. I literally walked up to his foster mom's home with like a collar and a leash and I just like leashed him up and I was like, let's go buddy. And he looked at me like, what's a leash. It was just, it was so funny. I had done so much research. I'd read all the books, I'd watched all the videos and I still knew really nothing.
Annie:
Well, where were you, where were you getting your information?
Erin:
I, I think like a lot of people in my generation, was a total Cesar Milan disciple because I didn't know any different, he's still,
Annie:
Oh– You're not anymore?
Erin:
You know, I'm not, oddly enough, we do not subscribe to pseudoscience at School for the Dogs. A hundred percent now. But I ended up, I read one of his books and it was one of the best things I ever did because it was, I can't remember the name of the book, but it was a book in which he consults with — I do give him credit for doing this. He consults with a lot of other dog trainers from different training backgrounds to give like multiple perspectives on dog training, which I thought was great.
And I discovered in that book, Dr. Ian Dunbar, who completely changed everything and like blew everything out of the water that I thought I knew about dog training. And I realized that there was such a better way to communicate with my dog than trying to intimidate or coerce them into doing what I wanted. And that was kind of what led me to positive reinforcement training. Thanks Caesar.
Annie:
Yeah. That's actually really cool. Yeah. I have to look at which book that is. I've heard about this before. I don't know if it's cause you told me about it or someone else, but yeah, that is a cool thing. Although it doesn't seem like he consulted all these people and then was like a changed man.
Erin:
No, definitely not. But I did at least give him credit for being like, you know, here's a lot of different techniques. Find what works for you. And he did even admit in the book — cause he had this meeting with Ian Dunbar and he showed him kind of how to get his dog to work for like just a tennis ball
[barking]
Oh really. Hey, come here. You were doing so good. Come here. Thank you.
But yeah, he definitely did not, I don't think, change any of his ideologies after that encounter. It doesn't sound like.
Annie:
So you and I started working together, I think pretty soon after you got Oliver.
Erin:
Indeed.
Annie:
You started right around when we were in, I think our first storefront studio or second studio total. Am I right? It was the small one on second street.
Erin
I think it was still the, what is now the acupuncture place, I think was School for the Dogs, right? Yeah. That was where I was. Yeah. As a client.
Annie:
And, how did you come to School for the Dogs? Cause you live pretty far away.
Erin:
I do. I live very far up on the West Side in almost Washington Heights. And this is something to which I have to give credit to my my former partner because he actually found School for the Dogs. It wasn't me, man. He found you guys are in a Google search I think. And we read the reviews of what everyone was saying and it seemed like you were the best in the city and we wanted the best. So we did — I don't think Kate remembers this, but Kate did our initial appointment when Oliver was a little squish. And then we did what was then I think called puppy socialization class. When it was like, by color, the classes were color coded.
Annie:
Right. Cause we have different, we used to have it like modular, instead of linear, but of course that's changed.
Erin:
It is. It has changed. I did like the colors, but I also liked the linear model. But yeah, it was an awesome experience and I just, he had learned sort of a lot ahead of time cause I had done a lot of work with him. But I just thought it was just such a valuable experience for him. And for me particularly, because it really solidified like this is kind of what I wanted to be doing with my life.
Annie:
Really. So early on with training with him. What about it appealed to you?
Erin:
I really, Hmm. What about it appealed to me? I just, I don't know. It was just something that clicked for me in a way that nothing else really ever had. And I just loved learning about behavior and learning about how I could shape my dog's behavior in a way that was really elegant and kind of nuanced, but didn't take a lot of effort and was really fun for both of us.
I just thought it was so powerful, and I felt like it gave me and him a relationship that was really based on trust, like mutual trust. And I just really wanted to give that to other people. I think that's something that really motivates me as a dog trainer is to be able to help people communicate with their animals in a way that they didn't know was possible.
Annie:
Well said.
Erin:
Thanks.
Annie:
[laughs] You had also worked with horses though, growing up. Am I wrong?
Erin:
No you are absolutely correct. I rode horses for about eight and a half years until I was around 14. I competed early on, but that got really expensive. So I just kind of rode recreationally and they are definitely my first loves in the animal kingdom, and I look forward to working with them again one day.
Annie:
I think it's interesting that horseback riding as a hobby is one that people kind of accept. I mean, you kind of generally have to have money. It has like a certain like socioeconomic you know, association. But dog training as a hobby, doesn't seem to me like something people think of as like a thing. Like you do dog training when you have a problem. But you do horseback riding because you have money and you love animals. You know what I mean?
Erin:
Yeah. And I think, and this is something I've kind of had to reconcile in recent years because I wanted to get back into horseback riding. But after spending so much time, you know, as like an R plus trainer, positive reinforcement trainer, to think of the horse training world and the way that you like literally break horses into being ridden. It just doesn't jive anymore. So I've been interested in finding, you know, like different places around the country that actually are working to change that and doing more like positive reinforcement things in the horse training world.
Cause I think there is this weird, like, I don't know, there's something about like wanting to dominate like such a big animal that I think people also find attractive. And so that’s more interesting to them. And for some reason, like just training a dog to sit politely or something like that, people really look down on, I find. Not everywhere, but I think certain people frown upon…
Annie:
Or don't think of it as like, I don't know. I think people would be surprised how many of our clients are like bankers and corporate lawyers and whatever, who at night pour themselves a glass of wine and teach their dogs to play dead.
Erin:
Yeah. [laughs]
Annie:
Whereas if they were like, I'm going to go horseback riding for the weekend and I'm training dressage or whatever, it would be like its own thing.
Erin:
I think people sometimes are surprised to realize how much science actually goes into what we do. And it's not just like some silly recreational thing. I mean like yeah. Teaching your dog to play dead is hilarious. But there was a lot of like actual, hardcore science that goes into what we do. So it's not just a hobby.
Annie:
Hardcore. But like also like, I mean I'm always thinking like how amazingly easy it is to understand. I mean, I grew up thinking I'm bad at science, which now seems hilarious to me. Cause I feel like, how can you be bad at like, I mean, even like the best scientists in the world are just figuring things out, right?
Erin:
Yeah, yeah. You can’t be bad at discovery. You just discover.
Annie:
I think it's the way our education system is set up where you feel like you're good at certain subjects. I mean also the subjects I now think are like arbitrary, you know? Cause like there's math and science and there's art and history and there's
Erin:
Drama and music and all of the things that I poured my life into and got a degree in. Yes, totally superfluous, I would say. Just kidding! But I think it did make me a good dog trainer.
Annie:
What, music?
Erin:
Yeah.
Annie:
How so?
Erin:
I think it actually helps with my timing a lot. Because there was so much counting and rhythm and having to watch like a conductor all the time. I think it's helped my clicker timing immensely.
Annie:
Oh, very interesting. Yeah. I have myself done it and I've suggested to other aspiring trainers to work with a metronome because sometimes it's hard to keep track of counting, but you can just kind of like, you know, follow the beat.
So what was it like deciding like, okay, now I'm going to become a trainer. I mean, I know in the end you ended up doing our apprenticeship. Did you look into other programs? What's the backstory there.
Erin:
That's a great question. And it actually was something I kind of struggled with for a few years because you know, I have a degree in music. I came to New York City to be a Broadway musician. Yeah, man.
Annie:
And was that your goal, to work in the pit?
Erin:
That was my goal. I wanted to be a pit musician. Cause I had done pits all through college and sort of regional stuff, but that was kind of the goal. Broadway was the goal. And it requires a lot of like just networking and like cold calling people you don't know. And like these are just not skillsets that I have. And I just kinda knew.
Annie:
Really is it a lot of like rubbing shoulders?
Erin:
Yeah. It's a lot, it's very competitive and it's super like who knows who, who's cool, who can hang. And of course like definitely you have to be talented. Like that goes without saying, but there's just a lot of skills involved that I either didn't possess or was not really interested in honing. Like I enjoyed performing, but there was a lot about being a musician that I didn't enjoy.
And I had been thinking really, as soon as I kind of started working with Oliver within the first three months of having him, I sort of knew that dog training was something I wanted to explore and give more time to. But it took me — I mean he is six now. It took me a good few years to give myself the permission to sort of let the dream of being a musician go or at least pause it for a while and allow myself to pursue something different, which may sound crazy to some people. But it took me a little while.
Annie:
That's really interesting. I think you said to me, something like that once before, and as an outsider, it seems to me like being a musician, you're not going to stop being a musician. Like you can always play, but it was the first time I thought of that, of like, Oh, you must like, I'm not explaining it well. Like I gave up one career for another career, but I didn't really feel like I have to let this one thing go in order to make this other thing happen. I mean, I guess I could have felt that way. I just, I never had that feeling.
So it's an interesting thing to think of that feeling for me. Because especially it’s like, the opportunity costs of life. You're giving your time and energy to one thing. It's hard, not everybody can figure out how to play French horn, while training dogs and make a living.
Erin:
Yeah. Yeah. I think because, I mean, I've been playing music since I was five years old and I've been playing the French horn since I was 10. And when I was 14, I decided it was what I wanted to dedicate my entire life to. So I spent a good portion of my life firmly dedicated to this idea and this identity of myself as a musician.
And I was just scared, I guess, to shift that identity a little bit and either include something else, like dog training, or not focus on music as much anymore. I was like, did I waste all that time? No, it was awesome. And I wouldn't trade it for anything, but definitely, doing the apprenticeship program at School for the Dogs was, other than adopting all of our, probably the second best thing I could have done because it definitely set me on the right path.
And I had been thinking about doing some type of certification type program. I had kind of had my heart set on KPA, the Karen Pryor Academy, which I know you're a proud graduate of. But I think just financially, I was scared away from it for a bunch of years. I was like, okay, well. I kept setting myself these dates. I'd be like, okay, well I'll enroll by this date. Okay. How about next year? Next year?
And then I was kind of pushed into really making a choice because I was in the process of losing one job and I needed to find another. And I was like, no time like the present! Let's do the apprenticeship program. And it turned out to be a great decision. Everything converged all at once.
Annie:
Was there like one specific like light bulb moment during the apprenticeship for you?
Erin:
Light bulb moment? Like in terms of..
Annie:
Just thinking about how to communicate this stuff to to other people.
Erin:
Huh. That's a really great question. I don’t know if there was a light bulb moment, but there were a lot of topics we covered that I found super interesting. I think, particularly the idea of giving an animal choice. Because even though positive reinforcement training is all about kind of tricking the animal into thinking that we're tricking them — or, no, tricking the animal into thinking that they're tricking us into giving them great stuff, which I love, I love that game.
There are still some things that we need our dogs to be able to do like grooming and handling and things like that, that even so, I feel like sometimes we force on them in a way that they don't necessarily like. And so just like things like the bucket game, and teaching a dog to opt in to certain behaviors, like, yes, I choose to have my nail nails clipped by you. I'm not submitting to the process. Like I choose to allow you to do that. I thought that was a really powerful moment for me when I started learning about those types of techniques.
Annie:
How did it change your life with Oliver?
Erin:
The apprenticeship program in general or that specific?
Annie:
The apprentice program in general.
Erin:
The apprenticeship program in general, definitely. I mean it definitely changed…I mean, I think we had a pretty good relationship in general, which I think was evident in the videos that I would submit because he was always just so happy to be a part of whatever I was doing and he loves training so much.
But I think it helped me be a lot clearer in what I was doing. It helped me quiet my body when I worked with him so that I wasn't giving him unnecessary prompts or, you know, giving him more information than was necessary for him to sort of sift through in order to figure out what I wanted. It made me a lot more patient with him because I realized that if he's not getting it, it's probably because I'm not communicating it effectively to him.
And I think it made me just a better friend, and like a better partner. Just in general, like with humans and also Oliver. Because I spend so much time trying to figure out what motivates both my dog clients and my human clients, and how to get them to do something in a way that is supportive, but also motivational. And I now use those techniques on the humans in my life.
Annie:
Well, you're the manager now, too.
Erin:
So, Hey guys, I do you too.
Annie:
Any tips for people trying to use positive reinforcement in their lives with humans?
Erin:
Yeah. Be kind. Be kind, be patient. You're always going to get someone who's just difficult for the sake of being difficult. Not that — we do not have anyone that at School for the Dogs.
Annie:
We really don't.
Erin:
We really don't, I'm not just saying that. But I think really taking the time to not get emotional about things if things aren't happening the way you want them to. And just really thinking, okay, well, how can I motivate this person to be more successful in a way that's going to make them happy and also myself happy.
Annie:
That's really. Yeah. That's well put. I mean, I feel like I'm constantly trying to figure out how to manage people better using what I know about dog training, but then a lot of the time I just like fall down on the floor and I'm like, it's too hard! I'm just not good at this!
Erin:
Well, I think almost a decade of School for the Dogs would disagree with you there.
Annie:
Yeah. Well, I think it's just like…I mean also like for me, one thing that I've learned through this journey of building this business is like, you can't be good at everything. And again, going back to like opportunity costs of life, you have to, at some point, especially as you get older and you start to feel like, Oh wait, I don't have like forever. You have to think about where you can be most valuable and give the most of yourself to the world in the best way.
But yeah, there's so many, so many similarities. I think what's so fun about dog training or, I mean, animal training in general is it's like a much more simplified version of the stuff we deal with with each other. I mean, you know basically a hundred percent of what's happened in Oliver's life. It's not like he came to you with major years of baggage or that he goes off for eight hours a day and has experiences that you don't know about. Like you control all the stuff that he likes.
Erin:
It's challenging when I meet a new dog and I know I don't have that history with them. So I try to keep things as simple as possible, but I also try to take all of that same simplicity and use it in my interactions with humans. Or, if I'm managing a group of people, for instance, like I take that simplicity of working with dogs, like how do I set the environment up in such a way that's going to set this person up for success? Or, am I saying too much? Do I need to say less, do I need to say more?
Cause you have to really think about when you're working with a dog, you have to think about every aspect, everything that's in the room around you when you're working with them and everything that you're doing. Every little twitch, your body, where are your treats? What's your right hand doing? So I try to think about that when I communicate with humans now as well. Cause I think it does make a difference.
Annie:
Yeah. Well there's so much in common between, I mean, not in common is the wrong word. Like I think if you're interested in dogs and dog training, it's not a big leap to become interested in human body language. Because dogs are talking to us, they're just not talking to us in the way we talk to each other, but humans talk to each other without words as well.
There's this great book called The Like Switch that I would recommend to you as someone who has similar interests. It's written by this FBI agent whose job was to I guess, convert people into being informants for him. And so he talks about just different things you can see in people that tell you what's going on going on in their mind.
Right around when I was, when I was reading it. I remember I went out on a date with a guy who was like biting his lip. And in that book, they talk about how that means, there's something that they’re trying to not say, which really, like, that seems so obvious. But I was out with this guy — Magnolia saying hi, hi baby. Yeah, I'm on the phone. I'm on the phone. Yeah.
Anyway, this guy after biting his lip nonstop for like 20 minutes told me that he was a recovering heroin addict. Oh goodness. I was like, Oh, I guess that's what you were like trying to not say.
Erin:
Should I say it, is this the time? I'm sure that's probably hard for him to figure out what the best time is to say that. But he wants to say it, he was honest.
Annie:
Yeah. The other thing that he talked about in this book and I think I probably, this is in psychology classes as well too.
Magnolia are you part of this interview now? Yeah. Yeah.
The other thing he talks about is like the three ingredients that you have to have in order to feel closeness to someone. You have to have two of three ingredients, they are proximity, duration, and intensity. So like either you've known someone for a long time and you've like been physically close to them. Like someone you sat next to at a desk for 10 years or, you know, someone you grew up with. Or you need to have a very intense experience with someone and you're physically to them. Like there needs to be two of those three ingredients.
And think about that all the time. And, I've been feeling that lately with work. Cause I feel like, so I feel just like extra, since COVID happened, I don't know if you feel this way too, but I just feel closer to like all the staff. Even though we all have not been in the same place. Like I just feel like going through this intense thing together has made me feel just more… You know, I've been like in staff meetings where I like, look, I'm going to cry!
Erin:
Well we very much have been in the trenches together, I think, because this really, I mean, it didn't just throw us as individuals for a loop, but like obviously this has had huge effects on the business itself. I think everyone who's kind of stuck around, you know, because they were able to, really just dedicated to kind of making sure that we all as a group really saw this through. So I agree. I’m just like very weepy over the team that we have, like all the time. And now, being in these like managerial shoes, I'm like, everyone’s great. You do such great work.
Annie:
Oh, good. I'm so glad to hear you say that too. So I don't, I don't feel quite as like crazy and emotional.
Erin:
No I told you I do all my emoting inprivate, but it does happen.
Annie:
It’s a thing. I think also, you know, Kate and Ifeel like, Oh, like this is like our baby. And like other people are caring for the baby. Like it's gotten to the point where the two of us can't care for it alone anymore. And how exciting and wonderful that we have all these other people who are in it to help the dogs. So any major success stories with clients that you've worked with that you could share?
Erin:
Any major success stories.
Annie:
Or just funny stories.
Erin:
I have a lot of funny stories, but I do, I have one major success story because they are — we're still in a transitional period right now. But I'm just so proud of these clients. They're very fresh on my mind because we just had a session together I think last week, and we've done, I think maybe like seven, upwards of like seven or nine sessions since quarantine hit.
Our little corgi Nugs is so wonderful. He's so, so wonderful. Yeah. So Nugs the corgi is a puppy that I've been seeing pretty regularly since the start of quarantine, maybe April, maybe that's when we saw each other virtually for the first time. And you know, it was just basic manners things at first, a lot of foundation behaviors, sit, down. I think he learned rollover, which was really fun.
But he went through some transitions in his life. He moved homes. He spent time out of state, came back to New York, and developed a level of leash reactivity that was pretty difficult for his guardians to understand and manage.
Annie:
I think this is happening more and more, where people got — I should say it is happening. I've now heard of more than a handful of people who got puppies during quarantine when they were living in some rural part of the country. And now their puppies are adolescent age and in New York City. And that's really fricking hard, Right?
Erin:
It's really fricking hard. And I think for Nugs, it was a combination of a lot of different things. He did have an incident. I don't remember if it was on leash or if it was at a dog park, but he had a bad experience with a dog. I think that has definitely contributed to a lot of his reactivity.
And at first we weren't sure if the reactivity was motivated by like a play frustration, I want to get to that dog and I want to play with them, but I can't and I'm mad. Or if it was, I'm afraid of you because I got hurt once, please stay away from me. But we did a yard evaluation for them, and he has been coming to yard. And he has been making a lot of progress with his off-leash interactions with other dogs.
He's still a little insecure. And then once he gets comfortable, he doesn't quite know how to politely engage with the other dogs. He's just like a typical like dude teenage dog, who's like a little bit self aware and scared of things. But he was reactive to like the jingling of dog collars. He couldn't be outside for any longer than like five minutes because he was just barking his head off at everything. And he's just, he's done such good work. And his guardians have been really diligent about managing his life in such a way that his stress levels are now so low on a regular basis that he's reacting to things far less.
And we're actually able to start doing some real work, getting him happy about seeing these things that previously made him feel uncomfortable. So I'm just so happy with Nugs and his people. They're awesome and really dedicated to helping that little guy. So I'm very pleased to have been a part of their journey.
Annie:
That's awesome. How has it been transitioning to teaching both private lessons and classes online?
Erin:
You know, I was going to do it either way cause what I signed up for, but I was definitely an internal naysayer at first. And I've been very open with this with clients as well about this when they're kind of like waffling in between, do I take an online class or don't I take the online class?
If it’s the only option you have, take the online class. I went into it thinking it was going to be too hard, too impractical, not enough room to demo. It's been great. I mean, all of my online classes have been, I feel pretty successful. [Barking in background] Oliver agrees because he was my demo dog.
I feel like in a way I was almost closer with those students because I made such an effort to make us all feel like we were connected and like we were actually in the same room. So I thought it was great and I love that we've been doing the virtual training. I really hope that it continues in the future because we've gotten to work with people all over the world and help dogs that we never would have met because they didn't have access to us.
Annie:
Yeah. It really is like one of the weird blessing of COVID.
Erin:
Thanks, COVID.
Annie:
Thanks, mass death and destruction.
Erin:
Right. I mean there's just so many horrible things that have happened and so many people are suffering, but it's like I will take that one.
Annie:
Yeah. All right. Well, I'm curious what your family's reaction was to you saying, Hey, I'm going to now become a trainer.
Erin:
[laughs] So I didn't tell them for like a while. I didn't tell them for a couple months because I was in this weird transitional period where I was in between jobs. I didn't quite know what I was doing. I had just signed a new lease. Like everything was very up in the air. And I felt like if all these things were uncertain and then I throw into it, Hey, I'm gonna do this apprenticeship, but like, I don't know how I'm going to pay for it. And I don't know if I'm going to get a job at the end of it. Cool. Right?
No, like you can't tell your parents that when you're 32 and like you're supposed to be stable, nobody wants to hear that. So I definitely waited for a couple months into it and just like slowly started kind of dropping hints and stuff. And when I eventually told them I wouldn't say that there was a huge like interest level in it. It was just like, Oh, you're doing that, sounds fun, I guess, change of subject.
But now that it's transformed into a job and I've been doing it for a while and they see how happy it makes me, I think that they are a lot more enthusiastic about it. My parents just want me to be happy. So if I could do that and also pay my bills, they're absolutely pleased as punch.
Annie:
Where do you see your dog training career growing right now? Where do you see yourself in the next five years?
Erin:
It's such a hard thing to imagine. It sounds so cheesy, but I really just want to keep getting better at what I do. And I want my skill levels to increase so that when I get a client that maybe a year ago, I felt a little wishy-washy on, I now feel confident that I can help that person. So yeah, I really, I just want to get better at what I do.
And I want to start working with other species a little bit more. I was supposed to go to Santa Fe in July to go to the Villanova training center, which is a positive reinforcement training center for horses. And I was going to do like a weekend intensive there. Canceled due to COVID, bummer. But stuff like that. I'm hoping to do a little bit more of.
Annie:
How about some pig training?
Erin:
I’d love to train pigs.
Annie:
There's a pig in my neighborhood and I think they'd be keen. They'd be happy to bring their pig over.
Erin:
I want to train pigs. I want to train everything. I tried to do some training with my leopard gecko before she passed. She wasn’t really into it. Yeah. Couldn't figure out what motivated the gecko. Other than me leaving her alone.
Annie:
Aww. Herbie Jane, right? You loved her so much.
Erin:
I did Herbie Jane. I did. She was, she was the light of my life. [Dog barking] I get it, sir. You're jealous. Well timed, very well timed.
Annie:
Well it's so nice to talk to you, have the chance to catch up with you. It's my great pleasure being your boss.
Erin:
Aw. Thank you.
Annie:
And I couldn't be happier to have you
[dog whining]
Erin:
And Oliver, yes.
Annie:
And Oliver, Hi Oliver. To have you on the team. And also it occurs to me when we're talking about the French horn. As a performer, like there's so much — teaching is a form of performance. Don't you think?
Erin:
Yeah. I mean it is, and I have always lived for the applause and I continue to live for the applause. So I think I personally find my sessions and my classes to be very theatrical when it's appropriate, and very like, sort of dramatic. But you know, when it comes down to the training, like it's very quiet and I think it's an interesting contrast for anyone who watches me train. Cause it's like, you can be that quiet? You haven't spoken in like 30 seconds, what's happening. But it is, it is definitely a bit of a performance.
Annie:
A bit of a performance, like you know generally where things need to go. But at the end of the day, it's just like you in front of a bunch of people, you know?
Erin:
Yeah. I taught for a long time and a lot of different scenarios, but I was always adamant that I never want it to be a public school music teacher. That was not ever something that I saw myself doing because I just don't. I mean, same place every day, same people, same time. Like I can't do it too much.
But I do remember when I had told my parents finally that I was doing this apprenticeship at School for the Dogs. My dad who says very little took a couple minutes and then he said, so I guess you did want to be a teacher after all, if you just didn't want to teach kids. And I was like, well kind of, I do — most of what I do is teaching humans. Teaching humans how to teach dogs. So.
Annie:
That's true. But it's a different kind of teacher. I hate, you know, I really hated school. I worked hard as a student, but I didn't love it. And I remember thinking very clearly, I don't understand why anybody would want to be a teacher and have to commit to going to school for their entire lives. And so now I remind myself all the time, how kind of hilarious it is now that I have my own school.
Erin:
Right. So it's so ironic
Annie:
But like a school the way I think school should be. Where like the students are like super psyched to get there. And I don't know, maybe they just need to use food in the regular schools. [laughs]
Erin:
I mean, maybe! I think it's just that thing that we were talking about earlier. Where, I don't know, and I understand how hard pressed teachers are to have any leeway, you know, given the curriculum that they have. But I don't know how much time goes into figuring out what motivates each individual student. I think it's just like, let's all hang on together on this life raft, take the test and then graduate. Oh my God. Like, let's just get through.
If they had the luxury of sitting down and coming up with individual training plans for each human student and figuring out what their reinforcers were I think it would be a different place, for sure.
Annie:
It's negative reinforcement, it’s do this or else. Yeah, it's interesting and sad because I think it could be so much more fun. But anyway, thanks for taking the time to talk and let's do this again soon.
Erin:
Bye!
[Music]
Links:
Apprenticeship Program at School for the Dogs
The Like Switch by Jack Schafer, Marvin Karlins
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